The creepy cult of modern faux liberalism
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General discussions
Forum Description: Discuss any topic at all that is not music-related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=104777
Printed Date: December 29 2024 at 05:00 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The creepy cult of modern faux liberalism
Posted By: Blacksword
Subject: The creepy cult of modern faux liberalism
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 08:41
TRIGGER WARNING!! - MAY UPSET THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN DOG TRAINED TO BE OVER SENSITIVE.
Recently I watched students surround a respected professor at Yale demanding an apology from him for endorsing Halloween, and suggesting that those offended by some peoples costumes should merely turn away.
The professor calmly tried to explain his position which was essentially based in inclusivity, but this induced what can only be described as a hysterical screaming panic attack in one intense young woman, whose words of venomous condemnation evoked a round of "jazz hands" applause from the zombified crowd. Just to be clear "jazz hands" is basically clicking ones fingers instead of clapping to show appreciation, so as not to induce anxiety in others...
This is just one example of the weird and darkly ironic authoritarian behaviour of the new cult of modern liberalism being installed and encouraged in the young.
Does anyone else think there is something unsavoury and dubious going on, and that the world is essentially going mad??
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
|
Replies:
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 09:03
Blacksword wrote:
Does anyone else think there is something unsavoury and dubious going on, and that the world is essentially going mad??
|
I'm with you 100% on this. I found this story, and what some of these students say, highly disturbing. It's like there is some mass mental derangement. What are we doing to our children to have them be this emotionally fragile?
|
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 09:42
Blacksword wrote:
Recently I watched students surround a respected professor at Yale demanding an apology from him for endorsing Halloween, and suggesting that those offended by some peoples costumes should merely turn away. | Oh, you mean if I show up as JFK with a bullethole in my forehead, those kids are gonna grill me? ...
I'm a liberal myself, but this kind of crap, as you said, is faux liberalism. I don't know if it's genetic or taught to a child, but if it is inevitable, just ignore them ... or tell them that they've failed as intelligent human beings and they can go make their own country ... ... that their behavior is just as moronic as racism or sexism or homophobia, and that there is no malicious intent behind me showing up as JFK with a bullethole in my head.
|
Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 09:45
All modern liberalism is faux. Classical liberalism is where it's at.
-------------
Time always wins.
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 09:55
^^^ I agree in principle.
Some of these people need to look up the actual definition of liberal, but then again I don't know if they actually do regard themselves as liberal, or just self appointed moral guardians.
I'm not sure where it all comes from but I suspect a combination of 'hands off' 'liberal' parenting without boundaries, and the generation of me me me is to blame.
There is this awful woman on one of your news channels. I can't remember her name (Melissa something..?) Who is a complete faux liberal ghoul. She recently jumped down some guys throat live on air because he referred to some democrat potential presidential hopeful as 'hard working' She said she agreed he was a strong candidate but it was wrong to call him hard working because he didn't work hard compared to black people working in cotton fields 150 years ago or whatever. She spoke with that same kind of hysterical, breathless timbre you here the girl at Yale squawking in, as if she was desperately replaying some script she had read over and over.
I'm growing just as weary of faux liberal zombies as I am of right wing lunatics. They all deserve each other.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
|
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 10:46
https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what-s-really-going-on-at-yale-6bdbbeeb57a6" rel="nofollow - https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what-s-really-going-on-at-yale-6bdbbeeb57a6
|
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 10:54
I believe this type of thinking is put into children's heads as early as elementary school.This new form of liberalism doesn't come from the students, it comes from school boards and school districts. By the time they get to college most of them are completely programmed.
|
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 10:55
A Person wrote:
https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what-s-really-going-on-at-yale-6bdbbeeb57a6" rel="nofollow - https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what-s-really-going-on-at-yale-6bdbbeeb57a6 |
"an http://genius.com/8083363" rel="nofollow - email
sent by Professor Erika Christakis, which suggested that people should
feel free to wear culturally insensitive costumes on Halloween."
That's a total mischaracterization of her e-mail.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/" rel="nofollow - http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/
“We simply ask that our existences not be invalidated on campus,” the letter says, catastrophizing.
Please read this slowly, and let it soak in that there are people that actually feel that their existence is invalidated by a Halloween costume.
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 10:57
It's disgusting. It's sad to be associated with these completely un-liberal people who just use that term to feel good about themselves for being upset about everything and feeling entitled to everything. The same when "liberals" who prefer to stop free speech because it might offend someone. I am not that type.
These are just young selfish idiots who use different tactics to justify their selfishness.
-------------
|
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 10:57
BTW, I completely agree with Blacksword's statement. I'm just as tired of the far left as I am of the far right.
|
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:02
TeleStrat wrote:
I believe this type of thinking is put into children's heads as early as elementary school.This new form of liberalism doesn't come from the students, it comes from school boards and school districts. By the time they get to college most of them are completely programmed.
|
Hmm...programmed...You mean also like the right wing Bible thumpers who love god and country and say you must also or you are a godless liberal..?
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:20
^Those are terrible. Those are the worst. But some "liberals" aren't much better when they act like it's their way or no way at all. It's ridiculous that "liberals" restrain free speech. True liberals will defend the right of people to express themselves above their self-entitlement and their need to feel good about their privileges (these are college students in an expensive University. They are privileged).
-------------
|
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:24
Blacksword wrote:
TRIGGER WARNING!! - MAY UPSET THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN DOG TRAINED TO BE OVER SENSITIVE.
Recently I watched students surround a respected professor at Yale demanding an apology from him for endorsing Halloween, and suggesting that those offended by some peoples costumes should merely turn away.
The professor calmly tried to explain his position which was essentially based in inclusivity, but this induced what can only be described as a hysterical screaming panic attack in one intense young woman, whose words of venomous condemnation evoked a round of "jazz hands" applause from the zombified crowd. Just to be clear "jazz hands" is basically clicking ones fingers instead of clapping to show appreciation, so as not to induce anxiety in others...
This is just one example of the weird and darkly ironic authoritarian behaviour of the new cult of modern liberalism being installed and encouraged in the young.
Does anyone else think there is something unsavoury and dubious going on, and that the world is essentially going mad?? |
Maybe I am dumb, but I don't see any liberalism in this, neither genuine nor faux.
