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Guldbamsen 
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
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 Posted: September 30 2015 at 01:35 |
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Quick question: do we allow our collaborators to post reviews they haven't done themselves?
Lucas posted a translation of another man's review here http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=1470870 I've always been under the impression that reviews should come from oneself...not some other party. |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Kati
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 01:44 |
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He is open and honest by clearly stating and I quote: "The text below is my translation of a review originally written in French by (......), and published on his website (......)". I don't see why this should be a problem at all? He did translate this long review himself from French to English. Also it's the first review that this band has on here. I think overall this review is a great contribution to this site. It is a review, the source was also clearly stated on there.  In all honesty, Lucas could easily have written his own review, his music knowledge is vast, this is a fact, he obviously thinks this review deserves to be on here and also probably took much longer to translate this review instead of writing his own, thus kudos for that.
Edited by Kati - September 30 2015 at 01:48 |
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14110 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 05:00 |
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We don't know whether the original author was aware and happy of this. Probably yes, but we may incur in some copyright infringement. Lucas has been honest and has clearly stated the facts, but I don't think we can accept publishing material coming from other sites, unless we have a formal approval from the original author. In the impossibility of keeping track of all the approvals, I think the review should be deleted. As you have written Lucas can write his own. He can also quote parts of the original review, but a complete translation may be a problem. I'm happy to be wrong if it's the case.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Raff
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 05:37 |
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The review is clearly attributed to its rightful author, and also
mentions the website where it was originally published. This is correct
way to go about it on the Internet. I know it from personal experience,
as my reviews have been pilfered on more than one occasion. For all we
know, Lucas may well have asked the author for permission, and - as he
followed the correct procedure - this is good publicity for both the
author and his site.
The problem, as David pointed out, is that reviews should be written by the person who posts them. This is not a blog, which can have guest posts clearly indicated as such. In this case, the review will be added to Lucas's tally, and only those who read it will know it wasn't written by him. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 07:25 |
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This sets a bad precedent that needs to be nipped in the bud before this kind of thing gets completely out of hand. Whether duly credited and cited or not, or whether it is used with or without permission, is immaterial - it's not Lucas' review so it must be deleted. This review can only be posted under an account set-up by the author, even if the translations were done by a third party.
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Angelo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 09:12 |
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Oh boy.... ProgArchives is becoming a bureaucracy of European Union proportions. This is a load of bollocks if ever there was one. As Raff stated, this is the internet - do things the way the rest of the internet do it, instead of making up nonsense rules and making live harder on everyone.
A few months ago people were complaining that less and less people post reviews, now somebody posts a review that is written by, but also clearly attributed to, someone else and you are complaining again.... Why not be happy to have the review and cherish it - instead of talking about 'uncontrollable precidents' and 'copyright infringements'? If you want to scare people away from the site, go down that road - by all means.
Edited by Angelo - September 30 2015 at 09:14 |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 09:58 |
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The rule has always been there Angelo; members must write their own reviews. It's not a new thang or something I, or anyone else here, just thought up to irritate Lucas.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Angelo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 10:28 |
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I've been on the admin team for four years anderhalve never come acties this rule David. Where is it written? So far you only asked whether it exists - not pointed it out.
And to be honest, this has nothing to do with Lucas, although I like him a lot, but everything with the Ministry of Silly Rules this site is becoming. Edited by Angelo - September 30 2015 at 10:30 |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 10:41 |
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The Ministry of Silly Rules... really? What new rules have been created recently?
The Reviews Guidelines mentions citing any quotes used, and by "quote" we have to take the fair-use meaning of the term here - a few choice lines is regarded as "fair-use", the entire review (even when translated from another language) is not "fair-use".
Surely no one expects us to have a Silly Rule that specifically forbids quoting an entire review from another site... that should be common sense. |
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Angelo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 10:48 |
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Not having that rule is perfect. Applying it anyway is not common sense, otherwise there would be no discussion.
There is no reason to not allow it, given that the source is mentioned. In this case it is actually a perfect workaround for the rule that reviews should be in English. Removing it is disrespectful toward both Lucas and the author. Edited by Angelo - September 30 2015 at 10:49 |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Guldbamsen
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Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 10:49 |
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You're right, the guidelines say: <p ="msonormal"="" style="line-height: 14.56px; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; : rgb248, 248, 252;">9 - When quoting from elsewhere, ensure due credit is clearly given. Do not copy reviews or text from other sources and attempt to pass them off as your own.<p ="msonormal"="" style="line-height: 14.56px; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; : rgb248, 248, 252;"><o:p>[COLOR=#000000" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/COLOR]</o:p><p ="msonormal"="" style="line-height: 14.56px; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; : rgb248, 248, 252;">10 - Any impersonation of another reviewer will be treated as an abuse of the Prog Archives site, and the offender will be barred from further use of the site. <span style="line-height: 14.56px;">I don't think anyone could've imagined that a future member would "quote" (and translate) a full review from somewhere else.....without adding his own voice.</span><div style="line-height: 14.56px;">Personally I believe a review should be done by oneself. ...and I like Lucas too  EDIT: Ninja'd by Dean! Edited by Guldbamsen - September 30 2015 at 13:21 |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Angelo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 10:52 |
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Those are rules on impersonation, not on posting a translated copy with source credits.
This is exactly the kind of silliness I mean. Hiding behind reinterpreted rules for no good reason. |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Guldbamsen
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Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 10:56 |
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I stated my piece. I'm not interested in a heated debate.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Angelo
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 11:06 |
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Sure, have a good time.
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 11:31 |
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Everyone likes Lucas ... what's not to like? But that's not the point.
Common sense: We trust Lucas, Lucas evidently knows Philippe as Lucas is listed as a contributor to his website, so the translation is legitimate and all above board. Yip-di-doo, everyones's happy as pigs in poop. Now what happens when Joe Soap follows Lucas' example and trawls the internet for reviews of his favourite album to paste them here? What common sense do we apply now? Then what happens when the original author sees them here and gets pissy about it?
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Angelo
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 11:36 |
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Then we do what we have to do. Delete it for copyright infringement. Common sense as ever.
Pre-emptively deleting this one just because Joe Soap might get the idea in his head that it would be fun to tease those little collabs on PA (it never happened before, at least not in excess, and Joe Soap will very likely never see Lucas' review, which has probably left the front page already by now) and start trawling the internet to post stolen reviews. No written rule is broken here, deleting this review is (again) disrespectful toward two decent reviewers and anything but a good advertisement for ProgArchives. We need to encourage people to post reviews, not discourage the ones who are out of their own motivation putting in the effort to do this.
Edited by Angelo - September 30 2015 at 11:37 |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Todd
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RPI / Heavy Prog Team Joined: December 19 2007 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 3472 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 11:52 |
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Why not encourage him to edit the review and add his own thoughts as well? I've seen many reviews quote other reviewers verbatim in the context of their own assessment.
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Angelo
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 12:19 |
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Nice suggestion, but with or without his own comments, he hasn't broken any rule. Glad you've seen it happen in other places though, apparently is has never been a problem until today.
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 13:04 |
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Where is the disrespect to either of them? This is just silly. It's not disrespectful to Lucas to tell him he made a mistake and it's certainly not disrespectful to the person who wrote the original review (who may or may not be aware it's even here). However, if Philippe Vallin is happy for his review to be here then he can register an account and post Lucas' translation.
Fixed
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: September 30 2015 at 13:06 |
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Verbatim, Yes, but every single word, No. (A translation can never be "verbatim"
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Guldbamsen wrote: