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Topic ClosedWho is your favourite revolutionary?
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Poll Question: Who is your favourite revolutionary?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
3 [8.33%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [5.56%]
3 [8.33%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [2.78%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [5.56%]
1 [2.78%]
1 [2.78%]
0 [0.00%]
17 [47.22%]
6 [16.67%]
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Triceratopsoil View Drop Down
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 15:18
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

and, of course, in their ingrained anti-Semitism.


Antisemitism is nowhere near as prominent as Israel/ADF/UN/etc would like everybody to believe, anywhere in world except maybe the middle east and some parts of Asia and continental Africa.

Also I have yet to see a valid argument for why anti-immigration stances are supposed to be a bad thing.  The economic reasons alone are significant, not even getting into e.g. crime statistics or demographic replacement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE
 
Actually, there was a discussion on NPR this morning that stated that economists, for the most part, agree that immigration has a positive effect on the economy.
 
 


lol NPR

it has a positive effect on the wallets of CEOs

Watching the middle class here get decimated by cheap Filipino labour imports has been educational.

Better yet, ask Germany about the strain on their welfare system


Edited by Triceratopsoil - September 19 2015 at 15:21
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Points: 65250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 16:24
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Also I have yet to see a valid argument for why anti-immigration stances are supposed to be a bad thing.  The economic reasons alone are significant, not even getting into e.g. crime statistics or demographic replacement.

Oh no you din'nt.   You're either misinformed or your data is old.   Yes let's do get into "crime statistics" or "demographic replacement" (whatever that's trying to mean).   In the US, the immigrant population is so much less involved in crime, fraud and tax evasion than the domestic population, it is to laugh.   And it makes sense: why would anyone come all the way here just to screw themselves and family back home by committing crimes or ripping people off.   They own fewer unsecured firearms, tend to pay close attention to the politics of the moment, work extremely hard, vote, and educate their kids to the best of their ability.   Immigrants, even many illegal ones, will be America's saving grace, not its scourge.
 
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 16:28
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Also I have yet to see a valid argument for why anti-immigration stances are supposed to be a bad thing.  The economic reasons alone are significant, not even getting into e.g. crime statistics or demographic replacement.

Oh no you din'nt.   You're either misinformed or your data is old.   Yes let's do get into "crime statistics" or "demographic replacement" (whatever that's trying to mean).   In the US, the immigrant population is so much less involved in crime, fraud and tax evasion than the domestic population, it is to laugh.   And it makes sense: why would anyone come all the way here just to screw themselves and family back home by committing crimes or ripping people off.   They own fewer unsecured firearms, tend to pay close attention to the politics of the moment, work extremely hard, vote, and educate their kids to the best of their ability.   Immigrants, even many illegal ones, will be America's saving grace, not its scourge.
 



Thank you, DavidSmile. In case someone didn't know, I am an immigrant to the US, and don't think the country is any worse off for having allowed me to live here.
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Points: 65250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 16:29
^ Precisely, you fiery Roman you.
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Points: 2223 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 17:19
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Also I have yet to see a valid argument for why anti-immigration stances are supposed to be a bad thing.  The economic reasons alone are significant, not even getting into e.g. crime statistics or demographic replacement.

Oh no you din'nt.   You're either misinformed or your data is old.   Yes let's do get into "crime statistics" or "demographic replacement" (whatever that's trying to mean).   In the US, the immigrant population is so much less involved in crime, fraud and tax evasion than the domestic population, it is to laugh.   And it makes sense: why would anyone come all the way here just to screw themselves and family back home by committing crimes or ripping people off.   They own fewer unsecured firearms, tend to pay close attention to the politics of the moment, work extremely hard, vote, and educate their kids to the best of their ability.   Immigrants, even many illegal ones, will be America's saving grace, not its scourge.
 



Thank you, DavidSmile. In case someone didn't know, I am an immigrant to the US, and don't think the country is any worse off for having allowed me to live here.
 
My husband is also an immigrant, as were my grandparents on both sides (my paternal grandfather illegally, I should add).  We have displaced no one, and never committed any crimes.  Although I did get a parking ticket once... but that was 14 years ago.
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Points: 8052 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 18:28
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Again justifying genocide.

