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Topic ClosedWho is your favourite revolutionary?

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Poll Question: Who is your favourite revolutionary?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
3 [8.33%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [5.56%]
3 [8.33%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [2.78%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [5.56%]
1 [2.78%]
1 [2.78%]
0 [0.00%]
17 [47.22%]
6 [16.67%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

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Triceratopsoil View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 19:36
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Your comment regarding understanding of the confederate flag is inaccurate. People may say that they understand the confederate flag differently than that, but if you explore their belief it turns out to be code for nostalgia for a world where people with their skin color got to oppress people with a different skin color. The confederacy was founded on the principle that black people should be enslaved. The defense of states' rights and a "southern" way of life is a post-civil war construct that enabled white people to disguise their racism by pretending that the confederacy and the civil war were not what they in fact were.
 
Take your argument to its logical conclusion. Would you fly a swastika?  why not, if it's just a piece of fabric?  The answers to these queries are so obvious that you can treat them as a rhetorical questions.


Intentionally inflammatory and misleading.  You should know better than that.

And no, I wouldn't fly a swastika, but I wouldn't ostracize people for choosing to do so.  It was, after all, a symbol with very different meanings further back in history.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 21:04
Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:


Stalin and Mao had both seen what happens to peaceful communists - the capitalist and quasi-feudal societies around them destroy them. 

So.......That justifies more or less 120'000,000 humans assasinated?

If they don't exterminate our system, we exterminate our own people.

Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

The US in the same period murdered its own citizens, blacklisted moderate artists, started wars and coups abroad in a paranoiac attempt to stem the 'domino effect'. 

Who justifies the USA crimes?

Even when not remotely a shadow of what the USSR did.

Artists were blacklisted but everybody who opposed  Stalin was sent to a Kulag or killed.

USA didn't had an organized genocide as the USSR or China in Tibet.

Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Admittedly it never quite reached the same snowball of madness that Stalin did but then Stalin had profited much less from WW2 than the US did.

For God's sake

Have you heard of the Warsaw Pact?

USSR occupied half Europe, despite they had been allies of the Nazis, and this occupation allowed them to survive 40 more years.

And they were allowed


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 18 2015 at 21:06
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 21:35
I hate the Confederate flag but if I'm being honest, you can't really stop someone from flying a symbol in the US, that's kinda the point (even a swastika which of course turns up in everything from Native Am culture to North Asian, not to mention American Nazi Party).  If a state wants to end its use of it that's fine and probably for the best (especially since few taxpayers want to have to pay for new flags), but the rebel flag is a big part of history, it is also a symbol to be opposed, and there to remind us to oppose it.





Edited by Atavachron - September 18 2015 at 21:47
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 23:37
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Your comment regarding understanding of the confederate flag is inaccurate. People may say that they understand the confederate flag differently than that, but if you explore their belief it turns out to be code for nostalgia for a world where people with their skin color got to oppress people with a different skin color. The confederacy was founded on the principle that black people should be enslaved. The defense of states' rights and a "southern" way of life is a post-civil war construct that enabled white people to disguise their racism by pretending that the confederacy and the civil war were not what they in fact were.
 
Take your argument to its logical conclusion. Would you fly a swastika?  why not, if it's just a piece of fabric?  The answers to these queries are so obvious that you can treat them as a rhetorical questions.


Intentionally inflammatory and misleading.  You should know better than that.

And no, I wouldn't fly a swastika, but I wouldn't ostracize people for choosing to do so.  It was, after all, a symbol with very different meanings further back in history.
 
I do know better. From Alex Stephens' speech, made shortly after secession (I inserted italics to make it easier to navigate):
 

"The new Constitution [i.e. the confederate constitution] has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.
 
. . . look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgement of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws."
 
So in fact there was nothing either misleading or inflammatory about my statement. The confederacy was a state founded upon the principle that blacks should be enslaved. Its vice president said so clearly shortly after the southern states seceded and formed the confederacy.
 
