This is a thought provoking work as well as being scholarly and well researched. I simply cannot recommend this book enough to both casual and serious fans of German electronic music. 5/5 stars. 

 

Otherwise PFM, Banco and Le Orme should be Woprock, Yellow Magic Orchestra and Acid Mothers Temple Niprock, all British bands Limeyrock or Limerock for 2 sylla ballet dancers, etc. etc.

 

:)X.

 

Shhhhhhhhhhh Guy ... psssssstttt ..... if you mention a country here on PA, they will immediately say it's not "progressive". If you use a nickname, they will discuss it as "progressive".  Shhhhhh!!!!! Funny, I never called Herzog, Weiss, Wenders or Handke ... krautfilm ... either! or krauttheater! Or Banco and Ange will never be progressive because they don't use "english"!

I have many albums by several 70s German bands and list them regularly on 

the what are you listening to thread. I've never used the name in the comments

I post with the album cover.

 

But it wasn't up to me.

 

 

 

And for the record, PA designates this genre as K****rock.

I hear what you're saying, you didn't make up the name.  

I see it used all over the music related sites on the internet and I have no real problem with

it, I just never got into the habit of using it.

Then again, if you're from an older generation I can see how this issue can be somewhat disrespectful. I remember talking to my dad about an area of town we lived in when I was a small kid. The newspapers called it a 'ghetto' as most other folks visiting the place would. My dad got furious because he knows the word from WWII - not having a clue as to how the word has evolved over time.

Krautrock may have started out as a derogatory term, but it has since then turned into quite the opposite.

SteveG wrote 

This is a thought provoking work as well as being scholarly and well researched. I simply cannot recommend this book enough to both casual and serious fans of German electronic music. 5/5 stars. 

I guess we got off on a name thing.

Back to the book. Is it specifically about electronic music or does it discuss other styles like Birth Control, Gift,

Guru Guru, etc?

importers slapping those "Krautrock" labels on the records.  You may be right about the Old School feeling,

however.  It is a term, based on a WW2 stereotype, of a defeated, inferior enemy nation.  Unfair to many.

 

Like Werner Herzog said, "We are a nation without Fathers.  Only Grandfathers."

 

So put away those labels for Ange and Magma and Heldon that say Frogrock.  :)X.

 

I respect your feelings on this matter, but I doubt that any who loves German electronic rock would use the term Krautrock  with any malicious intent. Should the term it be avoided if possible? I think so, but the part about it being possible will be very difficult until the term becomes outdated in worldwide media sites, books, magazines and other publications.

Heck, if anything, there seems to be a lot of upcoming bands who think of 'Krautrock' as a badge of honour (just like many on here think of 'Prog', which is rather futile). There are soooo many bands (pop, rock and even those new tricky Folktronica outfits) who employ the motorik groove of yesteryear, slap on some cold 70s synths and wham bam thank you mam: you've got some Krautrock! (or so they think)

Yeah....not really....but it is a highly sought out sticker, which then becomes just a sticker.....and that is definitely not what the music is and was about. 

 

Now, let's get back to this wonderful book!

 

And Edgar Froese said something similar on that BBC special.

 

In truth, I attempted to read Cope's book once but quickly lost interest.

 

You can get a feel for Julian Cope's on his website and on the Inet ... and honestly, if I had to go by his comments, I probably would never have bothered. They are nothing but a stoned kid talking aobut what he thought was real stoney music.

 

In fact, a lot of this music has less drugs than any other scene anywhere! Some of it had it, but then it's like saying that SF did not have the pscyh's, NY didn't have the heroin, and London did not have ... whatever ... and so on. They all did ... but the question and end result is ... what came out of it? And in most cases, it was all killed due to the drug abuse, because the music was not "bigger" or "better" or "artistically motivated".

 

I have more respect for my generation, than just the fact that so many of them were nothing but dopers! And there were a lot of us that were not dopers ... we didn't need to be! And we still "got it"!

As alternative reading, there is always this book: http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/music-culture-and-%C2%AB-kosmische-%C2%BB-rock/5053167" rel="nofollow - Music Culture and "Kosmische" Rock by Philippe Blanche .

Thank you Dean, for reinforcing what I've viewed over the years:  that German artists of the period HATE the term.  Again, I mention that it was a marketing/importer tag.  How many of us had those red & white labels (there were other colours) affixed to the plastic sleeves of Jane, Eloy, Atlantis, Frumpy, etc. informing the "unenlightened" we were purchasing KRAUT ROCK?  On radio in the '70s, I let the music speak for itself, only saying "from Germany, the latest from Embryo" and so forth for every country. 

 

I wonder if any western listener would call a German "Kraut" in person and expect to find they made a new friend.

