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richardh 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 29590
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 Posted: March 16 2015 at 09:59 |
To my ears Moon is the best I've heard in rock (and that includes prog) but no one else I've heard comes close to Buddy Rich. Carl Palmer ( a prodigiously talented drummer) could do a pale imitation but that's all. I might have an opinion about the drummer in Can if I could actually listen to them! Peart is a nicely balanced drummer style wise and could do most anything most other drummers could do. That makes him what he is but not an originator as others have suggested.
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Rednight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 18 2014
Location: Mar Vista, CA
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Points: 4812
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Posted: March 16 2015 at 10:26 |
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Bruford and Collins would be too "light". - HarbouringTheSoul
[/QUOTE]
"That's a bunch of bull!" - Tommy Lasorda
Edited by Rednight - March 16 2015 at 10:29
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
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Posted: March 16 2015 at 11:01 |
It's the Dane in me that spawns brilliance - the rest is merely there to stink up the house. (Thanks)
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2839
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 12:11 |
Ahh well.... I think the problem with this post is that most people reading this can't differentiate a drag roll from a flam from a paradiddle. I think most people who aren't drummers would say, well, sorry, in that case, what is your opinion really worth ?
And this is the problem with evaluating music. Musicians hear music in one way, non musicians hear music in another. If a musician says, listen to the timing on the ride, he's playing accented triplets, timing is out. General public, who can't actually clap in time, then say "that's so elitist".
So really, how do you actually measure music - an art form - or predict how modern ears will interpret "70's prog drumming", a lot of which is more jazz influenced ? A strange post.
Oh yeah. Probably getting an electronic drum kit myself. Alesis DM10 X Mesh is top of the shopping list. ;-)
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Rednight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 18 2014
Location: Mar Vista, CA
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Points: 4812
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 16:03 |
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Well, look at you!
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Jake Night
Forum Newbie
Joined: January 29 2015
Location: Conneticut USA
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Points: 8
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 22:36 |
 Davesax1965 wrote:
And this is the problem with evaluating music. Musicians hear music in one way, non musicians hear music in another. If a musician says, listen to the timing on the ride, he's playing accented triplets, timing is out. General public, who can't actually clap in time, then say "that's so elitist".
So really, how do you actually measure music - an art form - or predict how modern ears will interpret "70's prog drumming", a lot of which is more jazz influenced ? A strange post. |
Ignorance is bliss Modern ears are typically younger folk who simply don't know any better. No doubt the bar was raised very high in the 60's 70's. They didn't grow up then. The parents didn't teach them. Their friends at school are moved by the influences of metal, rap, hip hop and techno. There are some knowledgeable youth, but they are very rare, and not enough in numbers to influence their peers.
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Jake Night
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Joined: January 29 2015
Location: Conneticut USA
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 22:40 |
Gerinski wrote:
[QUOTE=King Only]On many modern productions you are not hearing the actual sounds of the drum kit. You are hearing samples that are placed there by the studio engineer, using digital audio software (for example Pro Tools). All the original drum sounds are removed and replaced with 'perfect' samples to create 'consistency'. The engineer will often also 'correct' slight timing errors. Sometimes these things are done without the knowledge of the drummer or the band.I sometimes work in recording studios and I have seen engineers do this, sometimes they have replaced EVERY SINGLE SOUND, i.e absolutely none of the original recording of the drums were used in the finished recording.
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Not sure what is worse. The fact crap like this exists or the fact that "musicians actually use it.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: March 18 2015 at 04:00 |
I use it. Because I can't find a decent drummer around here. They're all dead. ;-)
This is why I'm buying my own kit........ yes, it'll play samples, but there is a lot of built in articulation, should be for the price !!!! I'd prefer an acoustic kit, but have to think of the neighbours (and cost) - this will be expensive enough.
Why are there so few good modern drummers around ? Because it takes thousands of hours of practice to become a good musician. Since the mid 1970's and the rise of punk, the idea is that anyone can play. Anyone can become famous, talent or musicianship is unnecessary. The standard of musicianship - general musicianship - has dropped through the floor. And the listening public can't distinguish good from bad, and don't generally care.
I will get some replies telling me how good modern musicians are - from non musicians - yes, there are a few good ones. It's not like the early 70's, when there were lots of good ones. Go in any music shop now and you'll hear teenage wannabes playing stuff they've learnt by rote. They haven't done the work or paid the dues.