Also: I would totally ostracize people who flew a swastika. I agree that it was a symbol long before the Nazis took it over. They, however, gave it the meaning we associate with it today, and no one who uses it today could possibly argue that it was meant innocently.  Which is why the only people who ever do use it are far right-wing extremists, exactly the sort of people who should be ostracized.


Edited by emigre80 - September 19 2015 at 08:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 23:44
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

(...) Joseph Stalin was every bit as horrible as Hitler was. (...)


Do you ever feel ashamed, Guldb?







That is perhaps one of the most disgusting things you've ever posted, and I resent you for it.
Members of my family (on my father's side) were in concentration camps during WWll, so you are very close to home here.
 
(...)
If that's true, then I asked you the right question.
 
Svetonio, stop it! Your last comment was very insensitive and cruel to be honest, this is not like you at all, you are a sweet nice person, take it back and pretty please apologize to Guldbamsen? Ouch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 23:44
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I hate the Confederate flag but if I'm being honest, you can't really stop someone from flying a symbol in the US, that's kinda the point (even a swastika which of course turns up in everything from Native Am culture to North Asian, not to mention American Nazi Party).  If a state wants to end its use of it that's fine and probably for the best (especially since few taxpayers want to have to pay for new flags), but the rebel flag is a big part of history, it is also a symbol to be opposed, and there to remind us to oppose it.
 
Exactly, which is why it should be displayed in museums and other places devoted to history, not on the back of f*cking pick-up trucks that the rest of us have to stare at while driving in traffic.
 
No one should be confronted with the symbols of their own oppression as a part of daily life. I realize that is not always avoidable, but the casual use of the flag on bumper stickers, t-shirts, etc. (not to mention it flying from a state capital) should be subject to societal censure.
 
I realize that this symbol cannot be banned.  Its use should be as unacceptable as that of the swastika, and confined to the hate groups who nostalgically view oppression as part of their "heritage".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 23:47
It would depend on what the swastika looks like for me. It's an important symbol in most of the dharmic religions so there are definitely valid reasons to still use it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 23:52
^ I concede that it may appear entirely different to non-Western eyes.  I can't get past it myself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 23:58
So you concede that you judge anybody who doesn't share your perceptions.  I'm not surprised.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 00:04
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

It would depend on what the swastika looks like for me. It's an important symbol in most of the dharmic religions so there are definitely valid reasons to still use it.
Hitler took the idea of the swastika from Hinduism and Buddhism religion however he did add a little changes to it, to me the horror and pain of Hitlers atrocities of inhumane and cruel human genocide completely out ways any religious beliefs it may stand for, Hitler made sure of that by ruining that symbol image for good. I personally find it very insensitive for anyone to parade around with it because it has become a symbol of suffering, pain and evil. I say this putting myself in those people's shoes, however I cannot be in their shoes because I was lucky not to be placed in those circumstances, I cannot even imagine the terror or pain they had suffered really. Those who suffered under hitler, had their dignity removed from them, shot or taken to concentration camps to work, meanwhile seeing and knowing that their loved ones/ family member were being gassed and cremated, while seeing the black smoke that was coming out of the chimneys from the crematorium in site and on sight. How cruel can this be? How would you feel?
   
Swastika is a symbol of pain and horror, thus why would one want to parade around with that?


Edited by Kati - September 19 2015 at 00:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 00:16
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

So you concede that you judge anybody who doesn't share your perceptions.  I'm not surprised.
 