-------------
BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
|
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:25
^^^ That's exactly what I mean. But I see this happening in schools rather than in the home.
I had to edit to add a ^
|
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:34
To quote from Wikipedia:
Liberalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the ideology of liberalism. For local differences in its meaning, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_by_country" rel="nofollow - Liberalism by country .
"Liberals" redirects here. For other uses, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_%28disambiguation%29" rel="nofollow - Liberal (disambiguation) .
Part of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Liberalism" rel="nofollow - a series on |
Liberalism |
|
Schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#" rel="nofollow - [show]
|
Ideas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#" rel="nofollow - [show]
|
Variants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#" rel="nofollow - [show]
|
People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#" rel="nofollow - [show]
|
Organizations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#" rel="nofollow - [show]
|
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yellow_flag_waving.svg" rel="nofollow"> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Liberalism" rel="nofollow - Liberalism portal
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_coloured_voting_box.svg" rel="nofollow"> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Politics" rel="nofollow - Politics portal
|
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Liberalism_sidebar" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Liberalism_sidebar" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Liberalism_sidebar&action=edit" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#cite_note-1" rel="nofollow - [1] The former principle is stressed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism" rel="nofollow - classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism" rel="nofollow - social liberalism . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#cite_note-2" rel="nofollow - [2]
Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding
of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such
as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech" rel="nofollow - freedom of speech , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press" rel="nofollow - freedom of the press , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion" rel="nofollow - freedom of religion , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market" rel="nofollow - free markets , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_rights" rel="nofollow - civil rights , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy" rel="nofollow - democratic societies , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism" rel="nofollow - secular governments , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalism_%28politics%29" rel="nofollow - international cooperation
Now where is any of this in the example, genuine or faux?
-------------
BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:37
Here in the US sadly you get to call yourself liberal if you can get sufficiently upset about something and post it on youtube or twitter these days...
-------------
|
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:39
The T wrote:
Here in the US sadly you get to call yourself liberal if you can get sufficiently upset about something and post it on youtube or twitter these days...
|
Indeed. Our current biggest outrage is the color of a coffee cup. It's hard not to feel that this society is ultimately doomed.
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:42
^Well that outrage comes from the (supposedly) other end of the spectrum (the religious loonies) but it's basically the same just with a different perspective: people getting upset about supposed offenses to entire groups, so that they feel morally superior.
-------------
|
Posted By: *frinspar*
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:43
As always, I blame the parents first. This is the first of the spoiled, unrealistic "everyone gets a trophy" generations which we now have to contend with. They've been taught that the world favors them and that everything should be fair and how they demand things to be so they don't have to deal with icky, bad things. They're all finally of the age where their voices can be heard. Blech.
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:44
And I come to expect religious nuts getting crazy over "wars on Christmas" and such but it's sad and worrying when the ones getting all foamy on the mouth are supposedly "liberal" college students.
-------------
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:44
For these people, being "liberal" is not having a set of beliefs but just a tag they can wear
-------------
|
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:47
being from the USA myself I know what you mean. I just told Friede that people in the USA feel liberal when they say "F*** the politicians"
-------------
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:51
^You couldn't have said it better . And then ask them to give you one proper idea and they will just repeat "f**k the politicians"
-------------
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:53
BaldFriede wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
TRIGGER WARNING!! - MAY UPSET THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN DOG TRAINED TO BE OVER SENSITIVE.
Recently I watched students surround a respected professor at Yale demanding an apology from him for endorsing Halloween, and suggesting that those offended by some peoples costumes should merely turn away.
The professor calmly tried to explain his position which was essentially based in inclusivity, but this induced what can only be described as a hysterical screaming panic attack in one intense young woman, whose words of venomous condemnation evoked a round of "jazz hands" applause from the zombified crowd. Just to be clear "jazz hands" is basically clicking ones fingers instead of clapping to show appreciation, so as not to induce anxiety in others...
This is just one example of the weird and darkly ironic authoritarian behaviour of the new cult of modern liberalism being installed and encouraged in the young.
Does anyone else think there is something unsavoury and dubious going on, and that the world is essentially going mad?? |
Maybe I am dumb, but I don't see any liberalism in this, neither genuine nor faux.
|
No your not dumb at all. They are not liberals at all. Their outlook is authoritarian which is the opposite. I expect THEY regard temselves as liberal. They are part of whats wrong with the world right now. IMO.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 11:58
That also happens when your universities stop being centers for discussion and thinking and become expensive hotels with a sports team attached to them.
-------------
|
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:03
whats differs from liberal and libertarian?
-------------
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:06
Libertarians will say that freedom is absence of any restrictions and regulations thus leaving all outcomes to the free market.
Liberals in the US sense will want the government to address the bad social outcomes of capitalism.
-------------
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:08
Icarium wrote:
whats differs from liberal and libertarian? |
Technically no difference I guess.
In reality I guess the difference is libertarians want everything run by the free market, while liberals want some government control to mitigate what they beieve would be the negative impact of a free market running everything. Then there are pereipheral differences lke opposition to guns which seems the 'liberal' position, but not often the libertarain position.
I think..
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
|
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:19
Just a thought: What if all these seemingly dumb kids are only
pretending to be offended by everything because they're getting PAID by
the evil Zionists who own the media to get all sensible opinions censored and pave way for a New
World ORdeR?!
|
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:19
one is a basterd son of the other right how are the political opinion on toll road paymentinmUS or UK
-------------
|
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:20
U.s. politics, ridiculous. The politicians lie, the media distorts and it all just revolves around bullsh*t. Jeb Bush would if given the opportunity to go back in time would kill baby Hitler. That is real nice Jeb but what we need to really know beforehand is if you are elected president what kind of double dealing, underhanded bullsh*t will you bring to the table. Hard as an American to be well informed when most all of government dealings are lies and smoke and mirrors.
|
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:24
Blacksword wrote:
Icarium wrote:
whats differs from liberal and libertarian? |
Technically no difference I guess.
In reality I guess the difference is libertarians want everything run by the free market, while liberals want some government control to mitigate what they beieve would be the negative impact of a free market running everything. Then there are pereipheral differences lke opposition to guns which seems the 'liberal' position, but not often the libertarain position.
