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Topic ClosedWhy do some people have religous beliefs?

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wilmon91 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2015 at 15:02
Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

Originally posted by wilmon91 wilmon91 wrote:

Another interesting question would be if you met a psychopath, with no sense of feelings and empathy, who asked you what was the point of feelings?

What arguments are there to convince the psychopath about the value of feelings and conscience?

(Only a robot has no feeling, and if there's a will it is dicted by feelings). Absolute empathy is nearly impossible since it requires that one would be able to feel like someone with different experiment and memories. Now people that are called "psychos" have developed an addictive taste for absolute power on others (of any kind) and they're sort of emprisoned into that feeling of being irresistible.

Maybe you'd like to know whether a psycho would convert to judeo-christianism: the answer is yes, everyone can "repent" even crazy killers, but better be put out of exerting power first.
I don't know if peoples actions are driven by "will". Some people do stuff that they regret afterwards, and if your hungry you might eat too much, but that's not "will", it's "craving" or "appetite" or "desire", stuff that may be outside of their control.
But the point I tried to make is that some things can't be explained in a factual way.
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wilmon91 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2015 at 15:04
pressed the wrong button..


Edited by wilmon91 - October 27 2015 at 15:05
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2015 at 15:38
Originally posted by wilmon91 wilmon91 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Why do some people have religous beliefs?


The question has some implication, as if saying - why don't people stick to what we can see, hear and register with our senses. We don't need to believe in anything until we have seen it. Why believe in extraterrestrials until we have seen one? However, it's extremely unlikely that extraterrestrials don't exist, it is too improbable.

The scientific progress only works with what we have discovered and what is measurable, though.

But you can't
  • prove a purpose
  • observe a purpose.

So we might as well ask, "why do people need a purpose?" But that calls for the question, "why don't some people need purpose?" . It's the same with the question in this thread. It is a naive question, since there is no explanation to why the question was asked, and there is no argument for not believing - it's only implied.

Ah, semantics, my favorite. Let's return to my original post and I quote myself as follows: "...why do some of us believe or have the need to believe in a God, an afterlife, redemption and all that goes along with Judeo-Christian beliefs?"

Edited by SteveG - October 27 2015 at 15:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2015 at 15:50
Originally posted by wilmon91 wilmon91 wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Two days, four pages ... when there's already another (recent) thread about faith.
What thread is that?
Is faith always bad?
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jayem View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2015 at 17:37
Originally posted by wilmon91 wilmon91 wrote:

Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

I don't know if peoples actions are driven by "will". Some people do stuff that they regret afterwards, and if your hungry you might eat too much, but that's not "will", it's "craving" or "appetite" or "desire", stuff that may be outside of their control.

You mean will has to be conscious, even well-thought ? I can't claim authority on how to define words... "Will power" is mostly celebrated in a context of tough choices to make... Moves would be a better word ? But most unconscious moves are the result of calculations processed differently than those dedicated to managing heartbeats. Ain't "Irresistible" and uncontroled moves the result of saying "Yes" to a gushing flow of "Go for it !" that no counter-information strengthening a counter-will would be able to prevent ?...

*****

[QUOTE=wilmon91]But the point I tried to make is that some things can't be explained in a factual way.

Like predestination ? 
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jayem View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2015 at 17:37
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

"...why do some of us believe or have the need to believe in a God, an afterlife, redemption and all that goes along with Judeo-Christian beliefs?"

Like all "standard" religions Judeo-Christianity is about finding an answer to that question: how it is that one would feel either so well taken care of, or on the contrary so hurt, and nobody one knows can claim responsibility for. There must be someone responsible, one can talk to...

After some would claim to have found the ultimate truth about that, more or less satisfactory to others, Judeo-Christianity did provide its own answers about who God is, and what to do to ensure God's benevolence. It requires not focusing too much on questions like: if God is in total control of everything, why would some people be luckier than others, and figure out their own interests better than others ?

For non believers, the answer would be that it's just part of what can possibly happen in an universe the way we know it, and what happens happens, and we'll do what we'll do.


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wilmon91 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2015 at 14:33
Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

You mean will has to be conscious, even well-thought ? I can't claim authority on how to define words... "Will power" is mostly celebrated in a context of tough choices to make... Moves would be a better word ? But most unconscious moves are the result of calculations processed differently than those dedicated to managing heartbeats. Ain't "Irresistible" and uncontroled moves the result of saying "Yes" to a gushing flow of "Go for it !" that no counter-information strengthening a counter-will would be able to prevent ?...
If one would say that peoples actions are governed only by will, that would be doubtful.. "will" is a bit ambiguous word. It's controlled by a hierarchy of different forces , I would guess. But I was thinking mostly of the intellectual will coming from the soul. This reminds me of a movie, "Der Freie Wille:

about a rapist who seems to have an uncontrollable drive. But he appears like he hates this side of himself, like it wasn't part of him. I didn't buy the story completely but it was an interesting premise.

There's people who want to change but doesn't change, and they start to believe that no one can change. That's not true in my opinion. But I don't think it's a s simple as making a decision.

Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

Originally posted by wilmon91 wilmon91 wrote:

But the point I tried to make is that some things can't be explained in a factual way.

Like predestination ?

I was thinking about human psychology, it can't be explained with scientific terms.




Edited by wilmon91 - October 28 2015 at 14:49
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jayem View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2015 at 15:24
OK... I can't argue further but welcome comments from experts !
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2015 at 19:06
Originally posted by wilmon91 wilmon91 wrote:

I was thinking about human psychology, it can't be explained with scientific terms.
Argh! Cognitive scientist here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 05:09
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A broad question perhaps, but why do some of us believe or have the need to believe in a God, an afterlife, redemption and all that goes along with Judeo-Christian beliefs?

I don't believe in that. I do however have religious beliefs, but they are (almost) completely my own. I say "almost" because I am co-founder of a religion that worships Gaia, the ancient Greek Goddess of the Earth. I founded it with my beloved wife BaldJean. We are both High Priestesses of it.

Our small religious group currently has 27 members, counting us and our two daughters Alice and Dorothy.

There are other religious groups in the world that worship Gaia. We are however completely independent of them.

We even created a new calendar which we call the "Gaian calendar". It has 13 months with 28 days each. Since 13 times 28 equals 364 only there is also a New Year's Day, which does not belong to any month or week and which is followed by leap day, which also does not belong to any month or week. Out year starts with the vernal equinox. That way a year resembles a human life, with spring being childhood and youth (the first 20 years), summer young adulthood (the next 20 years), fall middle-age (the next 20 years) and winter old age (the rest).

This calendar has the advantage that the same date will fall on the same weekday every year. What's more, all months start  with the same weekday as well since our week has seven days as in the Gregorian calendar. Figuring out which weekday a certain date falls on thus becomes extremely easy.

The names of the weekdays and the months are taken from Greek mythology. The weekdays are named after the seven Pleiades, the months after Greek Goddesses.

The solstices and equinoxes, which mark the beginning of the four seasons, are our holy days. We paint ourselves head to toe in the color of the beginning season for these days - green for the grass of spring, red for the flowers of summer, yellowish-brown for the leaves of fall and white for the snow of winter.

As to why people belief in religions, not just the one you mentioned: Because they think there is some meaning in this world; it is not just arbitrary.


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 10:21
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:


After some thought perhaps the better question would be, why do some people not have religious beliefs since the majority on earth probably do.
Because cultures spread and cover vast regions.

On a simply practical attrition level that's the reason for spread of 'religion' but not why people still believe in that ontology after several millennia.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 10:32
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:


After some thought perhaps the better question would be, why do some people not have religious beliefs since the majority on earth probably do.
Because cultures spread and cover vast regions.

On a simply practical attrition level that's the reason for spread of 'religion' but not why people still believe in that ontology after several millennia.

I think you misphrased your sentence since according to the dictionary "ontology" is "the branch of metaphysics that studies the nature of existence or being as such".


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Vompatti View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 10:42
Do some people have religious beliefs that don't concern the nature of existence or being as such?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 11:02
No, but "ontology" is the science that studies things that exist. And he certainly did not mean he does not believe in that science.


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Vompatti View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 11:15
1
:  a branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature and relations of being
2
:  a particular theory about the nature of being or the kinds of things that have existence
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 11:25
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

1
:  a branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature and relations of being
2
:  a particular theory about the nature of being or the kinds of things that have existence

The second definition does not apply either. Or wold you define "religion" as "a theory of the things that have existence"? I certainly would not.


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Vompatti View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 11:51
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

1
:  a branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature and relations of being
2
:  a particular theory about the nature of being or the kinds of things that have existence

The second definition does not apply either. Or wold you define "religion" as "a theory of the things that have existence"? I certainly would not.

I would say that if religion doesn't lead to an ontology that would be impossible without the religion, it's not much of a religion.


Edited by Vompatti - October 31 2015 at 11:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 12:24
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

1
:  a branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature and relations of being
2
:  a particular theory about the nature of being or the kinds of things that have existence

The second definition does not apply either. Or wold you define "religion" as "a theory of the things that have existence"? I certainly would not.

I would say that if religion doesn't lead to an ontology that would be impossible without the religion, it's not much of a religion.

It depends a lot on how you define "theory". If you define it in the scientific sense, which I prefer since I am extremely interested in natural sciences, it means " a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experiments". But that is exactly what a religion is not.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 13:09
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A broad question perhaps, but why do some of us believe or have the need to believe in a God, an afterlife, redemption and all that goes along with Judeo-Christian beliefs?
Mostly due to lack of a quality education.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2015 at 13:24
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A broad question perhaps, but why do some of us believe or have the need to believe in a God, an afterlife, redemption and all that goes along with Judeo-Christian beliefs?
Mostly due to lack of a quality education.
Do you know what? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and believe that you really do believe that bollocks and aren't just being dickish to be provocative.


Edited by Dean - October 31 2015 at 13:24
What?
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