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Topic ClosedWhy did Roger Waters never get beyond The Wall?

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Kati View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 20:42
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

With Pink Floyd you still have Gilmour's brilliant guitar work.
 
Beyond Gilmour's guitar (this being a big reason I preferred Gilmour post-Wall over Waters), I think it was also that David balanced Roger's eccentricities. Waters was the more manic and shrieking voice, whereas Gilmour has the more calm, mellifluous vocals -- this no better displayed than in the dual vocals of "Comfortably Numb" and "Dogs".
 
Gilmour once referred to himself as "a fatalist, but a happy fatalist", and I think this comes across in Floyd post-Waters. There is hope and at least a search for happiness, whereas Waters remains forever cynical, forever negative: no balance.
Cooee! Roger Waters albums Amused to death had Jeff Beck and Pros and cons of hitchhiking had Eric Clapton!
 
The Dark Elf Hug help please Smile 
 
oh wait! No balance you said? To the naughty corner for you! Pinch


Edited by Kati - July 04 2015 at 20:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 11:56
Maybe because Waters thought that his fellow bandmates were lesser than him? The Final Cut was basically just a solo album.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 04:06
Waters: Why did I fire Rick? Because he was not prepared to cooperate in making the record. (Wearily) What actually happened was The Wall was the first album where we didn't divide the production credit between everybody in the band. At the beginning of the process, when I said I was going to bring Bob Ezrin in and he was going to get paid, I said, "I'm going to produce the record as well, so is Dave, so we're going to get paid as well, but Nick, you don't actually do any record production, and Rick, neither do you. So you're not going to get paid." Nick said fair enough, but Rick said, "No, I produce the records just as much as you do." So we agreed we would start making the record and we would see. But who would be the arbiter? We all agreed on Ezrin. 

So Rick sat in the studio -he would arrive exactly on time, which was very unusual, and stay to the bitter end every night. One day Ezrin said to me - he was slightly irked by this brooding presence very occasionally going "I don't like that" - "Why's Rick here again?" I said, "Don't you get it? He's putting in the time to prove he's a record producer. You talk to him about it." So he did. After that Rick never came to another session, unless he was directly asked to do keyboard tracks. And he became almost incapable of playing any keyboards anyway. It was a nightmare. I think that was the beginning of the end. 
But in the end of the end, since you ask, we had agreed to deliver the album at the beginning of October and we took a break in August to go on holiday. I sat down with a bunch of sheet music and paper and wrote out all the songs and what was needed and made up a schedule, and it became clear to me that we couldn't get it finished in the time available. So I called Ezrin, "Would you be prepared to start a week earlier on the keyboard parts with Rick in Los Angeles?" Eventually he went, "All right. Thanks, pal," -because of the idea of doing keyboard tracks with Rick. I said, "Look, you can get another keyboard player in as well in case it's stuff he can't handle, but if you get all that keyboard overdubbing done before the rest of us arrive we can just about make the end of the schedule." 
A couple of days later I got a call from O'Rourke. I said, "Did you speak to Rick?" "Yeah. He said, 'Tell Roger to f**k off.'" Right, that's it. Here I was doing all this work and Rick had been doing nothing for months and I got "f**k off." I spoke to Dave and Nick and said, "I can't work with this guy, he's impossible," and they both went, "Yeah, he is." 
Anyway, it was agreed by everybody. In order not to get a long drawn-out thing I made the suggestion that O'Rourke gave to Rick: either you can have a long battle or you can agree to this, and the 'this' was you finish making the album, keep your full share of the album, but at the end of it you leave quietly. Rick agreed. So the idea of the big bad Roger suddenly getting rid of Rick for no reason at all on his own is nonsense.

Gilmour: (Sigh) I did not go along with it. I went out to dinner with Rick after Roger had said this to him and said if he wanted to stay in the band I would support him in that. I did point out to Rick that he hadn't contributed anything of any value whatsoever to the album and that I was not over-happy with him myself - he did very very little; an awful lot of the keyboard parts are done by me, Roger, Bob Ezrin, Michael Kamen, Freddie Mandell - but his position in the band to me was sacrosanct. My view, then and now is, if people didn't like the way it was going it was their option to leave. I didn't consider that it was their option to throw people out.