Unfortunately, if you want to do something properly, you have to do it yourself or be very lucky in finding decent musicians nowadays. Few and far between.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: March 18 2015 at 04:03 |
Rednight wrote:
Well, look at you! |
Yep, there y'go, if example were needed. :-)
Rednight, if you're a musician, your point is ? - and if you're not a musician, your opinion is worth $0 to someone who is. How elitist of me. :-)
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: March 18 2015 at 04:06 |
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PS Gerinski is right about trad vs matched grip and ghosting. There are a lot of bad drummers around. And a lot of "good" drummers who are actually dreadful in comparison to the masters of old.
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Meltdowner
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 25 2013
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 10279
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Posted: March 18 2015 at 04:46 |
Dave, let me know what you think of those electronic drums. It's not on top of my list but I'm thinking about getting one of those eventually. It seems cheaper and easier to record with, but I don't know about the quality of the samples or if custom samples can be uploaded there 
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2839
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Posted: March 18 2015 at 08:22 |
Will do, mate. Had a tryout, not bad. The feel is slightly different to acoustic drums, even with mesh heads. Just under a grand here for the DM 10 X kit. I'd spend that on a ride and two crash cymbals, if I went acoustic. I have no option due to the neighbours.
Plus, you can ignore the standard voices and plug it through EZ Drummer (et al). :-)
As a PS, ignore the cheaper kits. There are a few known probs with the DM 10 (cymbal placement) and the pads last about 8 months of heavy use. However !!! Cheaper to buy and run than a Gretsch six piece kit, which was what I was previously thinking about.
Back to the post ? I really do hope some modern ears listen to 70's prog drumming and make people go "wow". Because, if that's the case, 15 years later, we'll have some really good drummers. ;-) I live in hope, I really do. ;-)
Edited by Davesax1965 - March 18 2015 at 08:26
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Meltdowner
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 25 2013
Location: Portugal
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Points: 10279
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Posted: March 18 2015 at 08:54 |
Thanks! By your description, it seems really good for the price and since it's customizable, even better. Not to mention that if I would go for an acoustic set I would also have to buy some microphones for recording
About the post, speaking from my experience, I would certainly be a much better musician if I didn't play so many video games over the years. There are now so many distractions that didn't exist in the 60's/70's 
Edited by Meltdowner - March 18 2015 at 08:54
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18146
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Posted: March 18 2015 at 08:59 |
Davesax1965 wrote:
Ahh well.... I think the problem with this post is that most people reading this can't differentiate a drag roll from a flam from a paradiddle. I think most people who aren't drummers would say, well, sorry, in that case, what is your opinion really worth ?
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I wonder why you didn't say that 9 out of 10 drummers that you hear today, only know how to keep track of time with their left hand (or right hand) on the snare drum, way too loud!!!! They don't even know how to take the "music" out of the notes, to create what the originators of the whole thing did!
I do not "dis-respect" the modern drummers, but hearing the same snare drum and time on every song, that band is no longer one of the better ones, because they can not define music ... they can only define their lack of knowledge of music! And the easiest road to take, of course, which is do the same thing over and over again ... just be faster or slower!
Davesax1965 wrote:
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So really, how do you actually measure music - an art form - or predict how modern ears will interpret "70's prog drumming", a lot of which is more jazz influenced ? A strange post.
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I'm not sure I would say more "jazz influenced", mostly because "jazz" is just as new an idiom in music as rock music is. The main difference between the two is electricity and that is the history of the 20th century that will re-define these musics left and right.
"Drumming" was not a major instrument until the "popular music" idioms. I will grant and agree that it could/should/would be a new INSTRUMENT towards an orchestra design, as it has a place to help with accents and such, but the way it is used these days in almost all rock music and jazxz music is a TOTAL WASTE ... if all you need is a timer, why waste a musician? And to my ears, those guys are not musicians ... they are just time keepers! You can hear them every day, almost every other piece of music ... that overly loud snare drum that is over used and the conventional bits and pieces to make it look like you are clever and can count time!
