70s Prog Drumming to Modern Ears
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Topic: 70s Prog Drumming to Modern Ears
Posted By: paganinio
Subject: 70s Prog Drumming to Modern Ears
Date Posted: February 21 2012 at 20:24
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70s Prog Drumming to Modern Ears The drum department on Moving Pictures and 2112 are considered some of the best drumming in rock but are they still as good, by today's standards? I fail to notice anything spectacular. Have newer bands learnt all of Neil Peart's '70s tricks already? However, I find the drumming for King Crimson (Red) and Genesis (England) to be more unique sounding and intriguing than the two albums mentioned above. I can hear hints of Neil Peart in a lot of modern rock albums, but haven't found King Crimson and Genesis's drumming styles replicated by newer bands. So if people were trying to learn from 70s prog, why haven't they learnt from Crimson and Genesis? On a related note, legendary 70s guitarists such as Robert Fripp, Steve Howe and Ritchie Blackmore, are these people still among the best by today's standards? If the bar has been raised for drumming, then it should be for other instruments as well. Discuss or guide me to a thread that addresses the same topic. ------------- 
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: February 21 2012 at 20:51
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Peart revolutionized ROCK drumming. Though Hemispheres, Moving Pictures, Farewell to Kings, still are the pinnacles for rock drumming and Peart's drumming career it can sound unoriginal to today standards. Some reasons i think this may be is... -Influence is everywhere, so when it's compared to tons of other drummers since the albums have been released, Peart doesn't have the same individuality he had in the 70's and 80's. -I can't really describe it well, but i think it may be due to not having jazz-influence. It doesn't seem as timeless. Kind of a repetitiousness statement, but it seems to be slightly different. Bias and uninformed opinion i guess, hope i don't look dumb. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: February 21 2012 at 21:12
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Peart didn't have Jazz influence in his drumming, you serious?? Okay, so what would be examples of prog rock drumming that has Jazz influence, King Crimson's Red maybe? -------------
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: February 21 2012 at 21:24
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Peart is very limited to jazz influence, even he said that he was a machine - technical with flawless timing. Wasn't until Grubber that he became a bit more smooth and tried not to be a super-metronome. I think. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 21 2012 at 21:34
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Generally speaking, drumming and composition overall were vastly different prior to the 1) disco, electronic dance music, and the 80s when everything is grid-like and/or quantized, and 2) the introduction of digital audio editing in the 90s. These are watersheds that gradually decreased our tolerance for flexible time and tempo changes. Now, we are prog fans I assume, so we can take the time changes, but even still the rigidity of digital audio has its influence. A drummer now in the rock/pop genre is expected to keep very good time, and if he doesn't he will be edited to do so in post. Now, by my estimation, Neal was and still is a very tight drummer, especially in the 80s and on. Bruford is very certainly not, at least not on Yes and KC albums. This is to his credit though, as his flexibility allowed for much more innovation in polyrhythm than Peart had chops and immense creativity, but Bruford just thinks differently. Like a jazz drummer, which he is. Different styles for different purposes. Both are my most highly respected drummers in rock music. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: February 21 2012 at 21:40
Well said, exactly what i was trying to convey. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
stonebeard wrote:Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: February 21 2012 at 21:57
lolwut |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 21 2012 at 22:26
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Neil Peart ushered in a kind of tight, relentless style of drumming. It was sort of new at that time and that's it. He is quite overrated, though he's excellent. I, for one, like listening to him a lot more than Portnoy because for all his supposed machine like qualities, he still has great feel. Then again, Portnoy has a huge fanbase being that he is from DT while I would much rather listen to Gavin Harrison. No comparison, though, to Bruford or Moerlen or Vander. It's not so much to do with jazz but that rock musicians used to improvise a lot more at that time. You can still get that sort of flavour to some extent with some groups like Dave Matthews Band but a lot of heavy metal based bands prefer a more precise style of playing. It has its pluses and minuses, wouldn't say improvisation is everything either. |
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: February 21 2012 at 22:39
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'70s prog drumming is better than any drumming I could ever do, but that's true with nearly all drumming of any time period. ------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 21 2012 at 22:53
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don't look futher then to Mastodon and Brann Dailor to hear a drummer fully emrsed in Phil Collins and Bill Bruford, Gavin Harrison sites to persons Steve Gadd and Jeff Porcaro as main influences, and Danny Carey sites Lenny White and Bill Bruford (and Bonham) -------------  
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: February 21 2012 at 22:56
You're right, I think; Peart, though a great drummer, was very much grounded in traditional rock, not in jazz, and his playing represented the climax of hard rock drumming. He started with the driving rhythms of hard rock and metal, and took them to an extreme, both technically and musically. Bruford, Collins, and others like them, on the other hand, were more diverse in their playing, bringing in myriads of other influences instead of focusing on rock, per se. So because Peart's drumming was essentially rock-based, he spawned a host of imitators, while the less accessible prog drummers had a more limited influence. I don't think that this diminishes Peart's greatness; he just doesn't stand out as much because so many people tried to copy him. Just listen to the Foo Fighters' "Rope:" shameless Peart plagirism. If I'm totally wrong about this, please correct me, I'm not a drummer and don't know that much about said drums. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 00:29
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There have always been great drummers , even a few fantastic ones even today but I have seen Bill Bruford, Alan White , Billy Cobham, Paul Thompson, Simon Phillips, Leon Chancler, Mike Giles, Lenny White Mel Gaynor etc.... all were unique and technically insane but Bonham was simply monstrous . I am sure that most drummers could play like that without too much technical difficulty but the sheer bulldozer passion was something to behold. Drums is not just sound and speed , its mostly about sweat and brains. Gavin Harrison nearly blew me sideways in concert. Wow! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 00:43
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no-one bear like Pugwash though (John Weathers) his syncopative grooves are to behold, and are very intricate, and hard rocking, he must have the tongue straight in the mouth, but his face is all wiggeling like a hamster -------------
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 01:39
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Putting aside technical skill then Fred Schendel as a case in point is interesting. He is actually the keyboardist in Glass Hammer but on their early albums like Shadowlands and Lex Rex he also played the drums. What is unique about him is that he plays with pure ' feel' using a small electronic kit (although you wouldn't know it listening to those albums). I miss his drumming on later GH albums which now have a much more technical cold sound as a result. I like Fred's playing which style wise could be described as a less technical version of Bill Bruford.
Modern prog drumming seems to be a lot more harder in sound. Perhaps the influence of prog metal has brought this about? I like Morse solo albums and Portnoy's drumming is a strong feature of them but bares little resemblance to classic prog drumming. Thats okay though.
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Posted By: spknoevl
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 07:45
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70's prog and fusion drummers raised the bar for the instrument and of course, each generation builds on the one before and pushes the boundaries further. You can also add the proliferation of music schools to the list of reasons why there are so many technically proficient drummers (and guitarists, bassists, etc). It's no different than something like running the 5 minute mile: it was a major accomplishment the first time it was done, but now, competitive runners do it in half that time.
The one thing I notice is that while many of yesterday's drummers had very distinct styles and were easily recognizable, I sometimes find to differentiate between many of today's players. ------------- http://martinwebb.bandcamp.com The notes are just an interesting way to get from one silence to the next - Mick Gooderick |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 08:09
| ^^^^ Well, in the early years, the better singers and musicians impose themselves on certain aspects of the trade. Like Bruford's snare or Peart's hi hat technique. When I listen to Yes with Alan White, it's tough to get the absence of that snare out of my head because it's so distinct. Once they have it all covered, distinction becomes more nuanced and more insignificant. I am sure no two drummers sound quite like each other but the differences get less and less noticeable. |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 08:53
Walter Moore, a drummer who became a guitarist, also played drums on those albums you mention. I have no idea who is playing when on the albums though, since both are credited with drums. As to Peart, he was an innovator. Rush has had far more mass popularity than any of the other prog bands we talk about, therefore has probably inspired more drummers than Bruford or Collins (though Collins and Genesis were hugely popular in the 80s, it wasn't for the drumming at that point). |
Posted By: AlexDOM
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 09:42
| All I know is know from what I've heard of classic prog is nothing comes close to the drumming by Mike Portnoy on Train of Thought |
Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 09:58
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There haven't been any real quantum leaps in drumming since the jazz days of Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich etc. Everything that has been done since then can be directly traced back to them. Think of the jazz era as the great improvisational playground where
almost every technique used in drumming today has been developed (yes, even
extreme metal double bass techniques and blastbeats!). The merits of the great pop and rock drummers (including prog rock and fusion) lie in channeling these techniques into rhythms/grooves. Bear in mind that jazz playing is mostly improvisational and freeform, while pop and rock music are mostly strict and groove-based. Starting in the late 60s and early 70s, rock drummers began to enrich the drumming palette of rock (which to that points had been limited to rather few simple grooves and variations) by borrowing from jazz. Bill Bruford and Phil Collins are among the first generation of jazz-influenced rock drummers John Bonham and Keith Moon would be examples of drummers that came before the jazz "explosion" in rock. They were certainly jazz-influenced to some degree, but they were also much more grounded in traditional rhythm & blues patterns. That's why they're so hard-hitting and steady sounding as opposed to the complex, "light" sound of Bruford and Collins (I say it in quotes because Bruford would pioneer heavy prog drumming during his KC years). Neil Peart was influenced by both the jazz-influenced prog drummers and the strictly non-jazz rock drummers of the 60s. He didn't innovate, but I credit him with opening the door for more complex drumming in heavy music. Peart's drumming still sounds as good today as it was back then. It isn't and has never been among the best of rock drumming. I think the reason why Peart is rated so highly is that he's much easier to understand than many of the earlier prog drummers. Collins and Bruford often sacrificed accuracy for mood, so it's hard to make out exactly what they're playing. Peart is extremely accurate, almost machine-like, so it's easy to make out his parts and recognize them. It also helps that the production is much clearer. That is one reason why he's copied more often than Bruford and Collins: He's easier to copy. The other reasons is that Peart is closer to the values of modern rock music, i.e. he's simpler and heavier. Bruford and Collins would be too "light". |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 10:28
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I think that there are still many great great drummers from the 70s which still sound original. A lot of them for me have probably a more flexible "jazzy" feel to them a lot of times. Guys like Robert Wyatt, Phil Collins, Bill Bruford, Jaki Libezeit (I totally forgot how to spell his last name. Can's drummer), Pip Pyle, Chris Cutler (big emphasis on his style)- still sound great. Can't emphasize how important a good drummer is, just makes a record. If his style is original- it just makes everything so much better. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: spknoevl
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 10:29
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I'd say Billy Cobham and to a lesser extent, Mitch Mitchell, were the pioneers that fueled the generations of jazz-influenced rock drummers. They brought the fluidicity and chops of jazz drumming into the rock drumming lexicon. Today's crop of drummers has merely built upon those influences while becoming even more technically proficient. ------------- http://martinwebb.bandcamp.com The notes are just an interesting way to get from one silence to the next - Mick Gooderick |
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 10:57
What? ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 11:22
Hmmmm ... I would imagine that Bonzo and Moonie deserve some credit for helping make rock music more important, and the biggest proof of their work is that both those bands pretty much died when they left us. But it would be, along these lines tough to not include folks like Ginger Baker, who I don't consider a great drummer, because the music itself is very conventional compared to the stuff that the other folks did.
Sadly, there are, and there were, a halacious number of drummers involved in music that were far more musically attuned that we will never give them credit for ... and right off the bat, someone like Pierre Moerlin comes to mind, and so does Manni Neumeier whose drumming feats are insane and one of the most courageous free form drummer ever ... that doesn't get stuck to the metronome ... which is what most drummers in rock music all do!
But we're forgetting some insane drummers ... Airto was, and still is, fabulous, and there have been way too many to mention here ... which unffortunately, few people know, or will ever give an ear to.