I think.. |
That is the way it is used today, but originally the word libertarian was more synonymous with socialism. IIRC, the word was coined by a French anarcho-communist.
|
Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:30
The students in the OP's post need to be told in no uncertain terms:
------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
|
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:33
The modern left only exists because of freedom of speech, freedom of association, and other related Western ideals. This is why they want to abolish those rights.
|
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:34
timothy leary wrote:
U.s. politics, ridiculous. The politicians lie, the media distorts and it all just revolves around bullsh*t. Jeb Bush would if given the opportunity to go back in time would kill baby Hitler. That is real nice Jeb but what we need to really know beforehand is if you are elected president what kind of double dealing, underhanded bullsh*t will you bring to the table. Hard as an American to be well informed when most all of government dealings are lies and smoke and mirrors. |
Jeb is polling at like 5%, you have nothing to worry about
|
Posted By: tbonson04
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 16:35
I read an interesting article on
this event in The Atlantic called The New Intolerance of Student Activism. It talks about society developing
the notion that disagreement is tantamount to disrespect. The students did not
get the immediate satisfaction and subsequent shaming of a
faculty member, so they allowed emotion to dictate their behavior. It's sad that liberal values are being muddled by so called "social justice warriors" who believe blowing things out of proportion and trying to shame individuals with different values is a proper way to conduct themselves. This is the article if a anyone's interested http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/" rel="nofollow - http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/
|
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 16:50
The creepy cult of modern faux liberalism? As opposed to the sanguine sect of modern pseudo-conservatives? Those that would even bash Ronald Reagan as a godless lefty?
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 18:09
The Dark Elf wrote:
The creepy cult of modern faux liberalism? As opposed to the sanguine sect of modern pseudo-conservatives? Those that would even bash Ronald Reagan as a godless lefty? | Those who clap rabidly when a GOP candidate says he would fire IRS agents if he was president? This who don't give a single f**k about people? Yes. Faux liberals are annoying as hell but disgusting pseudo-conservative are way worse.
-------------
|
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 18:43
The T wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
The creepy cult of modern faux liberalism? As opposed to the sanguine sect of modern pseudo-conservatives? Those that would even bash Ronald Reagan as a godless lefty? | Those who clap rabidly when a GOP candidate says he would fire IRS agents if he was president? This who don't give a single f**k about people? Yes. Faux liberals are annoying as hell but disgusting pseudo-conservative are way worse. |
Actually, Teo, the problem with the U.S. at present is there is an embarrassingly asinine left and an grossly ignorant right, and no one supporting those in the middle, like myself, who have liberal views regarding women's right and the environment, and also believe in fiscal responsibility (fiscal responsibility not equaling failed trickle-down economics and tax cuts for corporations and the ultra-rich in this case).
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
|
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 18:45
actually, I've gotten to the stage in life where just about everyone, right, left, or center, is pissing me off. Common sense seems to have left the building entirely. The new thing that really freaks me out is teachers having to give warnings when a subject might be a "trigger" for a student who has had trauma in their life that could be triggered by that subject. Which means anyone on any subject, so apparently professors can't teach any subject without tiptoeing around it. I do agree that the right is worse, but I'm finding the left increasingly hard to live with as well.
|
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 19:19
Icarium wrote:
whats differs from liberal and libertarian? | In the US, liberalism is pretty much social liberalism and libertarianism is classical liberalism.
They are also used as synonyms for "left" and "right," but on a significantly reduced spectrum. When people refer to "those crazy right left/right wingers," they are talking about people who aren't that far away from each other but a using the two prominent parties as poles between which everything falls.
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
|
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 19:42
emigre80 wrote:
actually, I've gotten to the stage in life where just about everyone, right, left, or center, is pissing me off. Common sense seems to have left the building entirely. The new thing that really freaks me out is teachers having to give warnings when a subject might be a "trigger" for a student who has had trauma in their life that could be triggered by that subject. Which means anyone on any subject, so apparently professors can't teach any subject without tiptoeing around it. I do agree that the right is worse, but I'm finding the left increasingly hard to live with as well.
|
The rising vortex of inane political correctness will eventually leave us with only monosyllabic platitudes. Perhaps some grunts and nods.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
|
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 19:51
The Dark Elf wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
actually, I've gotten to the stage in life where just about everyone, right, left, or center, is pissing me off. Common sense seems to have left the building entirely. The new thing that really freaks me out is teachers having to give warnings when a subject might be a "trigger" for a student who has had trauma in their life that could be triggered by that subject. Which means anyone on any subject, so apparently professors can't teach any subject without tiptoeing around it. I do agree that the right is worse, but I'm finding the left increasingly hard to live with as well.
|
The rising vortex of inane political correctness will eventually leave us with only monosyllabic platitudes. Perhaps some grunts and nods. | Progress.
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
|
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 19:55
once Halloween costumes become a PC issue, I'm throwing in the towel.
|
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 19:56
emigre80 wrote:
once Halloween costumes become a PC issue, I'm throwing in the towel. |
Perhaps you can wear a Tipper Gore costume?
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
|
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 20:08
^^You must not have Facebook, because it most definitely has become a PC issue. For good and bad reasons. For one, the people who seek to discourage certain costumes don't seem to get that a form of appropriation is an inextricable part of any sort of cultural exchange and they don't distinguish between that and when it's used to mock or caricature. Dressing like a Native American, for instance, based on faulty media portrayals of the race, would be in the latter category, where dressing as Disney's Pocahontas would not. One makes a broad statement about a race and the other is an innocuous homage to a fictional or fictionalized individual.