Waters: I had a meeting with Dave in my garden in the South of France at which Dave said, "Let's get rid of Nick too." I bet he doesn't remember that. How inconvenient would that be? I went "Ooh, Dave, Nick's my friend. Steady!"


http://www.pinkfloydz.com/artmojodec99thewall.htm

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2015 at 23:18
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Waters went beyond the wall into the final cut (last Waters Floyd Album) and here is an example: Pink Floyd Final Cut (6) - The Gunner's Dream https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIJN6WWf3Rg&list=PLMyHPEAFkfwPrHo40qr1-pvZEZcejDeOw&index=82x
Heart
listen to the most perfect crescendo at 2.11 vocals added and continued by the saxophone xxxx
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2015 at 23:13
Waters went beyond the wall into the final cut (last Waters Floyd Album) and here is an example: Pink Floyd Final Cut (6) - The Gunner's Dream https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIJN6WWf3Rg&list=PLMyHPEAFkfwPrHo40qr1-pvZEZcejDeOw&index=82
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2015 at 23:10
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:

I still think "The Endless River" has been the best Pink Floyd album without Roger Waters, and I'd even put it above "Animals" and "The Wall".
It does seem Roger's writing dried up. "The Pros And Cons of Hitch-hiking" was also demoed around the time he'd demoed The Wall, so that's both late 70's.
"Radio Kaos" had a germ of a good idea but it was let down by no real musical ideas and terrible writing.
"Amused To Death" was a return to form though. But then Roger just... Drifted off. 
I haven't heard his opera, not really an opera person. And although his recent tour of "The Wall" was successful, it's still material from the late 70's. 
I'm hoping when he finally gets around to releasing "Homeland" it'll show there's life beyond "The Wall".

But what Pink Floyd really needed was a manager to point out how well they worked together, and how the band was bigger than the four of them. So that meant Roger winding himself back in a bit and David being a bit more open to ideas.
The fact they didn't rally round and help Rick Wright when he was having problems is quite sad. He deserved better than to be frozen out. 
I'm not expecting Pink Floyd to become all touchy-feely. Frankly, that would be terrifying!
But they could have done more.

Where's a music based Jeremy Kyle series when you need one! Tongue


Well, I believe David did a lot to help out Rick... just perhaps he was a bit late. For some reason he didn't during the time of The Wall (though we don't really know that, do we? We only know that Waters made hell with him and fired him, why Gilmour didn't or couldn't stop it, we don't know), but then he got Wright back on his feet for A Momentary Lapse of Reason. How much of it was for marketing and how much was for friendship, we don't know either, but Gilmour strikes me like a person who does cares for his friends... Rick was actually barely present on Momentary Lapse, as I understand it, but on the tour he did come back, and he was again working nicely for The Division Bell. And even if Wright still had doubts about himself, David did invite him for the semi-acoustic shows he did (releases on David Gilmour on Concert), and then for the tour of On An Island, in which I believe Rick was actually surprised at the reactions the public showed for him. I believe Gilmour had him on tour to help him out (of course, so that Rick would help Gilmour out, too).
The only lyrical track is sad to be honest one really misses Waters and it also feels unfinished, anyway I am so happy they finally released another album thus good or bad, I'll take it Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2015 at 22:36
Waters' solo output turned deeply acerbic and is so intensely political he gives people a lot to disagree with, especially as he descended into what a lot of people consider intense antisemitism. I think Pros and Cons flew over too many people's heads to be highly successful, and Radio KAOS suffered from some dodgy ideas coupled with some poor timing as the wall fell and nuclear threats no longer seemed so immediate. Amused to Death is, IMHO, by far his best solo effort, but he exudes a level of anger and complaint that doesn't exactly attract people. Plus, the presentation turns muddy during the last few tracks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2015 at 22:34
Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:

I still think "The Endless River" has been the best Pink Floyd album without Roger Waters, and I'd even put it above "Animals" and "The Wall".
It does seem Roger's writing dried up. "The Pros And Cons of Hitch-hiking" was also demoed around the time he'd demoed The Wall, so that's both late 70's.
"Radio Kaos" had a germ of a good idea but it was let down by no real musical ideas and terrible writing.
"Amused To Death" was a return to form though. But then Roger just... Drifted off. 
I haven't heard his opera, not really an opera person. And although his recent tour of "The Wall" was successful, it's still material from the late 70's. 
I'm hoping when he finally gets around to releasing "Homeland" it'll show there's life beyond "The Wall".

But what Pink Floyd really needed was a manager to point out how well they worked together, and how the band was bigger than the four of them. So that meant Roger winding himself back in a bit and David being a bit more open to ideas.
The fact they didn't rally round and help Rick Wright when he was having problems is quite sad. He deserved better than to be frozen out. 
I'm not expecting Pink Floyd to become all touchy-feely. Frankly, that would be terrifying!
But they could have done more.

Where's a music based Jeremy Kyle series when you need one! Tongue


Well, I believe David did a lot to help out Rick... just perhaps he was a bit late. For some reason he didn't during the time of The Wall (though we don't really know that, do we? We only know that Waters made hell with him and fired him, why Gilmour didn't or couldn't stop it, we don't know), but then he got Wright back on his feet for A Momentary Lapse of Reason. How much of it was for marketing and how much was for friendship, we don't know either, but Gilmour strikes me like a person who does cares for his friends... Rick was actually barely present on Momentary Lapse, as I understand it, but on the tour he did come back, and he was again working nicely for The Division Bell. And even if Wright still had doubts about himself, David did invite him for the semi-acoustic shows he did (releases on David Gilmour on Concert), and then for the tour of On An Island, in which I believe Rick was actually surprised at the reactions the public showed for him. I believe Gilmour had him on tour to help him out (of course, so that Rick would help Gilmour out, too).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2015 at 06:04
I miss the 'music' in Waters' solo output. Too much talk-singing with little or no room for any musical spaces in between. When he broke with Floyd it seems as if there no longer were anyone around to point out the need for him to shut up....if only for a couple of minutes.
I rather dig a couple of tunes off Pros and Cons and Amused to Death, but they're funnily also the ones that open up and let the music breathe.

Loved his recent The Wall tour though, which I caught in Parken, Copenhagen - a stadium notorious for it's awful acoustics. This gig though proved just how wonderful of a sound it's possible to achieve on such a venue. It really set the bar.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2015 at 05:28
Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:

 David being a bit more open to ideas.

Re: The Final Cut.

"If these songs weren't good enough for 'The Wall' why are they good enough now?"

Get off the blow, Gilmour and I don't know, work to make the songs better. Yes, Roger, that means co-crediting other people!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2015 at 05:26
I still think "The Endless River" has been the best Pink Floyd album without Roger Waters, and I'd even put it above "Animals" and "The Wall".
It does seem Roger's writing dried up. "The Pros And Cons of Hitch-hiking" was also demoed around the time he'd demoed The Wall, so that's both late 70's.
"Radio Kaos" had a germ of a good idea but it was let down by no real musical ideas and terrible writing.
"Amused To Death" was a return to form though. But then Roger just... Drifted off. 
I haven't heard his opera, not really an opera person. And although his recent tour of "The Wall" was successful, it's still material from the late 70's. 
I'm hoping when he finally gets around to releasing "Homeland" it'll show there's life beyond "The Wall".

But what Pink Floyd really needed was a manager to point out how well they worked together, and how the band was bigger than the four of them. So that meant Roger winding himself back in a bit and David being a bit more open to ideas.
The fact they didn't rally round and help Rick Wright when he was having problems is quite sad. He deserved better than to be frozen out. 
I'm not expecting Pink Floyd to become all touchy-feely. Frankly, that would be terrifying!
But they could have done more.

