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Topic ClosedWho is your favourite revolutionary?

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Poll Question: Who is your favourite revolutionary?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
3 [8.33%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [5.56%]
3 [8.33%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [2.78%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [5.56%]
1 [2.78%]
1 [2.78%]
0 [0.00%]
17 [47.22%]
6 [16.67%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:00
Communism didn't existed yet, Evil Socialism is destroyed, but who cares? The fruits of that export of Democracy you can see everywhere now...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Quote Wikileaks has obtained and decrypted this previously unreleased video footage from a US Apache helicopter in 2007. It shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, driver Saeed Chmagh, and several others as the Apache shoots and kills them in a public square in Eastern Baghdad. They are apparently assumed to be insurgents. After the initial shooting, an unarmed group of adults and children in a minivan arrives on the scene and attempts to transport the wounded. They are fired upon as well. The official statement on this incident initially listed all adults as insurgents and claimed the US military did not know how the deaths ocurred. Wikileaks released this video with transcripts and a package of supporting documents on April 5th 2010 on http://collateralmurder.com 


Edited by Svetonio - September 18 2015 at 15:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:09
If you didn't notice in the ideology thread, a good portion of the forum is left leaning. No one is saying communism is evil. Lots of people do however tend to dislike assassins, terrorists and dictators who are responsible for millions of their own peoples deaths. It's a weird quirk some of us have.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:12
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Communism didn't existed yet, Evil Socialism is destroyed, but who cares? The fruits of that export of Democracy you can see everywhere now...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Quote Wikileaks has obtained and decrypted this previously unreleased video footage from a US Apache helicopter in 2007. It shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, driver Saeed Chmagh, and several others as the Apache shoots and kills them in a public square in Eastern Baghdad. They are apparently assumed to be insurgents. After the initial shooting, an unarmed group of adults and children in a minivan arrives on the scene and attempts to transport the wounded. They are fired upon as well. The official statement on this incident initially listed all adults as insurgents and claimed the US military did not know how the deaths ocurred. Wikileaks released this video with transcripts and a package of supporting documents on April 5th 2010 on http://collateralmurder.com 
In what bleeding universe do two wrongs make a right? Evil is Evil. Killing is Killing.
One evil is not better than another! Do you understand this?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:18
Good luck with getting an answer to that one Steve
What?
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:20
Yes, I know. I just forgot myself.
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emigre80 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:42
It seems important to point out that idiocy is idiocy, but one's forehead does get bloody from banging it into the same brick wall.
 
I attended a forum last night (in person not on line) discussing the removal of confederate symbols from the public sphere.  The consensus was that they should be confined to public spheres like museums, where they could function as educational opportunities.
 
Of course there was a person who got up and ranted about heritage. Everyone agreed that it was important to maintain a dialogue with those who hold, um, "less-informed" (i.e. racist) opinions, but what no one could answer was the question of how to talk to fools and morons. I am not sure there is an answer to that one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:45
^Clap
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Triceratopsoil View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:52
I still don't get what's wrong with a piece of fabric.  I guarantee sales of confederate flags only went up after the whathaveyou, because certain people realized how much it annoys leftists.

Anybody remember the days when "liberalism" included Voltaire's ideals?  It wasn't even that long ago.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:09
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

I still don't get what's wrong with a piece of fabric.  I guarantee sales of confederate flags only went up after the whathaveyou, because certain people realized how much it annoys leftists.

Anybody remember the days when "liberalism" included Voltaire's ideals?  It wasn't even that long ago.
 
That piece of fabric is a symbol of a nation that existed to oppress and enslave an enormous number of people. Symbols matter, as they signal to others that you approve of the ideas those symbols represent.
 
I am probably less familiar with Voltaire's ideals than you are - can you please remind me which one of them said it's okay to celebrate racism and oppression? I do recall that he was willing to defend ideas which he did not agree with, but that is not the same as honoring hatred.
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Triceratopsoil View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:13
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

I still don't get what's wrong with a piece of fabric.  I guarantee sales of confederate flags only went up after the whathaveyou, because certain people realized how much it annoys leftists.

Anybody remember the days when "liberalism" included Voltaire's ideals?  It wasn't even that long ago.
 
That piece of fabric is a symbol of a nation that existed to oppress and enslave an enormous number of people. Symbols matter, as they signal to others that you approve of the ideas those symbols represent.
 
I am probably less familiar with Voltaire's ideals than you are - can you please remind me which one of them said it's okay to celebrate racism and oppression? I do recall that he was willing to defend ideas which he did not agree with, but that is not the same as honoring hatred.


