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Finnforest View Drop Down
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 13:28
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A broad question perhaps, but why do some of us believe or have the need to believe in a God, an afterlife, redemption and all that goes along with Judeo-Christian beliefs?
Mostly due to lack of a quality education.
Do you know what? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and believe that you really do believe that bollocks and aren't just being dickish to be provocative.


Thank you for that my friend, I appreciate it Dean.  Hug
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Points: 495 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 13:40
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A broad question perhaps, but why do some of us believe or have the need to believe in a God, an afterlife, redemption and all that goes along with Judeo-Christian beliefs?
Mostly due to lack of a quality education.
 
No man!
 
Mostly due to not finding a quality education system.
 
This happens because it is a way more and more people who are responsible for the management duties find as an effective, useful and easier resource for undergoing their politics. And I agree with them, it is indeed a lot easier managing people who don't have critical sense nor the ability to take a decision on his own.
 


Edited by Tillerman88 - October 31 2015 at 13:45
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Points: 7951 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 14:08
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:


After some thought perhaps the better question would be, why do some people not have religious beliefs since the majority on earth probably do.
Because cultures spread and cover vast regions.


On a simply practical attrition level that's the reason for spread of 'religion' but not why people still believe in that ontology after several millennia.
Your assumption about attrition seems problematical to me. Cultures do not simply spread, they persist with their own inertia. You could argue that cultures do not have infinite lifespans, but actually they don't just evaporate. They change internally or through outside influences. Either way, they change. This has been the case with religion. It has changed over millennia with culture just as culture has.
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Points: 17847 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 14:40
Simple....because I chose to believe..
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Points: 10261 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 14:51
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A broad question perhaps, but why do some of us believe or have the need to believe in a God, an afterlife, redemption and all that goes along with Judeo-Christian beliefs?
Mostly due to lack of a quality education.
 
No man!
 
Mostly due to not finding a quality education system.
 
This happens because it is a way more and more people who are responsible for the management duties find as an effective, useful and easier resource for undergoing their politics. And I agree with them, it is indeed a lot easier managing people who don't have critical sense nor the ability to take a decision on his own.

Are you honestly trying to express the view that people who have religious beliefs lack quality education? Then you are extremely mistaken. I know a lot of people who are extremely high educated and nevertheless have religious beliefs. This includes my spouse BaldJean and me.


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Points: 7951 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 19:20
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


A broad question perhaps, but why do some of us believe or have the need to believe in a God, an afterlife, redemption and all that goes along with Judeo-Christian beliefs?

Mostly due to lack of a quality education.

 
No man!
 
Mostly due to not finding a quality education system.
 
This happens because it is a way more and more people who are responsible for the management duties find as an effective, useful and easier resource for undergoing their politics. And I agree with them, it is indeed a lot easier managing people who don't have critical sense nor the ability to take a decision on his own.

Are you honestly trying to express the view that people who have religious beliefs lack quality education? Then you are extremely mistaken. I know a lot of people who are extremely high educated and nevertheless have religious beliefs. This includes my spouse BaldJean and me.
Yeah, only has 2 posts I notice too. Hopefully he's into Prog too. We'll see. Anyway, I'm one who's all to happy to pull religious belief down off its pedestal, but it's true that some very educated and very smart people are believers in some faith.
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 19:54
I have no say in other people's beliefs, fanaticism on the-other-hand is poison tho' no matter what you believe in, it makes people narrow minded and inacceptable of other people' views.
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Points: 20623 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2015 at 10:21
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:


After some thought perhaps the better question would be, why do some people not have religious beliefs since the majority on earth probably do.
Because cultures spread and cover vast regions.

On a simply practical attrition level that's the reason for spread of 'religion' but not why people still believe in that ontology after several millennia.

I think you misphrased your sentence since according to the dictionary "ontology" is "the branch of metaphysics that studies the nature of existence or being as such".
 
Religious beliefs are part of an individual personal ontology...so as such it certainly concerns the nature of existence and being.  But I understand what you meant.....metaphysics might be more appropriate or even 'world view'.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Points: 20623 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2015 at 10:24
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:


After some thought perhaps the better question would be, why do some people not have religious beliefs since the majority on earth probably do.
Because cultures spread and cover vast regions.


On a simply practical attrition level that's the reason for spread of 'religion' but not why people still believe in that ontology after several millennia.
Your assumption about attrition seems problematical to me. Cultures do not simply spread, they persist with their own inertia. You could argue that cultures do not have infinite lifespans, but actually they don't just evaporate. They change internally or through outside influences. Either way, they change. This has been the case with religion. It has changed over millennia with culture just as culture has.
 