Where's a music based Jeremy Kyle series when you need one! Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2015 at 04:11
Originally posted by NutterAlert NutterAlert wrote:

Brand loyalty.
Agree. We'll see if the new Gilmour album will sell as much as The Endless River Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2015 at 02:25
Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I know I am in a minority, but I regard Waters' best work as being post-Floyd, namely Amused To Death.

Waters once said he was involved in only three totally satisfactory albums: Dark Side Of The Moon, The Wall and Amused To Death.

I like the album, but not as much as Dark Side.


Don't most artists consider their most recent work their best?

Also, Waters has been working on new projects like that opera about the French Revolution... has anyone here seen it? I also think he contributed with a song to a film soundtrack.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2015 at 23:49
Amused To Death was as good as anything Floyd put out, but excuse the pun...the sum of all parts meant that even Wright, Gilmour and Mason would not have had massive success either in a solo capacity, I don't think. Waters for me the key ingredient in Floyd. I remember him saying during the KAOS tour he was battling to fill 5000 seats while Floyd playing next door were filling 50-100K stadiums. Brand loyalty as a previous post says. His solo work all three in fact great albums.
 
When you listen to The Final Cut you realize even without Wright how beautiful an album it is. As much as Waters may want to consider it a solo album it is very much the finished article under Pink FloydEvil Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2015 at 22:51
Frankly I have never been a fan of Water's vocals or bass playing....I think they are both very average.
He has come up with some good lyrics and concepts over the Floyd years and that's where he was always the best imo. Floyd was a total group effort musically where the sum of the parts was greater than the whole (similar to the Beatles)  and after they split up it was obvious.
For me they have not aged well and I don't play Floyd often these days, and  Water's solo music has been very uninteresting  to me.


Edited by dr wu23 - June 30 2015 at 22:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2015 at 22:41
I always thought Amused to Death was very well received. And the tours he's done since the late 90's have been very succesful, I believe. However, I do think he needed the equilibrium the other members of Pink Floyd brought to the table, and indeed the sound of both Wright and Gilmour is missing in his solo work.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2015 at 18:21
Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I know I am in a minority, but I regard Waters' best work as being post-Floyd, namely Amused To Death.

Waters once said he was involved in only three totally satisfactory albums: Dark Side Of The Moon, The Wall and Amused To Death.

I like the album, but not as much as Dark Side.


I confess I'm a Wish You Were Hereist. Dark Side is a fabulous album sonically but it was never a real favourite of mine. Quite like Amused but for mine it needs to sit beside the other two as something of an addenda if it is to be considered one of his or PF's best.

Then again I quite liked Division Bell and Final Cut. OK, they don't really say anything new but I still enjoy(ed) them. Not, and this is simply my probably worthless opinion only, as unimportant as e.g. the last few Genesis albums.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2015 at 17:58
In their ability to recreate Floyd both past and present post Floyd was still a great band live. Sadly for me, i've never seen Waters solo live but going by his DVDs it would be a treat.

Recorded output is a bit hit and miss for me but really how many old farts are still producing the goods ? At least goods that are as innovative as their youthful output. Some yes but most seem to get all pop schmaltzy on us or settle for technique (not necessarily a bad thing) rather than new ideas. Hell, it cannot be easy to be bustling in the hedgerow when you are in your 70s.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2015 at 15:29
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

And as for the albums produced by Pink Floyd after Water's departure, they were no longer biting concept pieces with brilliant lyrics. Why were they still so popular and sold in the millions?

Because the band name has the magic. PF post-Waters tried to revive the sonic adventures of their 1970's albums and the visual tricks from the live shows (flying pig, flying bed above the stadium which ignites fireworks once reaching the stage, the biggest lightshow ever etc. Baffling shows! I've been there. But Floyd was not necessarily a good band post-Waters. But they knew what the audience wanted.


Edited by Moogtron III - June 30 2015 at 15:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2015 at 15:23
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I know I am in a minority, but I regard Waters' best work as being post-Floyd, namely Amused To Death.

Waters once said he was involved in only three totally satisfactory albums: Dark Side Of The Moon, The Wall and Amused To Death.

I like the album, but not as much as Dark Side.
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