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
|
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 20:16
Polymorphia wrote:
^^You must not have Facebook, because it most definitely has become a PC issue. For good and bad reasons. For one, the people who seek to discourage certain costumes don't seem to get that a form of appropriation is an inextricable part of any sort of cultural exchange and they don't distinguish between that and when it's used to mock or caricature. Dressing like a Native American, for instance, based on faulty media portrayals of the race, would be in the latter category, where dressing as Disney's Pocahontas would not. One makes a broad statement about a race and the other is an innocuous homage to a fictional or fictionalized individual.
|
And yet the Wayan Brothers can wear whiteface and make an entire movie denigrating "White Chicks", and not receive the same violent disapproval a white actor would get hamming it up in blackface.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
|
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 20:50
The Dark Elf wrote:
Polymorphia wrote:
^^You must not have Facebook, because it most definitely has become a PC issue. For good and bad reasons. For one, the people who seek to discourage certain costumes don't seem to get that a form of appropriation is an inextricable part of any sort of cultural exchange and they don't distinguish between that and when it's used to mock or caricature. Dressing like a Native American, for instance, based on faulty media portrayals of the race, would be in the latter category, where dressing as Disney's Pocahontas would not. One makes a broad statement about a race and the other is an innocuous homage to a fictional or fictionalized individual.
|
And yet the Wayan Brothers can wear whiteface and make an entire movie denigrating "White Chicks", and not receive the same violent disapproval a white actor would get hamming it up in blackface. | Like Tropic Thunder? Although White Chicks is significantly more racist and sexist. I've not heard complaints about either. I think that people make allowance for that kind of comedy with the understanding that it's labelled as comedy because it's exaggerated and absurd.
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 20:57
This is what happens when whether one is or isn't a liberal is decided merely by their allegiance to/support of certain ideological causes e.g. LGBT rights. The most important principle a liberal should abide by is to live and let live and not question another's choices in so far as they are ethical and that's long forgotten by the new age liberal who bristles with anger as he/she loudly proclaims, "I AM A LIBERAL!!!!!"
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 21:03
tbonson04 wrote:
I read an interesting article on
this event in The Atlantic called The New Intolerance of Student Activism. It talks about society developing
the notion that disagreement is tantamount to disrespect. The students did not
get the immediate satisfaction and subsequent shaming of a
faculty member, so they allowed emotion to dictate their behavior. It's sad that liberal values are being muddled by so called "social justice warriors" who believe blowing things out of proportion and trying to shame individuals with different values is a proper way to conduct themselves. This is the article if a anyone's interested http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/" rel="nofollow - http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/ |
In a way, it is the logical culmination of the journey that began with progressivism breaking off from classical liberalism and taking a position that intervention would have to be sought to ensure equitable outcomes and dignity blah blah for all. By the by, in keeping with the PC spirit of the times, the blah blah is not meant to make light of those motives but simply that at 8 in the morning I can't possibly remember what all it would or would not encompass. Now intervention has gone so far as to meddle with everyday lives and muzzle our mouths. It could bring something positive to the table in the sense that, tired of ultra militant 'liberals', people finally stop seeing all classical liberals as right wing terrors.
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 21:44
I just watched the video and the only "hysterical" ones are the people in this thread who seem to have absolutely no concept of how true, deep anger manifests itself in young people, particularly students. To believe that the yelling student is somehow misled or ~ the dumbest notion posted here, "spoiled" ~ is to completely miss the nature of a progressive society, of which the US most certainly is, despite a strong conservative voting body. This little scuffle is nothing compared to the events of the civil rights movement of forty years ago. Should the student have conducted herself better? Probably, but anger is not something to be afraid of, it is a normal and very important part of an open society.
I'm sorry, most of the posts here are sad, misinformed, reactionary nonsense that is completely out of touch with the course of real human events. Upset by this? Give me a break and grow some balls. If this confrontation upsets you, you have bigger problems than harping on some sensational news event.. I would've screamed at the dude myself if I felt so inclined. How does this aging, out-of-touch faculty member sleep at night?-- I'd like to know to.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 22:04
Atavachron wrote:
I just watched the video and the only "hysterical" ones are the people in this thread who seem to have absolutely no concept of how true, deep anger manifests itself in young people, particularly students. To believe that the yelling student is somehow misled or ~ the dumbest notion posted here, "spoiled" ~ is to completely miss the nature of a progressive society, of which the US most certainly is, despite a strong conservative voting body. This little scuffle is nothing compared to the events of the civil rights movement of forty years ago. Should the student have conducted herself better? Probably, but anger is not something to be afraid of, it is a normal and very important part of an open society.
I'm sorry, most of the posts here are sad, misinformed, reactionary nonsense that is completely out of touch with the course of real human events. Upset by this? Give me a break and grow some balls. If this confrontation upsets you, you have bigger problems than harping on some sensational news event.. I would've screamed at the dude myself if I felt so inclined. How does this aging, out-of-touch faculty member sleep at night?-- I'd like to know to.
|
Misguided anger. Black lives matter, but only in regards to a white policeman shooting a black, usually a criminal. Misguided in the fact that, rather than rioting against a single police action, nothing is done regarding the vastly higher percentage of black deaths that are perpetrated by other blacks -- 93% of the killings. Ignore the fact that white perpetrators are more often shot than blacks by police (49% white, 30% black, 19% Hispanic, etc.), the black leaders, or at least the black demagogues like Sharpton feast like vultures on misplaced sensationalism, but no one has the balls to call a spade a spade....ummm....if I can use that phrase in this context. Concentrate on the real problem, devote your energy to saving your own, stop the drive-bys, end the gang wars, grow the f**k up and stop blaming everyone else for your problems. Don't go rabid about a silly costume, consider instead the continual use of the word "nigger" in your own daily speech, and quit glorifying the sort of thug attitude which is rampant among your youth and glorified in your culture.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 22:11
^ Complete reactionary hogwash. You're damn right black lives matter in regards to a white cop shooting a black man. Black-on-black violence? What about it?
This demonstrates an utter misunderstanding of human nature and how things work. Oh and don't be so calm and civil. I can feel your anger, young Jedi, so don't be bothered by or afraid of it. A lot of people have a whole lot of growing up to do, and it is a painful process that I hope all survive.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: tbonson04
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 22:16
Atavachron wrote:
I just watched the video and the only "hysterical" ones are the people in this thread who seem to have absolutely no concept of how true, deep anger manifests itself in young people, particularly students. To believe that the yelling student is somehow misled or ~ the dumbest notion posted here, "spoiled" ~ is to completely miss the nature of a progressive society, of which the US most certainly is, despite a strong conservative voting body. This little scuffle is nothing compared to the events of the civil rights movement of forty years ago. Should the student have conducted herself better? Probably, but anger is not something to be afraid of, it is a normal and very important part of an open society.