No country ever started with  so much blood as USSR

No country lets millions of persons die of hunger while selling the double of grain to other countries.
No country eliminated every bi of freedom for 60 years


You keep using the word 'genocide' - which is specifically about ethnic cleansing and incorrect when applied to Stalin's purges. The actual genocides in Russia were against Turkic peoples and happened in the 5 or 6 decades before the advent of Communism.

On your point about freedom, the US had slavery for how long? Interracial marriage was not a constitutional right in the US until 1967.

Originally posted by Ivan Ivan wrote:

USA wasn't invaded, that's right, but they didn't needed to and their people to Europe, they risked their lives in a war that wasn't their's, they could had focused in Japan

USSR was invaded by their NAZI ALLIES,

They were co-responsible of the war, if they had confronted Germany from the start and not only when their dreams of expansion collision with the one of their allies the war would had lasted half of the time


The US joined the war because Germany and Japan declared war on them. Prior to that they had been studiously maintaining neutrality while squeezing every last nickel out of the British Empire.


Originally posted by Ivan Ivan wrote:

Misleading?

Is an absolute truth, and if their interests in Western Europe wouldn't had been opposed to the ones of the Nazis, they would had never joined the allies 
 

Absolute truth is that without the USSR's extraordinary resilience and suffering in World War 2, it would have been impossible for the allies to win. Had it come to the land war in Europe that would have followed without a settlement between the USSR and the allies, the USSR would almost certainly have won. The USSR also discouraged communist coups in France and Italy in the years immediately after the war. The USSR was the side that prevented nuclear war during the Cuban Missile Crisis by climbing down in the face of Kennedy's *insane* brinksmanship. One suspects that the USSR's original alliance with the Nazis might not have taken place had it not been for the fact that Britain, France and various Eastern European coalitions had invaded Russia in the aftermath of WW1.

None of this *justifies* Stalin's purges, but we probably all owe Khrushchev our lives at this point and anyone who's glad the Nazis aren't still in Europe owes that to a number of deeply flawed nations - the USSR, the British Empire and the USA.
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Points: 8052 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 18:36
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

(...)
Ouch

The last ones are the only dangerous.
Les mascotas del Capitalismo?

We are pets of nobody 

We have some lunatics as anywhere.

BTW: Since when is Nazism related with capitalism?

I have proved here that Nazism is a left wing movement.

Here you can read some of the 25-point Program of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei 

10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:

11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.

12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the Nationalization  of all (previous) associated industries (trusts)

14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army


But this one is eye opening

25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the Landers The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

Change Landers for Soviets, and you have the Communist manifesto


Fascism is a national movement. Communism is international (which is one of the biggest things Stalin and Lenin abandoned, and which is what the US tried to prevent at any cost through friends like Pinochet, warfare and illegal blockades) and at its best anarchic in nature.

I'd also note that Communism is egalitarian whereas Nazism is not. I suspect that what you're looking at with all that bold text is the fact that a command economy and extremely centralised power is the only possible way to wager a full-scale war and if you don't think the US and Britain implemented much of that in WW2 you're deluding yourself.
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Points: 8052 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 18:40
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

and, of course, in their ingrained anti-Semitism.


Antisemitism is nowhere near as prominent as Israel/ADF/UN/etc would like everybody to believe, anywhere in world except maybe the middle east and some parts of Asia and continental Africa.

Also I have yet to see a valid argument for why anti-immigration stances are supposed to be a bad thing.  The economic reasons alone are significant, not even getting into e.g. crime statistics or demographic replacement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE


My fiancée's an immigrant, has always worked and never done anything criminal, which is a damn sight better than a lot of British people. Anyone who wants to say she shouldn't be here on the grounds of statistics can get f**ked.
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Points: 65250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 18:50
^ More than a "valid argument", pure empirical evidence.  Even better, a reality.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 19:02
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Ivan, being left-wing does not mean being in support of totalitarianism, genocide and other such things. Remember that there are substantial differences between Europe (where I am from) and the Americas, especially South America. No left-wing movement in modern Europe (unless we are talking about minority outliers) is anywhere in favour of any of the things listed in the Nazi manifesto.

One thing, however, is true: far-right movements in Europe, in terms of economic policies, are much more similar to the far left than to laissez-faire capitalism (which they abhor). Where they diverge is in terms of social policies, especially regarding immigrants and gays - and, of course, in their ingrained anti-Semitism.

I know Raff, neither being right wing means being an insensitive criminal.

A person is a criminal independently of his ideology.