That is NOT what the original folks did at all! I think they were more concerned with creating "music" than they were with making sure the snare drum sound boring and the same!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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The Sloth
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 05 2013
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Points: 115
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Posted: March 18 2015 at 11:55 |
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Jazz was in the air in the 60's and 70's, the way metal and dance music is today. Jazz is texture and dynamics, the other two are about static force, repetition and perfection. That makes for a much more "faceless" music today, where the personality of the players is sacrificed for a holy devotion to THE CLICK.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2839
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Posted: March 18 2015 at 12:22 |
Hi Moshkito, interesting post there. Wrong, but interesting. ;-) Drum kits didn't exist before the mid 1920's. They started being formalised into the bass drum / snare / toms / ride / crash / hi hat combo about then. This was as a result of the rise of the jazz dance band. Before that, a whole mass of weirdness existed: generally referred to as a trap or contraption. (Traps are a make of drums nowadays - manufacturer).
Drummers generally don't keep time using the snare. They play badly using the snare, mainly. You're right in saying that a lot of drummers use snares to mark time but you're also probably missing the ones who, for example, mark time using a bass pedal.
Jazz is an idiom used to describe a style of playing which was more prevalent in the 1970's as it derived from an earlier style of drumming which had started with bop and bebop playing in the 50's. Comping - playing two patterns at once, mainly driven by a ride cymbal with accents from the snare and hi hat, is basically what was being played in the 50's and this transcribes into 70's prog. No one does it now. Everyone is convinced that Jon Bonham was an amazing player. Granted, his technique was good, but most of his sound came from his enormous Vistalite kit. Jon Bonham was a rock drummer. Listen to Ginger Baker, who gets very irritated if you call him anything other than a jazz drummer. I was lucky enough to see him a few years back - he played a jazz gig using matched, not trad, grip. He uses heavier sticks, 5A's, I believe, and not 9A's, which are more traditional for jazz, and suggests drummers practice no more than 30 mins a day to avoid overreliance and repetition on particular patterns. He is worth listening to - what he says is very interesting.
The world is full of bad drummers, but I've seen many good ones, including Carl Palmer (10 feet away) - Corky Laing (got one of his sticks at home) - Guy Evans etc. Everyone thinks drumming is easy. It ain't.
The love has gone out of it, though. As Gerinski said before, a lot of modern drummers play flat, without accents or dynamics. A lot are (badly) self taught. It's easy to be in a band or get a gig if you're a drummer, rare animal. Good drummers are even rarer. I intend to try to become a moderate one. I wish I had the time to become a good one, but - as Meltdowner says, too many distractions. ;-)
Edited by Davesax1965 - March 18 2015 at 12:24
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: March 19 2015 at 08:17 |
moshkito wrote:
"jazz" is just as new an idiom in music as rock music is. |
Yes, Chuck Berry and Bill Haley's hitherto undiscovered early 1930's wax cylinder 'proto-kindergarten' experiments dwarfed the rest of their subsequent output. You are either sponsored by a company that manufacture hallucinogenics or confined to a room with rubber wallpaper. Did Stravinsky cut his teeth on skiffle or was Elvis maybe a time lord? Spoiler alert: Pedro's reply will contain an assertion that no-one on PA can 'hear' the music in the way it should be listened to (i.e. chipped off his tits)
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Posted: March 19 2015 at 08:49 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
moshkito wrote:
"jazz" is just as new an idiom in music as rock music is. |
Yes, Chuck Berry and Bill Haley's hitherto undiscovered early 1930's wax cylinder 'proto-kindergarten' experiments dwarfed the rest of their subsequent output. You are either sponsored by a company that manufacture hallucinogenics or confined to a room with rubber wallpaper. Did Stravinsky cut his teeth on skiffle or was Elvis maybe a time lord?
Spoiler alert: Pedro's reply will contain an assertion that no-one on PA can 'hear' the music in the way it should be listened to (i.e. chipped off his tits)
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You're making an assumption that there was no rock music of any kind in the 1930's and probably so because of a movie or one story or two or a couple of old albums.
And for the record, you really need to do a couple of those hallucinogens to get off that huge pogo stick you are wearing!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: March 19 2015 at 11:57 |
" You're making an assumption that there was no rock music of any kind in the 1930's "
Yes, a common assumption here on Planet Earth. I believe Rocket 88 came out in March 1951 and is regarded as the first rock and roll song by some....... R&B, really.
Pass the hallucinogens. ;-)
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: March 19 2015 at 11:58 |
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Apologies that my post wasn't longer. Apparently longer posts are more correct. ;-)
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70s Prog Drumming to Modern Ears