I'm sorry, most of the posts here are sad, misinformed, reactionary nonsense that is completely out of touch with the course of real human events. Upset by this? Give me a break and grow some balls. If this confrontation upsets you, you have bigger problems than harping on some sensational news event.. I would've screamed at the dude myself if I felt so inclined. How does this aging, out-of-touch faculty member sleep at night?-- I'd like to know to.
|
Just because you're always on the opposite side of an issue in a thread, doesn't make you an effective critical thinker. "Misinformed reactionary nonsense" ? Please, tell me what is your background on this issue that makes you such an expert. How informed is your opinion? This issue brings to light some of the deep seeded problems facing race, class, and youth. If you can't see that, then do us all a favor and opt out of society.
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 22:36
Atavachron wrote:
I just watched the video and the only "hysterical" ones are the people in this thread who seem to have absolutely no concept of how true, deep anger manifests itself in young people, particularly students. To believe that the yelling student is somehow misled or ~ the dumbest notion posted here, "spoiled" ~ is to completely miss the nature of a progressive society, of which the US most certainly is, despite a strong conservative voting body. This little scuffle is nothing compared to the events of the civil rights movement of forty years ago. Should the student have conducted herself better? Probably, but anger is not something to be afraid of, it is a normal and very important part of an open society.
|
Indeed, it is nothing; that's painfully evident. In the words of S Wonder, "Why must my colour black make me a lesser man"? That's what the civil rights movement of the 60s - though Wonder was carrying on that fight in the 70s - was about. And what's this about? From what I can gather, trying to stop whites from dressing up like characters from races they don't belong to? If it demonstrates anything, it is that privileged students from other races seem to have appropriated the freedom and dignity that was always rightfully theirs to keep playing the race card relentlessly to both be in the mainstream and yet not only maintain their distinct racial identity but shut off other races from conversation about their race through any means (including Halloween costumes). I am brown but I don't feel much sympathy for such a position and think students ought to find better things to do than protest Halloween costumes unless they are indeed outright racist (and nothing from the email by Erika Christakis or the article published on Atlantic suggest that was the case). This isn't even progressivism in any form either, just entitlement. If some professor at Yale had shown disrespect towards a student of LGBT orientation and other students rallied around said student to demand action against the professor, THAT would be a worthwhile cause.
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 22:41
Atavachron wrote:
^ Complete reactionary hogwash. You're damn right black lives matter in regards to a white cop shooting a black man. Black-on-black violence? What about it?
This demonstrates an utter misunderstanding of human nature and how things work. Oh and don't be so calm and civil. I can feel your anger, young Jedi, so don't be bothered by or afraid of it. A lot of people have a whole lot of growing up to do, and it is a painful process that I hope all survive.
| I agree with some of what you say but I reclaim the use of the word liberal for people with ideas about principles and how society should be run and not for people who are just upset at things. My idea includes free speech, freedom in general, but also protection for the weakest, for workers, protection FROM the free market. Screaming at a Halloween costume doesn't make one a liberal. Or an anything really.
-------------
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 22:41
tbonson04 wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
I just watched the video and the only "hysterical" ones are the people in this thread who seem to have absolutely no concept of how true, deep anger manifests itself in young people, particularly students. To believe that the yelling student is somehow misled or ~ the dumbest notion posted here, "spoiled" ~ is to completely miss the nature of a progressive society, of which the US most certainly is, despite a strong conservative voting body. This little scuffle is nothing compared to the events of the civil rights movement of forty years ago. Should the student have conducted herself better? Probably, but anger is not something to be afraid of, it is a normal and very important part of an open society.
I'm sorry, most of the posts here are sad, misinformed, reactionary nonsense that is completely out of touch with the course of real human events. Upset by this? Give me a break and grow some balls. If this confrontation upsets you, you have bigger problems than harping on some sensational news event.. I would've screamed at the dude myself if I felt so inclined. How does this aging, out-of-touch faculty member sleep at night?-- I'd like to know to. |
Just because you're always on the opposite side of an issue in a thread, doesn't make you an effective critical thinker. "Misinformed reactionary nonsense" ? Please, tell me what is your background on this issue that makes you such an expert. How informed is your opinion? This issue brings to light some of the deep seeded problems facing race, class, and youth. If you can't see that, then do us all a favor and opt out of society. |
Oh I see, we have to have 'background on the issue', as if the posts you agree with are fine but the minority posts must exhibit some nebulous background. And don't try to psychoanalyze other people, it's unbecoming.
One more thing: Your 'opt out of society' remark shows cowardice and a feeble thinking process. If you want to discuss serious adult matters, you better keep your hands off the individual. Or, we could start brawling if you'd like. I love a good barfight.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 22:45
One other thing I want to comment on is the progressives err far too much on the side of mollycoddling other races/ethnic backgrounds. The thing is, not every Chinese student is underprivileged/poor/oppressed/hapless. So please don't treat them with kid gloves. The guys we in India send to the top universities in States are usually from the most privileged section of society here. Oh yes, they are bright academically plus they have access to every resource required to ace the exams. I don't think the situation is much different in China. So far from being disempowered due to their non Caucasian background, it is quite possible they react badly to not being the most privileged brats on campus anymore in a different land and different setting. Perhaps, they resent the privileged whites for this reason and not because these whites treat them so badly on campus and all? I am not saying it IS that way, but it is a possibility so let's not discount it and go too easy on these kids wanting Halloween costumes to be censored.
|
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 23:16
Atavachron wrote:
true, deep anger manifests itself in young people, particularly students.
| Therein lies the problem.
Yelling him the same repeated points whilst misunderstanding his probably does not persuades him or do something other then use him as a stress toy. That intense anger can become a block against others' perspectives, which is ironic because it typically is manifested in the attempt to make one's own heard. I don't deny that there have been protests (and wars) which have seen more drastic measures than this, but among whom and over what? This is an e-mail. Not an abusive one, I may add. Just one that stated that the faculty member didn't know where to draw the line with Halloween costume restrictions, so there weren't going to be any.