There is a Pinochet and there is a Pol Pot, there's a Hitler and there's a Stalin, there are criminals everywhere.

But people like Svetonio shout Capitalist Nazis, when as a fact they are closer to extreme communists than to whatever they call capitalists (If there's such thing today).




Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 19 2015 at 19:12
            
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 19:09
Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

The US joined the war because Germany and Japan declared war on them. Prior to that they had been studiously maintaining neutrality while squeezing every last nickel out of the British Empire.

They didn't needed to enter to the Europe war theater, they could had focused in the Pacific and Japan and let France, United Kingdom and USSR deal with Hitler.

Hitler was no threat for USA, they were too busy dealing with all Europe and would eventually fall, but they took the risk and paid the cost.
            
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Points: 65250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 19:48
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Not sure how we got on to Star Trek (weird things happen when you sleep) but it's a welcome change.
Anytime I post in a thread it will eventually come around to Trek.
 
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 20:47
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Not sure how we got on to Star Trek (weird things happen when you sleep) but it's a welcome change.
Anytime I post in a thread it will eventually come around to Trek.
 


no doubt man... it will happen when you get together in a thread

the old Art Rock thugs..



bad enough .. but when you add

Sventorio/the Kommandant



this Triceratops character



and THEN add a dash of Ivan..



a dash of Dean..



a lashing of some red hot Terri


what do you get...
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Points: 65250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 20:57
Approve
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 23:57
I thought svetonio would be a redshirt
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No, redshirts die notoriously fast.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2015 at 02:03
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

(...)




Ouch

The last ones are the only dangerous.
Les mascotas del Capitalismo?

We are pets of nobody 

We have some lunatics as anywhere.

BTW: Since when is Nazism related with capitalism?

I have proved here that Nazism is a left wing movement.

Here you can read some of the 25-point Program of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei 

10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:

11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.

12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the Nationalization  of all (previous) associated industries (trusts)

14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army


But this one is eye opening

25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the Landers The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

Change Landers for Soviets, and you have the Communist manifesto



Nazism, reprehensible as it was, appeared after Russian revolution 1917 and nazism was an excessive reaction to the Communist threat on capitalism. Nazism replaced the class struggle with the struggle between "Aryans" at one side, and Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and others "non-Aryans" on other side.
Nazism displaces the class struggle onto racial struggle and in doing so, nazism show its true nature. What changes in the passage from Communism to Nazism is a matter of form, but that where the Nazi ideological mystification resides actually is the political struggle to the invasion of a "foreign" (Jewish) body which disturbs that fantasized "harmony" of the "Aryan" community.
 
So that neo-liberal attitude towards Communism and nazism that they are both bad - is a priori wrong.
When, in September 2003, Silvio Berlusconi provoked a violent outcry with his observation that Mussolini, unlike Hitler, Stalin or Saddam Hussein, never killed anyone, the true scandal was the fact that this statement is far from the expression of a specific Berlusconi's view of reality, was part of an ongoing project to change the terms of a postwar European identity, which until then had been based on anti-Fascist unity. This is the real context in which to understand the call of European conservatives in 2003 to ban communist symbols; it was a group of proto-fascist members of the European Parliament in 2003, mostly from ex-Communist countries, demanded that ban to the Communist symbols: not only the hammer and sickle, but even the red star.
 
And why do countries of Western Europe and the United States did not open a second front during the Second World War until 1944?
Is the reason perhaps that it was selling weapons technology, products and other goods on both sides during the conflict? Why would enter the war conflict and lowered so great profits from both sides, and why the leaders of Poland and other European countries had attitude that, ''rather kneel in front of Hitler, but not to allow the presence of the Red Army on its territory''?
Because they knew that under Hitler's nazism, if they cooperate with him, they would preserve their private industry and profits, while in real socialism it will never happen - all this would be under nationalization in the real socialism.
So it was clear to the imperialists that communism was / is much more dangerous than nazism / fascism, because nazism / fascism will always to preserve that big (private) business.

Edited by Svetonio - September 20 2015 at 13:34
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"communism isn't bad, it's only big business lying to you"
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Relevant:
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2015 at 03:48
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

I thought svetonio would be a redshirt
I'm not overly thrilled about being cast as The Keeper, a Talosian with the ability to distort reality. I guess that my three years aboard the Starship Art Rock (TNG) was just another illusion.
What?
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