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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2015 at 03:49
No worries Steve. I tend to forget where I post, so I probably have a fair few posts scattered around PA that I haven't responded to
Thanks for the heads up though. Seems like the 'Krautrock' moniker often stands for German bands instead of a distinct style, which core is comprised of freeform, motorik grooves, electronic experiments and a touch of the avantguarde.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2015 at 06:43
About the book: how does it compare to Julian Cope's Krautrocksampler (that I don't recommend), to Nikos Kotsopoulos' Krautrock: Cosmic Rock and Its Legacy or other books (I would quote Eric Deshayes' Au-dela du Rock, but I'm not sure non-French speaking people are aware of this book)?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2015 at 09:32
^As I've read neither, I will pass this question on to my grandson who is the family expert (fanatic?) on Krautrock and will got back to you. He's the one who lent me the posted book in the first place.
 
In truth, I attempted to read Cope's book once but quickly lost interest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2015 at 10:15
Hi,
 
You can get a feel for Julian Cope's on his website and on the Inet ... and honestly, if I had to go by his comments, I probably would never have bothered. They are nothing but a stoned kid talking aobut what he thought was real stoney music.
 
In fact, a lot of this music has less drugs than any other scene anywhere! Some of it had it, but then it's like saying that SF did not have the pscyh's, NY didn't have the heroin, and London did not have ... whatever ... and so on. They all did ... but the question and end result is ... what came out of it? And in most cases, it was all killed due to the drug abuse, because the music was not "bigger" or "better" or "artistically motivated".
 
I have more respect for my generation, than just the fact that so many of them were nothing but dopers! And there were a lot of us that were not dopers ... we didn't need to be! And we still "got it"!


Edited by moshkito - March 16 2015 at 10:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2015 at 11:41
Never liked the term, then I've always felt that Kosmische Musik is an inadequate descriptor too, and Teutonic has prior connotations which makes it just as inappropriate in some ways. Fortunately we've all grown up since the 1970s and many (admittedly non-Prog) bands have emerged from Germany that have not been tagged with what is essentially a derogatory handle. 



As alternative reading, there is always this book: Music Culture and "Kosmische" Rock by Philippe Blanche.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2015 at 09:36
The term Krautrock and what it refers to and how people feel about it and react to it, has evolved over the years, as people in this thread have pointed out. I think today, the term can be used with a straight face, but I can still understand the negative connotations the term has evoked in the past. And even the term "teutonic" doesn't have the same "bite" as it once did. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2015 at 04:42
[QUOTE=Dean]Never liked the term, then I've always felt that Kosmische Musik is an inadequate descriptor too, and Teutonic has prior connotations which makes it just as inappropriate in some ways. Fortunately we've all grown up since the 1970s and many (admittedly non-Prog) bands have emerged from Germany that have not been tagged with what is essentially a derogatory handle. 

Thank you Dean, for reinforcing what I've viewed over the years:  that German artists of the period HATE the term.  Again, I mention that it was a marketing/importer tag.  How many of us had those red & white labels (there were other colours) affixed to the plastic sleeves of Jane, Eloy, Atlantis, Frumpy, etc. informing the "unenlightened" we were purchasing KRAUT ROCK?  On radio in the '70s, I let the music speak for itself, only saying "from Germany, the latest from Embryo" and so forth for every country. 
 
I wonder if any western listener would call a German "Kraut" in person and expect to find they made a new friend.
 
Also I can't recall any DJs in Munich introducing the latest from Van Halen as Yankrock.  Smile
 
luv...


 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2015 at 07:03
Originally posted by Guy Guden Guy Guden wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Never liked the term, then I've always felt that Kosmische Musik is an inadequate descriptor too, and Teutonic has prior connotations which makes it just as inappropriate in some ways. Fortunately we've all grown up since the 1970s and many (admittedly non-Prog) bands have emerged from Germany that have not been tagged with what is essentially a derogatory handle.

Thank you Dean, for reinforcing what I've viewed over the years:  that German artists of the period HATE the term.  Again, I mention that it was a marketing/importer tag.  How many of us had those red & white labels (there were other colours) affixed to the plastic sleeves of Jane, Eloy, Atlantis, Frumpy, etc. informing the "unenlightened" we were purchasing KRAUT ROCK?  On radio in the '70s, I let the music speak for itself, only saying "from Germany, the latest from Embryo" and so forth for every country. 
 
I wonder if any western listener would call a German "Kraut" in person and expect to find they made a new friend.
 
Also I can't recall any DJs in Munich introducing the latest from Van Halen as Yankrock.  Smile
 
luv...