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 23:36
^ Emails are one of the mediums of modern debate and protest. Flickering light on a screen is no less powerful than any other mode of communication. Television has proved that over and over again.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 23:45
Sorry, David, but I think you are kind of arguing around the topic, as if to say what is wrong if the kids protest per se. No, indeed, nothing wrong if they engage the professor in such a confrontational manner but they would get more sympathy if the cause they were fighting for was actually admirable. Halloween costumes, seriously? Really how far removed is this from school kids protesting somebody wore a costume just to make fun of him and not getting into the spirit of things? Don't like their costumes...well, wear one that you think won't go down well with them. I have seen a video shot in a London commuter train where a British lady, most likely drunk, actually abused a Pakistani sitting next to her for his race, claiming he was stealing their jobs and all that. He simply started chanting Pakistan Zindabad to give her the rise. What the lady said was wrong but how a person responds to such barbs also reveals a lot about themselves.
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:14
More sympathy. Hmm.
Yes, dignity and class can be good things. But not always. Much is being missed and misperceived around these problems, and no one person has lived all of it to fully grasp both sides. We all love to judge.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:15
What also baffles me is that while these people will get upset to the point of almost emotional collapse over a white guy wearing a sombrero at a private party, or a book in the studen library that contains a refernce to rape or a a racist term, you'll never see them actually protesting against the brutal treatment of women and ethnic minorities in other countries that the US allies itself too.
I suspect many couldn't find Saudi on a map, but will know the every thought and Tweet of Caitlyn Jenner. Perhaps they don't want to make an issue of Saudis beheading women in the street and locking up rape victims, incase their fellow cult members think they're being racist and excommunicate them!
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:18
Atavachron wrote:
More sympathy. Hmm.
Yes, dignity and class can be good things. But not always. Much is being missed and misperceived around these problems, and no one person has lived all of it to fully grasp both sides. We all love to judge.
|
Not always, yes, but throwing a hissy fit over what somebody wore at a Halloween party does not paint a pretty picture at all.
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:23
Blacksword wrote:
What also baffles me is that while these people will get upset to the point of almost emotional collapse over a white guy wearing a sombrero at a private party, or a book in the studen library that contains a refernce to rape or a a racist term, you'll never see them actually protesting against the brutal treatment of women and ethnic minorities in other countries that the US allies itself too.
I suspect many couldn't find Saudi on a map, but will know the every thought and Tweet of Caitlyn Jenner. Perhaps they don't want to make an issue of Saudis beheading women in the street and locking up rape victims, incase their fellow cult members think they're being racist and excommunicate them! |
Pl see my other comment about many of these students possibly being quite privileged in their own right, in spite of what their race or ethnic background may suggest. I may be over judging this but I wouldn't be surprised if this is what was actually happening. 'Soccer' moms and dads give these children the best in everything and when they have to negotiate things in campus, they have problems because they are not trained to do that. To be in a position where they don't automatically get what they want.
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:25
Blacksword wrote:
What also baffles me is that while these people will get upset to the point of almost emotional collapse over a white guy wearing a sombrero at a private party, or a book in the studen library that contains a refernce to rape or a a racist term, you'll never see them actually protesting against the brutal treatment of women and ethnic minorities in other countries that the US allies itself too.
I suspect many couldn't find Saudi on a map, but will know the every thought and Tweet of Caitlyn Jenner. Perhaps they don't want to make an issue of Saudis beheading women in the street and locking up rape victims, incase their fellow cult members think they're being racist and excommunicate them! |
That's a stretch. If you think these same students and their comrades in other universities are unconcerned about beheadings and injustice to rape victims, you may be more out-of-touch than you assume. Just today I overheard a mixed-race guy of about twenty lambasting the Israeli position on the Palestinians; I mean this guy was angry and serious, and convinced the Israeli's feel a, in his words, "Religious entitlement". He may be right, or he may be historically inept. But there is currently no lack of political will, global and local, among college age people.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:27
Atavachron wrote:
^ Emails are one of the mediums of modern debate and protest. Flickering light on a screen is no less powerful than any other mode of communication. Television has proved that over and over again.
| All it is is communication. Which can include verbal abuse, but that was not present here. I was contrasting with the atrocities that prompted the more extreme measures of the Civil Rights movement.
The way these students are reacting to simple ideas is counterproductive. It can act as a form of punishment for anybody who expresses ideas that are different from their own. And if those with different ideas do not express those ideas, they cannot be persuaded otherwise, unless they come across a persuasive argument themselves, nor can their valid ones be heard if they have them. It suffocates any kind of discourse on the subject.
The faculty member went specifically to hear the students' opinions and to explain his own. What he got was not at all any sort of discourse, but punishment.
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:28
^ I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:35
Atavachron wrote:
^ I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.
|
Indeed, in older times, perhaps the professor wouldn't have had the proverbial Damocles sword of media outrage hanging over his head because it's Yale and simply refused to suffer these students politely. He was trying too hard to be nice to them when he could have simply said it's Halloween and you guys sort it out between yourselves and don't bother me about it again. Nor should he be. Unless anybody got ragged or bullied during the Halloween party, unless anybody actually got denied entry into the party on account of their race, the professor shouldn't be involved at all.
His wife's mistake may have been to open the discourse in the first place when she could have simply toed the line laid out by the Yale establishment and stayed right out of the mess. And then may be get called a bureaucrat for that but she could have saved her backside that way.
|
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:37
I've not a single time called anybody spoiled or naive, so you can stop the public masturbation.
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:38
Polymorphia wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
^ I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are. |
I've not a single time called anybody spoiled or naive, so you can stop the public masturbation.
|
Don't knock masturbation; it's sex with someone I love.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:39
rogerthat wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
^ I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are. | Indeed, in older times, perhaps the professor wouldn't have had the proverbial Damocles sword of media outrage hanging over his head because it's Yale and simply refused to suffer these students politely. He was trying too hard to be nice to them when he could have simply said it's Halloween and you guys sort it out between yourselves and don't bother me about it again. Nor should he be. Unless anybody got ragged or bullied during the Halloween party, unless anybody actually got denied entry into the party on account of their race, the professor shouldn't be involved at all.