Choice of terms aside the fact remains that religious belief in a deity or multiple ones persists strongly on planet earth....so imho the question should be why do so many still believe if things have changed towards a modern paradigm of atheism and science?
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Points: 995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2015 at 12:15
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:


After some thought perhaps the better question would be, why do some people not have religious beliefs since the majority on earth probably do.
Because cultures spread and cover vast regions.


On a simply practical attrition level that's the reason for spread of 'religion' but not why people still believe in that ontology after several millennia.
Your assumption about attrition seems problematical to me. Cultures do not simply spread, they persist with their own inertia. You could argue that cultures do not have infinite lifespans, but actually they don't just evaporate. They change internally or through outside influences. Either way, they change. This has been the case with religion. It has changed over millennia with culture just as culture has.
 
Choice of terms aside the fact remains that religious belief in a deity or multiple ones persists strongly on planet earth....so imho the question should be why do so many still believe if things have changed towards a modern paradigm of atheism and science?

Why always try to uncover the often filthy truth, and not fill our memories (as long as it's safe) with great virtual and imaginary fireworks, the more powerful if we believe they exist, instead ?

Similarly, placebo effect has shown very encouraging results.

I also think religious fantasy, or building relationship to things that can exist only if we're not on "critical thinking" mode, can be a bit like we use imaginary numbers in mathematics in order to tidy up equations, that is finding shorter ways to solve an equation, or to make the best of one day. 
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2015 at 13:02
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

After some thought perhaps the better question would be, why do some people not have religious beliefs since the majority on earth probably do.

I think that the recent rise in non-religious people is related to the fact that religion now plays a smaller role in society, at least in some places.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2015 at 02:44
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A broad question perhaps, but why do some of us believe or have the need to believe in a God, an afterlife, redemption and all that goes along with Judeo-Christian beliefs?
Mostly due to lack of a quality education.
 
No man!
 
Mostly due to not finding a quality education system.
 
This happens because it is a way more and more people who are responsible for the management duties find as an effective, useful and easier resource for undergoing their politics. And I agree with them, it is indeed a lot easier managing people who don't have critical sense nor the ability to take a decision on his own.
 
I can agree with that. In fact, we both think the same.
Btw, I did not say that the religion in the schools is disabling of becoming a good export-import manager, an accountant or a pharmacist, and to serve a corporation perfectly with his / her Christian morality, but more kids will accept for life all those religious fables as something real. And that's wrong.
In my country, it was some golden period of the real socialism when religion was completely expelled from the school system (although, if the parents were interested that their child becomes a believer who will study the Bible or the Koran, there was a possibility of attending the religious classes separately from the school but in a church, monastery or madrasas). After the so-called "democratic changes" (lol) in 2000, religious education was promptly re-introduced in the schools.

Edited by Svetonio - November 02 2015 at 04:13
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Points: 20623 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2015 at 13:32
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

After some thought perhaps the better question would be, why do some people not have religious beliefs since the majority on earth probably do.

I think that the recent rise in non-religious people is related to the fact that religion now plays a smaller role in society, at least in some places.

Where did you read there was a recent rise in 'non -religious' people...?
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2015 at 13:52
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

After some thought perhaps the better question would be, why do some people not have religious beliefs since the majority on earth probably do.

I think that the recent rise in non-religious people is related to the fact that religion now plays a smaller role in society, at least in some places.

Where did you read there was a recent rise in 'non -religious' people...?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/12/5-key-findings-u-s-religious-landscape/
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Points: 7951 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2015 at 14:10
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:


After some thought perhaps the better question would be, why do some people not have religious beliefs since the majority on earth probably do.

I think that the recent rise in non-religious people is related to the fact that religion now plays a smaller role in society, at least in some places.


Where did you read there was a recent rise in '<span style="line-height: 1.4;">non -religious' people...?</span>
I think he's absolutely right about that at least for US. I'm fairly certain I've heard reports to that effect. At the moment I am too busy to track down any such data, but I think there has been some of attrition that you are speaking of (and denying the existence of). As I said, attrition should be limited because culture has its own inertia. I think religious belief travels by way of culture. If perhaps you/someone think it persists because it serves some psychological need, There may be some truth to that in different ways for different individuals, but I think that is a matter of exaptation rather than adaptation. It's an epiphenomenon in other words.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2015 at 20:15
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A broad question perhaps, but why do some of us believe or have the need to believe in a God, an afterlife, redemption and all that goes along with Judeo-Christian beliefs?
Mostly due to lack of a quality education.
 
No man!
 
Mostly due to not finding a quality education system.
 
This happens because it is a way more and more people who are responsible for the management duties find as an effective, useful and easier resource for undergoing their politics. And I agree with them, it is indeed a lot easier managing people who don't have critical sense nor the ability to take a decision on his own.
 