 
Stereotype name-calling amuses me more than it offends as it often says more about the name-caller than it does the culture, race or nationality being slurred. I take the same view when people call me names or launch themselves into an ad hominem diatribe against me - any upset or anger I show is more a reflection of my disappointment than anything else. [We Brits rarely take offence at any pejoratives used against them: Limey, Tommy, Pomme, Les rosbifs, Les goddams and Les fu*koffs is usually met with amusement and perhaps a little self-pride; not even "La perfide Albion" (perfidious Albion) will have us running back home in floods of tears.] One issue I have with re-appropriation of derogatory terms, (and that goes for Nerds, Trehuggers and Gingers too), is when they get all bent out of shape when others use those terms with the same familiarity as they do - if the once-derogatory term has been re-appropriated then it has to be acceptable for all, or not used at all.

"Kraut" is a French term that was adopted first by the American soldiers of WWI (the Brits preferred Fritz or Jerry in response to the German soldiers calling them Tommy). That, along with "bosche", was a ethnic slur by the French to their neighbours in Southern Germany relating to cabbages and sauerkraut. There is no doubt that it is a pejorative term, how offensive it is only a German can answer, but it was originally used with offensive intent.

It is possible that the term "krautrock" is not wholly connected with the pejorative "kraut" but derived in part from Amon Düül's 1969 album Psychedelic Underground and specifically "Mama Düül und ihre Sauerkrautband spielt auf" ... a title that appears to be a play on "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band". I also struggle to credit the British music press with the wit to come up with the name themselves, I think a better culprit is John Ravenscroft "Peel" for two reasons: one, he latched onto the emergent German underground music scene before the music press and was certainly aware of Amon Düül and two, he was an ex-Public School boy and that kind of childish name-calling is indicative of the type and level of humour in the public school system.

The biggest problem I have with "krautrock" as a genre name is not its pejorative derogatory origins, but its lack of suitability as a name. It's an inappropriate catch-all that doesn't catch-all, the music that we regard as "krautrock" is not a distinct style of music, nor does it have meaningful geographic associations. Each region had its own underground music scene, with a unique sound, style and approach. The bands from Berlin, Köln, München, Düsseldorf were unrelated and essentially disconnected from each other. It wasn't all Kosmische Musik or all Motorik, not every band played synthesisers, not every band was influenced by musique concrete and Karlhienz Stockhausen. It is little wonder that occasionally Triumvirat, Nectar and Eloy get lazily lumped under this lazy umbrella banner.



Edited by Dean - March 18 2015 at 07:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 04:12
I agree with your overview completely Dean.
 
I wasn't aware that it was possibly Mr. Peel who first used the term.  Are there recordings from the '70s where he introduced bands as such?  Again, from my perspective as an import record buyer, the term first appeared on sleeve labels from the marketers.
 
The Amon Duul song is a possible good source, as you mention, probably more for Mr. Peel than the importers, who probably never read the titles.  AD2 were aware of the geographical stereotype, as later songs like "Mr. Kraut's Jinx" shows.  The band always had a strong perspective on history and Germany's Western migrations.
 
I agree with the failure of the term.  I have always hated labels.  When I was explaining to the powers in control of commercial radio in 1973 what I wanted to do with SPACE PIRATE RADIO, they were lost.  I could
only describe it to them as an "import music" show featuring experimental, electronic and unusual music from foreign countries.  Progressive and Art Rock were terms that tended to surface after I had already gotten the show on the air.  This had only been an extension of my previous radio experience in 1968 when I did a show called "British Underground," where I played the import albums that had 14 cuts as opposed to the American releases which had 10.
 
You are correct about the different schools of music coming out of Germany by geographical location.  I did my best on air to point out that what was coming out of Munchen, was different than Berlin, Dusseldorf or Koln.  Playing something like Floh de Cologne, primarily spoken,... against Kraftwerk, Kluster or Kraan, helped highlight how Amon Duul from the South, was different than Tangerine Dream from the North and these cats from the West.
 
Again, my thanks for your perspective.  I dislike labels and pigeon holing.  I cringed when Manuel Gottsching's "New Age of Earth" down the line, inspired some account executive to come up with New Age Music. 
 
The whole intention of my tenure on SPACE PIRATE RADIO was to let the music speak for itself.  And to let the listener interpret the experience for themselves.  Not for me, or some market driven entrepreneur, to
downsize it into a saleable commodity.
 