His wife's mistake may have been to open the discourse in the first place when she could have simply toed the line laid out by the Yale establishment and stayed right out of the mess. And then may be get called a bureaucrat for that but she could have saved her backside that way. |
Well yeah, in a way, that's exactly right. And even though that seems a trivial and simplistic observation, it's fairly on the money. Reality is what it is, and if we ignore it will bite us hard on the ass
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:42
I get that. But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic. Um, exactly how is internet not a part of the same reality? So...the reality is that perhaps a parent on these students is a prog rock fan and reading this topic and feeling his/her blood boil at the things said about precious. Well, fair dinkum, huh. If something goes viral, any tom, dick and harry can express an opinion on it. And now, there's now college admin to complain to to stop them from doing so. Which is why the professor's advice was perhaps more sage than you give it credit for.
|
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:46
Atavachron wrote:
Polymorphia wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
^ I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are. |
I've not a single time called anybody spoiled or naive, so you can stop the public masturbation.
|
Don't knock masturbation; it's sex with someone I love.
| Ah, when one becomes one.
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:46
rogerthat wrote:
I get that. But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic. |
How is that contradictory?
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:51
Atavachron wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
I get that. But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic. |
How is that contradictory?
|
Of course it is. If you have no objection to the students using whatever mode of protest they see fit to vent their anger, what's wrong with a bunch of people commenting on the news story about it? For reasons best known to yourself, you give the impression of going to great lengths to shield the students from criticism, urging everyone not to judge them even though one of the students actually called the prof disgusting, a highly judgmental thing to say.
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 01:00
rogerthat wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
I get that. But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic. |
How is that contradictory? | Of course it is. If you have no objection to the students using whatever mode of protest they see fit to vent their anger, what's wrong with a bunch of people commenting on the news story about it? For reasons best known to yourself, you give the impression of going to great lengths to shield the students from criticism, urging everyone not to judge them even though one of the students actually called the prof disgusting, a highly judgmental thing to say. |
That's a circular argument if I've ever heard one. If you want to play that game, ask yourself why you so strongly object to my stance. We could do that all night, y'know?
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 01:07
You started with the circular arguments, resorting to 'reality bites' when I pointed out that in earlier times, even this courtesy may not have been afforded to students. Sorry, David, I respect your contributions to this website and various forum discussions but you are completely off the rocker today. I am just going to say it out flat and I am sure I am not the only one who felt so in this discussion. Maybe you can pause, take a deep breath and read back what you wrote at a later stage. Or maybe not, the choice is yours because, hey, I am not a modern, intolerant, militant, easily offended liberal. But I am done with this topic because my day is just getting to the half way mark and I have things to do.
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 01:09
Okay -
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 03:04
Scott
Alexander, a blogger who's been a sharp critic of the more toxic aspects of modern left-wing culture in large part because he's a
former right-libertarian before turning left and as a result used to be on the
receiving end of constant harassment from left-wing activists,
has already mounted http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/11/09/looking-a-gift-horse-in-the-mouth/" rel="nofollow - a counter-argument against that article and others
like it . He finds articles like Conor Friedersdorf's
suspicious, because they often take issue with the (in Alexander's view) least objectionable
aspects of modern social justice activism, and are often coming from
established high-ranking academics who are not that much at threat from activists.
The relevant quote:
The
only thing that elite SJ-criticism is really willing to take on is
trigger warnings, which happen to be one of the pieces of social justice
I really like and have defended at length.
I lost
the link, but someone compared the coverage of two recent social justice
scandals. First, users on Tumblr bullied a fan-artist to the point
where she attempted suicide, because she drew a cartoon character too
thin and so was “erasing fat people” – and these users continue to
defend their actions and say that anyone who objects doesn’t understand
that you can’t fight structural oppression without breaking some eggs.
Second, some students at Yale got angry at an administrator who said she
wasn’t going to enforce cultural sensitivity on Halloween costumes, and
yelled and threw stuff at her and her family.
I
feel for anybody who gets yelled at and has stuff thrown at them, but
the first of these two stories seems by far the most important; lots of
teenagers commit suicide every year because of bullying, the idea that
somebody deserves to die because they picture a cartoon character
differently is abominable, and anyone who’s been on the relevant parts
of the Internet knows this kind of thing is common as dirt. If I were a
news editor, I’d consider the first study a much bigger deal.
Instead,
the second has gone viral in the national media, and the first remains
stuck among the same few second-tier sites and SJ-critical nobody
bloggers whom these kinds of things are always stuck among. |
The comments field is long as hell, but it actually has Conor Friedersdorf dropping in to argue with Scott Alexander.
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 03:13
^ Nice to see there are some truly independent thinkers out there who don't get so caught-up in their own philosophy that they can't see reality.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 03:28
I do think that this kind of harassing behaviour is something way too
many people on the political left give a free pass to as long as it
happens to their political opponents, though, or just ignore because of the media
bubble they live in filtering out anything that casts their side in a bad
light. Believe it or not: The only of my exes who's right-wing actually receives at least as much misogynistic hate mail when she participates in political debate on the
internet as women of the left do, to the point she had to delete her
Facebook profile a couple years ago because of it (and she's http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-01-08/women-and-men-why-can-t-we-all-just-disagree-" rel="nofollow - not http://takimag.com/article/the_anonymous_misogynist_online_army_kathy_shaidle" rel="nofollow - alone ), so it really annoys both of us when http://slatestarscratchpad.tumblr.com/post/96169183246/of-course-you-cant-recall-it-you-live-inside-an" rel="nofollow - left-of-centre commentators frame that as something only right-wingers do .
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 03:42
^ The thing is, the New Hip Moderates are going to have to start realizing that progressives are on the rise, and it has little to do with anything like Obama or Bernie. It is the U.S. Left's moment in the sun and for a long while to come. And frankly after Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush l & ll and assorted other empathy-challenged and ethically-bankrupt persons, it's about time.
Sorry all you cool guys who assume you're on top of things; all instant media-savvied and informed, utterly out of touch with the nature of human sociopolitical motion, sure to criticize things you don't really know about or understand, making snap judgements based on what is almost always inaccurate reporting and documentation.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 04:09
It's in large part because of what happened to her that I'm so disturbed by belligerent left-wing rhetoric: I hear and see so much of it on a daily basis, and I know that it has quite a few very real very ugly consequences that get systematically covered up by those news media that lean left.