 

Also I can't recall any DJs in Munich introducing the latest from Van Halen as Yankrock. 

 

luv...

 

Stereotype name-calling amuses me more than it offends as it often says more about the name-caller than it does the culture, race or nationality being slurred. I take the same view when people call me names or launch themselves into an ad hominem diatribe against me - any upset or anger I show is more a reflection of my disappointment than anything else. [We Brits rarely take offence at any pejoratives used against them: Limey, Tommy, Pomme, Les rosbifs, Les goddams and Les fu*koffs is usually met with amusement and perhaps a little self-pride; not even "La perfide Albion" (perfidious Albion) will have us running back home in floods of tears.] One issue I have with re-appropriation of derogatory terms, (and that goes for Nerds, Trehuggers and Gingers too), is when they get all bent out of shape when others use those terms with the same familiarity as they do - if the once-derogatory term has been re-appropriated then it has to be acceptable for all, or not used at all.

It is possible that the term "krautrock" is not wholly connected with the pejorative "kraut" but derived in part from Amon Düül's 1969 album Psychedelic Underground and specifically "Mama Düül und ihre Sauerkrautband spielt auf" ... a title that appears to be a play on "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band". I also struggle to credit the British music press with the wit to come up with the name themselves, I think a better culprit is John Ravenscroft "Peel" for two reasons: one, he latched onto the emergent German underground music scene before the music press and was certainly aware of Amon Düül and two, he was an ex-Public School boy and that kind of childish name-calling is indicative of the type and level of humour in the public school system.

The biggest problem I have with "krautrock" as a genre name is not its pejorative derogatory origins, but its lack of suitability as a name. It's an inappropriate catch-all that doesn't catch-all, the music that we regard as "krautrock" is not a distinct style of music, nor does it have meaningful geographic associations. Each region had its own underground music scene, with a unique sound, style and approach. The bands from Berlin, Köln, München, Düsseldorf were unrelated and essentially disconnected from each other. It wasn't all Kosmische Musik or all Motorik, not every band played synthesisers, not every band was influenced by musique concrete and Karlhienz Stockhausen. It is little wonder that occasionally Triumvirat, Nectar and Eloy get lazily lumped under this lazy umbrella banner.

 

I wasn't aware that it was possibly Mr. Peel who first used the term.  Are there recordings from the '70s where he introduced bands as such?  Again, from my perspective as an import record buyer, the term first appeared on sleeve labels from the marketers.

 

The Amon Duul song is a possible good source, as you mention, probably more for Mr. Peel than the importers, who probably never read the titles.  AD2 were aware of the geographical stereotype, as later songs like "Mr. Kraut's Jinx" shows.  The band always had a strong perspective on history and Germany's Western migrations.

 

I agree with the failure of the term.  I have always hated labels.  When I was explaining to the powers in control of commercial radio in 1973 what I wanted to do with SPACE PIRATE RADIO, they were lost.  I could

only describe it to them as an "import music" show featuring experimental, electronic and unusual music from foreign countries.  Progressive and Art Rock were terms that tended to surface after I had already gotten the show on the air.  This had only been an extension of my previous radio experience in 1968 when I did a show called "British Underground," where I played the import albums that had 14 cuts as opposed to the American releases which had 10.

 

You are correct about the different schools of music coming out of Germany by geographical location.  I did my best on air to point out that what was coming out of Munchen, was different than Berlin, Dusseldorf or Koln.  Playing something like Floh de Cologne, primarily spoken,... against Kraftwerk, Kluster or Kraan, helped highlight how Amon Duul from the South, was different than Tangerine Dream from the North and these cats from the West.

 

Again, my thanks for your perspective.  I dislike labels and pigeon holing.  I cringed when Manuel Gottsching's "New Age of Earth" down the line, inspired some account executive to come up with New Age Music. 

 

The whole intention of my tenure on SPACE PIRATE RADIO was to let the music speak for itself.  And to let the listener interpret the experience for themselves.  Not for me, or some market driven entrepreneur, to

downsize it into a saleable commodity.

 

Cheers and Good Health!  

 

 

I'll reword the stuff on my website ... and I agree. doing my best to not use the term again!

 

But we have an issue here ... and it is the same as the "progressive" thing and definition ... we don't have another way to refer to it, although "kosmiche" would not exactly be correct in at least half the works, and in the others, someone will quickly point out that drugs have nothing to do with "cosmic" or anything else!

It's nothing like the "progressive" thing and definition - that appears to be only a problem to you. We have lots of ways of referring to "Progressive Rock" and we do that by breaking it down into smaller subgenres. If something does not fit into those subgenres then it is the wrong kind of progressive and we discard it. This does not mean that the discarded artist is unworthy or substandard it just means it's not the kind of progressive we're looking for. 