Cheers and Good Health! Smile 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 04:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2015 at 10:29
We have all stated that the term is derogatory or at least unpleasant, but what name German 'star' has taken issue with it is the real question to this non ending discussion. Signed, trying to retire.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2015 at 11:13
Good. Now that we have determined that the term "kraut" was a derogatory word against Germans and, from a musical point of view, it was rather misguided, can someone talk about the book?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2015 at 15:18
^Yes. No one interviewed in the book, including members of TD, Kraftwerk to Neu! and Faust, had an issue with the term Krautrock. ClownWink

Edited by SteveG - March 20 2015 at 15:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2015 at 20:42
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Yes. No one interviewed in the book, including members of TD, Kraftwerk to Neu! and Faust, had an issue with the term Krautrock. ClownWink
Brief mention of the term occurs in the BBC documentary that Pedro alluded to (Krautrock: The Rebirth of Germany) where three or four musicians give their views which can be sumarised as: like, dislike and "I don't make krautrock music"

I think there is another documentary where Edgar Froese objects to the term, but I may have imagined that as I cannot find a clip.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2015 at 10:28
^Yes, I'm sure the book was edited so that the interviewees did not trash the book's title. However, I still feel there is a lack of strong protest against the term. I would like to see it, if it exists, as it might put the term Krautrock finally to rest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2015 at 12:10
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Yes, I'm sure the book was edited so that the interviewees did not trash the book's title. However, I still feel there is a lack of strong protest against the term. I would like to see it, if it exists, as it might put the term Krautrock finally to rest.
 
I'll reword the stuff on my website ... and I agree. doing my best to not use the term again!
 
But we have an issue here ... and it is the same as the "progressive" thing and definition ... we don't have another way to refer to it, although "kosmiche" would not exactly be correct in at least half the works, and in the others, someone will quickly point out that drugs have nothing to do with "cosmic" or anything else!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2015 at 17:26
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Yes, I'm sure the book was edited so that the interviewees did not trash the book's title. However, I still feel there is a lack of strong protest against the term. I would like to see it, if it exists, as it might put the term Krautrock finally to rest.
 
I'll reword the stuff on my website ... and I agree. doing my best to not use the term again!
 
But we have an issue here ... and it is the same as the "progressive" thing and definition ... we don't have another way to refer to it, although "kosmiche" would not exactly be correct in at least half the works, and in the others, someone will quickly point out that drugs have nothing to do with "cosmic" or anything else!
It's nothing like the "progressive" thing and definition - that appears to be only a problem to you. We have lots of ways of referring to "Progressive Rock" and we do that by breaking it down into smaller subgenres. If something does not fit into those subgenres then it is the wrong kind of progressive and we discard it. This does not mean that the discarded artist is unworthy or substandard it just means it's not the kind of progressive we're looking for. 

Back in the day there were lots of different bands that could be called "underground" and there were lots of different kinds of bands that were "freaky" and lots of different bands that were "arty" (to be forever confused with "art rock") and lots of different bands were being all "avant garde", and all of them were "progressive". As we all know, back then some of those bands got tagged as "Progressive Rock", and that predominately referred to a kind of "progressive" music that was coming out of Europe in the early part of the 1970s, namely Great Britain, The Netherlands, Italy, France, Germany and the Scandinavian countries - this is not to say that Progressive Rock wasn't being created in other countries at that time, of course it was, and much of it inspired by music coming out of those previously mentioned countries. 

So - some of those "underground" "freaky" "arty" and "avant garde" bands were Progressive Rock and some were not, yet all of them were being all nice and "progressive" and "forward thinking" and "experimental" and perhaps even a little "avant gardy". A bit of a bugger that. How do you tell one from the other? What a to do. Except that it isn't an issue because we have all those pesky little subgenres. Now we can make accurately vague definitions for the subgenres and not have to worry our pretty little heads about inventing some all encompassing vaguely inaccurate definition for "Progressive Rock".

The daft thing (and this is the really insanely stupidly unbelievably idiotically daft thing), is this actually works. And it has been working for far longer than the 11 year existence of this site. It works so effectively that most people coming to this website for the first time instantly get it, like it actually makes sense. Of course there are a few recalcitrant types who will complain bitterly that the system does not work because their pet "underground" "freaky" "arty" "avant garde" band is not listed here ... (oh let's say "Grateful Dead" or "Stratovarious" just for snit and giggles) ... and it is quite amusing to see the contorted shapes they can throw when they get their panties in a wad over it ... but those are the exceptions that prove the rule exists and the rule is working just fine.

The problem with delineating bands by geographical boundaries is music has no truck with such arbitrary lines on a map. We don't classify bands out of The Netherlands as Dutch Prog or British bands as Anglo Prog. Yes I know we do classify *some*, (but not all), Italian bands as RPI, and some ill-informed people would point to Canterbury Scene as a geographical classification [clue: it's not]; there has also been a small push to have "Rock Andalúz" recognised as a subgenre, but that creates more problems than it solves.

Now, before we get too carried away (and I assure you this post is going to get very carried away), I think avoiding the term "Krautrock" is not the answer - the phrase "political correctness gone mad" is often applied incorrectly, but this would not be one of those times. As Steve says [paraphrasing], the artists themselves have not issued a public statement denouncing the term. The term has existed for forty years and is one of the oldest named subgenres listed on this site. 