Maybe it's because my real-life social circle is such a left-wing echo chamber, but the few people I know who lean right are some of the most openminded and skilled debaters I've ever encountered - even though I often don't understand their worldviews or think they reason from some very misguided ideas.
I say this as someone who has in practice promoted mostly traditional left-wing causes, but I find left-wing culture so overtly dysfunctional that I'm no longer politicallly active. (as to be expected, I find right-wing political culture to be messed up in very different - though probably more insidious - ways)
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 04:12
Oh I can't stand politics-- it drives a wedge between people faster than any religion or philosophy. Just look at this thread. I have strong views and feelings but politics with a capital 'P' is the worst.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 04:15
I suspect that this generation will be remembered as the generation that was offended by everything. Every generation needs a cause, something to get angry about that is unique to them, and this is the first generation that hasn't got one. Part of the reason for this is all the previous generations' causes never got resolved, they may have changed the World a little bit, but all the social and environmental injustices that united each generation persist to this day. So now we have a generation that can pick any cause they like and they can be anti- this, that and the other, but they are all tainted by a pallor of cynicism and doubt. As if the small gains of the past are seen as not minor victories but major failings, in that whatever actions the previous generations took in their particular cause célèbre were either ineffectual or poorly aimed. It is as though the earlier generations were not offended enough so this generation has to be more offended.
------------- What?
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 04:25
Atavachron wrote:
^ The thing is, the New Hip Moderates are going to have to start realizing that progressives are on the rise, and it has little to do with anything like Obama or Bernie. It is the U.S. Left's moment in the sun and for a long while to come. And frankly after Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush l & ll and assorted other empathy-challenged and ethically-bankrupt persons, it's about time.
Sorry all you cool guys who assume you're on top of things; all instant media-savvied and informed, utterly out of touch with the nature of human sociopolitical motion, sure to criticize things you don't really know about or understand, making snap judgements based on what is almost always inaccurate reporting and documentation.
|
Hang on...
What you're basically saying is that you support totalitarianism if it's left wing..???
I'm confused. Help me out..
I thought that imposing ones own values on another was inherently wrong, regardless of the political compass of the imposer. No???
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 04:37
Uhm, no, not at all. I'm making an observation. Period. The fact that I tend toward progressive politics doesn't negate my ability to assess the national political mood. One has nothing to do with the other.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 05:48
rogerthat wrote:
Sorry, David, I respect your contributions to this website and various forum discussions but you are completely off the rocker today. I am just going to say it out flat and I am sure I am not the only one who felt so in this discussion. Maybe you can pause, take a deep breath and read back what you wrote at a later stage. Or maybe not, the choice is yours |
This is classic and brilliant, and quite right too. I'm waaay off the rocker today and loving every minute, and stand by every word after reading it all back multiple times with relish.
But thank you for having the nuts to say it it rogerthat real-name-unknown-but-uses-a-dot. And I really don't think the whiskey shots or bong hits had anything to do with my behavior so let's just get off that right now. Cheers to you and a big awkward hug.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 05:53
Atavachron wrote:
But thank you for having the nuts to say it Madan. And I really don't think the whiskey shots or bong hits had anything to do with my behavior so let's just get off that right now. Cheers to you and a big awkward hug.
|
fixed
------------- What?
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 06:09
You know everyone's name, you rat !
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 06:14
Atavachron wrote:
You know everyone's name, you rat !
|
It's "my thing" - I use it to remind myself that the avatar I am talking to is a real person.
------------- What?
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 06:24
It is your thing. There should be a Dean's Member Names Reference.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 06:25
Atavachron wrote:
Uhm, no, not at all. I'm making an observation. Period. The fact that I tend toward progressive politics doesn't negate my ability to assess the national political mood. One has nothing to do with the other.
|
Sorry to labour the point, but you said..
"And frankly after Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush l & ll and assorted other empathy-challenged and ethically-bankrupt persons, it's about time"
"It's about time" That sounds like you are an advocate of the sought of left leaning totalitarian behaviour under discussion here.
Also why is it referred to as 'progressive' politics?
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 06:33
What the bloody hell are you going on about-- I have the right to a political leaning, an opinion of where the country is moving, and any multiple variations there of. Try considering all points of view, not just the one's that don't aggravate you. Politics is not so simple a thing and it gets more complex every day, one can be both liberal and conservative, spiritual and non-religious, contrarian by nature and existentially reasonable.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 08:55
This thread poses a very real, threatening question that our society will have to face in the coming years: Is there such thing as an ugly liberal?
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 09:03
Curiously, David, I agree with your politics (I may be more extreme) but I still don't grasp what has that to do with the students complaining bitterly about a letter about Halloween costumes. I think I didn't wake up with my full set of IQ points on today for I still fail to see the reasons for your particular outrage...
-------------
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 10:11
On the other hand, I can see where these little 'experiments' on college campuses tie in with the emergence of a new politics. I guess we have forgotten the importance of student activism in politics; it's been a really long time since there was any churning in politics here-to-before but the signs are everywhere now from North America to Europe to Asia. I also referred to these sort of incidents as the logical culmination of Progressivism. Would like to add that it also makes perfect sense that we liberals would feel outraged by it, because such a culmination would involve finally chucking the 'liberal' suffix. That was required in the 20th century to 'validate' this progressive strand of politics so that it would be seen as pro-choice but with right wing hawks sacrificing liberty for the sake of national security, choice may no longer be seen as as important as shaping a certain kind of world. With that said, I am no closer than you are to figuring out his source of outrage on behalf of the students and find his exhortations to all and sundry to wake up and smell the coffee, so to speak, baffling. Yes, I can see what is going on but I don't see that as a reason to move my ideals because if I did, they wouldn't be ideals. I can only see this tiresome trend of PC-ness growing with time but that doesn't mean I will turn cheerleader just to be with it. I don't think it's right and as a true liberal I don't give a rat's ass what opinion people may have of me for taking that position.
|
Posted By: *frinspar*
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 10:59
Is that proverbial coffee equal exchange?
|
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 12:55
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
|
|
Print Page | Close Window
Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd. - http://www.webwiz.co.uk
|
|