I can agree with that. In fact, we both think the same.
Btw, I did not say that the religion in the schools is disabling of becoming a good export-import manager, an accountant or a pharmacist, and to serve a corporation perfectly with his / her Christian morality, but more kids will accept for life all those religious fables as something real. And that's wrong.
In my country, it was some golden period of the real socialism when religion was completely expelled from the school system (although, if the parents were interested that their child becomes a believer who will study the Bible or the Koran, there was a possibility of attending the religious classes separately from the school but in a church, monastery or madrasas). After the so-called "democratic changes" (lol) in 2000, religious education was promptly re-introduced in the schools.
...and I'll still give you the benefit of the doubt that you sincerely believe all that bollocks and aren't just pretending to be dickish because you want to insult people who have religious beliefs. 

Furthermore, if you also believe that a five-sixths of the world is religious because they had religious education while at school then you display signs of being ill-informed and poorly educated, which means that regardless of the quality of your education or the quality of the education system you studied in, you could be judged to have failed to have benefited from having an education. 

We are all products of our education and that includes everything we learn outside those places of formal education we attended. Education does not start on our first day at kindergarten and it does not end on graduation day. This means our education is a also product of us, throughout life we make choices about the education we receive and what we chose to learn. Formal education does not just teach you stuff, it teaches you how to learn.

Moreover, we are also products of the environment in which we live, and more specifically, that which we are born into. By the time you attended your first day at school you had already been taught how to walk, eat, how to tell right from wrong and not to soil your pants, you had also been taught to talk and what to believe. The environment in which you learnt those things determined what language you spoke and beliefs you believed in. If you were born into a christian, hindu, jewish, muslim, non-religious or atheist environment then you were most likely to have those respective beliefs irrespective of how, or whether, those beliefs are taught during formal education. Those beliefs have nothing to do with formal education because education is not formative on our beliefs: attending a christian school will not make you a christian just as attending a secular school will not make you an atheist (and it should be said: attending church every Sunday does not make you a christian and non-attendance does not make you a non-believer).

I was born into a christian family in a christian country where there is no separation between church and state, I was christened in a christian church and I attended a christian church every Sunday. I went to a christian primary school, and while the high school I attended was technically secular it held mandatory christian assemblies every morning and religious education was on the curriculum. When I left school I continued to attend church, went to bible studies, watched christian rock groups and attended christian rock festivals, I have even spent some time at a christian commune. I also got married in a christian church with a christian marriage ceremony. None of those things made me a christian and none of them made me an atheist. 

My parents raised me as a christian but through their own choosing allowed me to make my own choice when I was old enough to decide such things for myself. As José said in an earlier post, he chose to believe and I too can be a believer or an non-believer because I have the freedom to choose. Depending on your point of view I am now a lapsed-christian, an apostate christian, an agnostic, an atheist, a post-theist or nontheist - but to me they are just meaningless labels, I will call myself an atheist or a post-theist depending upon my mood and who I'm talking to.

What formal education does not do, and indeed cannot do, is provide all the knowledge to make that choice, because that is not its function. However, receiving an education devoid of any religious education can leave you inevitably uneducated in religion, just as not being taught calculus will leave you uneducated in calculus, and that would make you unqualified to judge others. So to be a non-believer just because of where you were born and because you believe that the education you received did not force you to believe "all those religious fables as something real" makes you as indoctrinated into a non-belief ideology as you believe those who received religious education while at school. And that's wrong too. Essentially, is it that you don't believe perhaps because you were not given the choice? 






[and if an Admin is reading this, can they correct the spelling mistake in the thread title please?]


Edited by Dean - November 02 2015 at 20:16
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Points: 65266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2015 at 21:04
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I have no say in other people's beliefs, fanaticism on the-other-hand is poison tho' no matter what you believe in, it makes people narrow minded and inacceptable of other people' views.

One of the simplest and smartest things said so far.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 20623 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2015 at 10:15
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

After some thought perhaps the better question would be, why do some people not have religious beliefs since the majority on earth probably do.

I think that the recent rise in non-religious people is related to the fact that religion now plays a smaller role in society, at least in some places.

Where did you read there was a recent rise in 'non -religious' people...?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/12/5-key-findings-u-s-religious-landscape/
 
Thanks for the link...it does appear that organized or institutionalized religion has decreased. Interestingly I see no real change around me though in those that claim to believe in God....friends and family. Indeed I am the only one in my extended family that claims to be either agnostic or atheist. Though most of my friends and relatives no longer attend church on a regular basis they all still profess a belief in 'God'.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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