It's been shown that many, many people understand the confederate flag differently than that.  I wouldn't presume that everybody shares my interpretation.  The modern obsession with calling everybody racist over minor, non-race-related things is absurd.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:25
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

I still don't get what's wrong with a piece of fabric.  I guarantee sales of confederate flags only went up after the whathaveyou, because certain people realized how much it annoys leftists.

Anybody remember the days when "liberalism" included Voltaire's ideals?  It wasn't even that long ago.
 
That piece of fabric is a symbol of a nation that existed to oppress and enslave an enormous number of people. Symbols matter, as they signal to others that you approve of the ideas those symbols represent.
 
I am probably less familiar with Voltaire's ideals than you are - can you please remind me which one of them said it's okay to celebrate racism and oppression? I do recall that he was willing to defend ideas which he did not agree with, but that is not the same as honoring hatred.


It's been shown that many, many people understand the confederate flag differently than that.  I wouldn't presume that everybody shares my interpretation.  The modern obsession with calling everybody racist over minor, non-race-related things is absurd.
Your comment regarding understanding of the confederate flag is inaccurate. People may say that they understand the confederate flag differently than that, but if you explore their belief it turns out to be code for nostalgia for a world where people with their skin color got to oppress people with a different skin color. The confederacy was founded on the principle that black people should be enslaved. The defense of states' rights and a "southern" way of life is a post-civil war construct that enabled white people to disguise their racism by pretending that the confederacy and the civil war were not what they in fact were.
 
Take your argument to its logical conclusion. Would you fly a swastika?  why not, if it's just a piece of fabric?  The answers to these queries are so obvious that you can treat them as a rhetorical questions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:31
As a non-American and not a historian, can some one tell me what the confederate flag is actually from, and what it is for today? because I assume, naively perhaps, that it was never a national flag before, during or after your civil war. Which means it was probably a battle flag of some kind, and of the loosing side at that. This gives it a tad more significance than being just a bit of fabric...
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:39
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

As a non-American and not a historian, can some one tell me what the confederate flag is actually from, and what it is for today? because I assume, naively perhaps, that it was never a national flag before, during or after your civil war. Which means it was probably a battle flag of some kind, and of the loosing side at that. This gives it a tad more significance than being just a bit of fabric...
 
It was a national flag, the flag adopted by the Confederate States of America after they seceded from the United States (note, according to Wiki, it was the third and last flag adopted by the CSA).  As such, it was the symbol of the Confederacy, which was founded to protect the institution of slavery from abolitionists.  It has continued to represent white supremacy, which is why it is such a powerful symbol and one that conveys a strong and repugnant message.
 
And no, it's not just a piece of fabric.


Edited by emigre80 - September 18 2015 at 16:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:41

From Wikipedia:

Southern historian Gordon Rhea further wrote in 2011 that:

It is no accident that Confederate symbols have been the mainstay of white supremacist organizations, from the Ku Klux Klan to the skinheads. They did not appropriate the Confederate battle flag simply because it was pretty. They picked it because it was the flag of a nation dedicated to their ideals: 'that the negro is not equal to the white man'. The Confederate flag, we are told, represents heritage, not hate. But why should we celebrate a heritage grounded in hate, a heritage whose self-avowed reason for existence was the exploitation and debasement of a sizeable segment of its population?[24]

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:46
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

As a non-American and not a historian, can some one tell me what the confederate flag is actually from, and what it is for today? because I assume, naively perhaps, that it was never a national flag before, during or after your civil war. Which means it was probably a battle flag of some kind, and of the loosing side at that. This gives it a tad more significance than being just a bit of fabric...
Just as an Americans response and not a historian, the confederate flag or the 'stars and bars' as it was called was the flag designed and used to represent the southern states of the U.S., that seceded from the northern U.S. over the issue of slavery which the north opposed and the south favored. As well as difference's over the power the federal government (the government of the country proper) had over the governments of the many various states, who held that the individual states had a right to govern themselves.
 
After 600,000 northern and southern soldiers died in deadly battles, the southern states were allowed to keep variants of the confederate flag by the now solidified U.S. government, in order to placate the southern states and let them use the flags for memorials and the like.
 
The confederate flag has come to be viewed as a badge of bigotry because of what it represented in the past but also because it was commandeered by white supremacists groups and other bigots such as Nazi skinheads in European countries where the WWII Nazi flag is outlawed.


Edited by SteveG - September 19 2015 at 15:28
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emigre80 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:50
^ "Nazi fag"?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:51
^Fixed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:52

thanks.  but it did make me laugh.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:53
Me too. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2015 at 16:57
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