Back in the day there were lots of different bands that could be called "underground" and there were lots of different kinds of bands that were "freaky" and lots of different bands that were "arty" (to be forever confused with "art rock") and lots of different bands were being all "avant garde", and all of them were "progressive". As we all know, back then some of those bands got tagged as "Progressive Rock", and that predominately referred to a kind of "progressive" music that was coming out of Europe in the early part of the 1970s, namely Great Britain, The Netherlands, Italy, France, Germany and the Scandinavian countries - this is not to say that Progressive Rock wasn't being created in other countries at that time, of course it was, and much of it inspired by music coming out of those previously mentioned countries. 

So - some of those "underground" "freaky" "arty" and "avant garde" bands were Progressive Rock and some were not, yet all of them were being all nice and "progressive" and "forward thinking" and "experimental" and perhaps even a little "avant gardy". A bit of a bugger that. How do you tell one from the other? What a to do. Except that it isn't an issue because we have all those pesky little subgenres. Now we can make accurately vague definitions for the subgenres and not have to worry our pretty little heads about inventing some all encompassing vaguely inaccurate definition for "Progressive Rock".

The daft thing (and this is the really insanely stupidly unbelievably idiotically daft thing), is this actually works. And it has been working for far longer than the 11 year existence of this site. It works so effectively that most people coming to this website for the first time instantly get it, like it actually makes sense. Of course there are a few recalcitrant types who will complain bitterly that the system does not work because their pet "underground" "freaky" "arty" "avant garde" band is not listed here ... (oh let's say "Grateful Dead" or "Stratovarious" just for snit and giggles) ... and it is quite amusing to see the contorted shapes they can throw when they get their panties in a wad over it ... but those are the exceptions that prove the rule exists and the rule is working just fine.

So one solution is to take the subgenre (and its definition) and simply chuck it out the window. Whoosh! and problem is solved. We'll keep the artists of course, we're just throwing out the dirty bathwater - only an idiot would neglect to remove the baby first.

This is not quite the act of unadulterated vandalism it first seems. We have already established in this thread and by reading books, watching TV documentaries, and through a fu*k-load of received wisdom that:

Some of those bands can be recategorised under existing subgenres that are more meaningfully descriptive of the kind of "Progressive Rock" they play, just as Zeuhl could be recategorised under RIO/Avant and Indo/Raga could be recategorised under Prog Folk. 

Whatever remains after that then has to be put somewhere, and that could be a new subgenre that is a more suitable home for those hard-to-place artists. That could be Kosmische Musik, though it raises the question of how different is that from Psychedelic Prog/Space Rock? Would it be so wrong to put Amon Düül II into Psych/Space alongside Floyd, Hawkwind and [Mother] Gong? (Once we start moving bands out of Krautrock and into Pscyh/Space then Gong being left under Canterbury just because Daevid Allen was in Soft Machine doesn't seem to be that sensible or accurate.)

Now, assuming that you've read this far and understood at least the gist of what I have written, let's not go all nuclear on my arse. I am not for one minute suggesting that we actually do this. I'm not even suggesting this is a good idea. I'm just pointing out a possible alternative. The problem with any solution, even a renaming, is forty-five years of history, and that is something that we cannot just ignore because the name that someone gave an unrelated bunch of bands is uncomfortable to some or is an inadequate descriptor for some others. 

 

Let's leave it and Pedro in peace.

 

Being a foreigner in two countries (Portuguese kid in Brazil and then foreign kid in America!), I can relate to the term, only because in high school, junior college and university, the terms were applied liberally, and it wasn't because I had a 20ft union jack on my head or ass!

 

Even Guy made fun of it, but he made fun of all of us, and it was OK for me, but inside, sometimes it didn't help one feel a whole lot better, until one of his characters went out to discover new lands and claim the land for _______ and raise the flag __________ and then let's break open the Mateus ... which made it a bit more fun for me.

 

Trust me, being called a spic in LA or Santa Barbara (last time in 2010 and I had a Univision for the soccer games!) at Safeway on Fairview Blvd.

 

One hopes that these things get better, but it seems they don't!

 

I would rather call it the German Music and its various scenes, and will re-touch all my writing on it on the website.

 

The German fans I've met in real life, also the old ones, have never once uttered anything substantially negative about 'Krautrock'. 

I do respect the previous posters for their decisions though

'....a rose by any other name would smell as sweet' 

 

Three times I have gone to get this ... and three times I walked away without it!

 

I do not like the title at all!

 

And I do not want to read a book that comes off like Peter Michael Hamel's book From Music to the Self ... which got boring with the commentary about every band in the world being a total stink! Heck, most of the world was built out of stink, and then some ... after wars and what not!