You're young.  You'll get over it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 00:20
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Communism didn't existed yet, Evil Socialism is destroyed, but who cares? The fruits of that export of Democracy you can see everywhere now...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Quote Wikileaks has obtained and decrypted this previously unreleased video footage from a US Apache helicopter in 2007. It shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, driver Saeed Chmagh, and several others as the Apache shoots and kills them in a public square in Eastern Baghdad. They are apparently assumed to be insurgents. After the initial shooting, an unarmed group of adults and children in a minivan arrives on the scene and attempts to transport the wounded. They are fired upon as well. The official statement on this incident initially listed all adults as insurgents and claimed the US military did not know how the deaths ocurred. Wikileaks released this video with transcripts and a package of supporting documents on April 5th 2010 on http://collateralmurder.com 
In what bleeding universe do two wrongs make a right? Evil is Evil. Killing is Killing.
One evil is not better than another! Do you understand this?
 
Please update your demagogy, Steve.


Edited by Svetonio - September 19 2015 at 10:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 00:24
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

So you concede that you judge anybody who doesn't share your perceptions.  I'm not surprised.
 
You're young.  You'll get over it.


You're old, you won't
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 00:29
Already there, mate.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 00:41
And now you're a tolerate person, but only tolerant of the right things like a good goy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 00:52
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

And now you're a tolerate person, but only tolerant of the right things like a good goy.
 
Please translate.  "A good goy"?  A "tolerate person"?
 
I don't tolerate intolerance, if that's what you are asking.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 01:00
Are you sure you guys haven't switched countries?
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 01:05
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Are you sure you guys haven't switched countries?
I'm a citizen of the world LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 01:09
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Communism didn't existed yet, Evil Socialism is destroyed, but who cares? The fruits of that export of Democracy you can see everywhere now...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Quote Wikileaks has obtained and decrypted this previously unreleased video footage from a US Apache helicopter in 2007. It shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, driver Saeed Chmagh, and several others as the Apache shoots and kills them in a public square in Eastern Baghdad. They are apparently assumed to be insurgents. After the initial shooting, an unarmed group of adults and children in a minivan arrives on the scene and attempts to transport the wounded. They are fired upon as well. The official statement on this incident initially listed all adults as insurgents and claimed the US military did not know how the deaths ocurred. Wikileaks released this video with transcripts and a package of supporting documents on April 5th 2010 on http://collateralmurder.com 
In what bleeding universe do two wrongs make a right? Evil is Evil. Killing is Killing.
One evil is not better than another! Do you understand this?
 
Please update you demagogie, Steve.
 
Sventonio, that's not fair what you said either, before communism I know even the tsar of Russia sent many people to harsh working camps without any conditions i.e. St. Pietersburg was a swamp and built inc. land to make it look like Western Europe, many people starved to death prior to communism however your link above certainly does not outweigh the atrocities done under the communism regime and here is a link too which does not even nearly comes close to making it look as bad as it was during those times:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2015 at 01:28
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Communism didn't existed yet, Evil Socialism is destroyed, but who cares? The fruits of that export of Democracy you can see everywhere now...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Quote Wikileaks has obtained and decrypted this previously unreleased video footage from a US Apache helicopter in 2007. It shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, driver Saeed Chmagh, and several others as the Apache shoots and kills them in a public square in Eastern Baghdad. They are apparently assumed to be insurgents. After the initial shooting, an unarmed group of adults and children in a minivan arrives on the scene and attempts to transport the wounded. They are fired upon as well. The official statement on this incident initially listed all adults as insurgents and claimed the US military did not know how the deaths ocurred. Wikileaks released this video with transcripts and a package of supporting documents on April 5th 2010 on http://collateralmurder.com 
In what bleeding universe do two wrongs make a right? Evil is Evil. Killing is Killing.
One evil is not better than another! Do you understand this?
 
Please update you demagogie, Steve.
 
Sventonio, that's not fair what you said either, before communism I know even the tsar of Russia sent many people to harsh working camps without any conditions i.e. St. Pietersburg was a swamp and built inc. land to make it look like Western Europe, many people starved to death prior to communism however your link above certainly does not outweigh the atrocities done under the communism regime and here is a link too which does not even nearly comes close to making it look as bad as it was during those times:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
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