So one solution is to take the subgenre (and its definition) and simply chuck it out the window. Whoosh! and problem is solved. We'll keep the artists of course, we're just throwing out the dirty bathwater - only an idiot would neglect to remove the baby first.

This is not quite the act of unadulterated vandalism it first seems. We have already established in this thread and by reading books, watching TV documentaries, and through a fu*k-load of received wisdom that:

i) this term was a lazy categorising by music press journalists and album importers and distributors
ii) there isn't a cohesive style of music played by all band that fall under the banner
ii.a) not all bands played Kosmische Musik
ii.b) not all bands were avant garde
ii.c) not all bands were electronic
ii.d) they didn't all belong to the same scene or movement
ii.e) they had nothing in common
ii.f) they didn't have common influences or goals 
ii.g) they weren't all druggies.
iii) not all those bands come from Germany (only 69.14% are of German origin)
iv) not all German bands are called "Krautrock"

Some of those bands can be recategorised under existing subgenres that are more meaningfully descriptive of the kind of "Progressive Rock" they play, just as Zeuhl could be recategorised under RIO/Avant and Indo/Raga could be recategorised under Prog Folk. 

Whatever remains after that then has to be put somewhere, and that could be a new subgenre that is a more suitable home for those hard-to-place artists. That could be Kosmische Musik, though it raises the question of how different is that from Psychedelic Prog/Space Rock? Would it be so wrong to put Amon Düül II into Psych/Space alongside Floyd, Hawkwind and [Mother] Gong? (Once we start moving bands out of Krautrock and into Pscyh/Space then Gong being left under Canterbury just because Daevid Allen was in Soft Machine doesn't seem to be that sensible or accurate.)

There is of course precedent for actually doing this: seven years ago we took a look at the mess that was Art Rock and divided it into three more meaningful subgenres (technically it's four, with the fourth being all art rock that is not Progressive Rock... or Art Rock for short); and five years ago we took a look at the mess that was Progressive Metal and divided it into three more meaningful subgenres. The names we give these genres, subgenres and sub-subgenres is essentially irrelevant, they are just flags of convenience that we use so we all know what we're talking about. It matters not one iota that these invented subgenre names are not recognised outside the rarefied atmosphere of the Progressive Archives, that too is irrelevant, their vernacular meaning in the PA is all that matters. Genre names are nothing more than a short-hand notation that allows us to communicate with each other - the music of King Crimson does not change when we call it by a different name, the music of Procol Harum and The Moody Blues didn't magically become more progressive when they were moved out of Proto-Prog.

Now, assuming that you've read this far and understood at least the gist of what I have written, let's not go all nuclear on my arse. I am not for one minute suggesting that we actually do this. I'm not even suggesting this is a good idea. I'm just pointing out a possible alternative. The problem with any solution, even a renaming, is forty-five years of history, and that is something that we cannot just ignore because the name that someone gave an unrelated bunch of bands is uncomfortable to some or is an inadequate descriptor for some others. 



Edited by Dean - March 22 2015 at 17:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2015 at 17:37
^I'm sorry I played devil's advocate on this Dean, but I really don't think that Krautrock is terribly offensive to a lot of people. But even if one person feels any discomfort by it, then terminating the term should not be dismissed out of hand.
We've all high jacked this thread long enough.
 
Let's leave it and Pedro in peace.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2015 at 11:36
Hi,
 
Being a foreigner in two countries (Portuguese kid in Brazil and then foreign kid in America!), I can relate to the term, only because in high school, junior college and university, the terms were applied liberally, and it wasn't because I had a 20ft union jack on my head or ass!
 
Even Guy made fun of it, but he made fun of all of us, and it was OK for me, but inside, sometimes it didn't help one feel a whole lot better, until one of his characters went out to discover new lands and claim the land for _______ and raise the flag __________ and then let's break open the Mateus ... which made it a bit more fun for me.
 
Trust me, being called a spic in LA or Santa Barbara (last time in 2010 and I had a Univision for the soccer games!) at Safeway on Fairview Blvd.
 
One hopes that these things get better, but it seems they don't!
 
I would rather call it the German Music and its various scenes, and will re-touch all my writing on it on the website.
 


Edited by moshkito - March 29 2015 at 11:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2015 at 11:54
Some really interesting thoughts on the term Krautrock here. I will admit to be very surprised that Krautrock was actually a term that was used to describe German underground music when I first got into Prog. To me it was an insulting term at the time towards Germans so it took me quite a long time to get used to writing this title and I didn't see anyone protesting the term. Like Mosh I could go back and change it to Kosmische or something else which would take a lot of work but i'm thinking about it, not saying i'll do it but...
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