I am not sure if Neal's drumming is as good as the music around him was ... which of course he was a part of putting it together. The same/similar thing happened with Carl Palmer, where the music was highly expressive and the tone was about the theatricality of the music itself, rather than "the drumming" or the "anything" else. At issue here, and I don't think Gavin (for example) is a bad drummer at all, but in general, comparing him, or the turkey that used to be in DT to any of these master musicians, is a bit hard ... specially when most of these folks are way too metronome oriented to be discussing "music" ... unless we make the call that rock music is the music for the next 500 years and that metronomic music is the only thing you will ever hear and ... classical music is dead and gone.
All in all, I like this discussion, but it will run into things that are a serious issue with the discussion of "music" and its "history", for which the definition of "progressive music" is making a serious attempt to ignore history (specially!) in order to make its own mark. Unffortunately, the only thing that we're doing here is discussing FAVORITES that we like, because if you were discussing music, you would have already compared many of those folks you mentioned to hundreds, and yes ... thousands of other drummers out there in many other cultures that also deserve the credit but never will because of the Hollywood style of discussion here on the top ten.
But yeah ... very good topic and worth the discussion with the usual issue that most folks are not as well heard in other disciplines and most people that like Peart have not given themselves a serious listen to many other styles and abilities and musics in order to make what I would imagine should be considered a "fair appraisal".
In my book, there are 4 massive drummers in the history of rock music ... and the rest are simply fan favorites hoping to make a dent somewhere ... and when you reply to this sentence in anger you will know exactly what you are standing up for. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: akaBona
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 11:38
| when talking about drummers, we must not forget Mr. Vander ! |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 11:40
| I like spice of life variety. And the 70's had it in spades. Where are the melodic drummers like Bruford today? Where are the off beat drummers, that could play a drum fill like Bonham? So unexpected, but better than anything I could imagine, given 30 years. Decades later, I can still recall the rhythums, and drum fills these guys created and played. Hell, I love "Radar Love," especially for the memorable drum riffs. The 70's had memorable music at every level. From pop to prog. I was talking music with a young man not long ago. He was telling me how much better today's singers and drummers are. He said, " They just sing with more emotion and...", then he stopped and pointed at my stereo and said, " Like that guy's voice just doesn't cut it, and the drummer can't keep a steady beat." I said, " OMG you just dissed Robert Plant and John Bonham!" He seemed pleased that he had sent me into a gut busting belly laugh... I said, "Ok, Dustin. Think of two or three of your all time favorite new songs. Pick one. Can you hum it, or sing it for me?" He replied, " Sure I can." After 3 or 4 mumbled attempts, I could see a puzzled look cross his face. " I don't why I can't remember it just now. Wierd. " was all he said. I thought , " Ummm, I could probably hum, or sing 1000 songs from the 60's and 70's. Todays music is hard to remember." |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 11:59
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Everyone needs to just listen to Zach Hill. Modern drummer, plays tight sometimes, but also has the ability to be loose as hell. He changes tempos, styles, time signatures, all effortlessly while throwing in as much sh*t as possible. If you think that "all drumming has been done before" you need to check him out. His main influence is Christian Vander, but he takes it a few steps farther. Most drummers aren't even in good enough shape to play what he plays.
Everyone that says that "the old stuff is always better" are a bunch of nostalgic w**ks. There were musical geniuses in the 50s, 60s, and the 70s, and there are musical geniuses now. There always will be.
Are we to say that Franz Liszt was not a good composer just because Mozart did something similar before him? Everyone borrows from everyone whether its consciously or subconsciously. Instead of arguing who is better or what era had better drummers, why can't we realize that these drummers are ALL f**king amazing. Buddy Rich amazed us all, but are you saying to me that if Buddy Rich saw Portnoy playing he wouldn't be impressed?
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Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 12:02
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And if you think you can't find "variety" in modern music just try Perhaps Contraption, Asillimaav (spelling?) Vasarat, Don Cab, Volta- sh*t, you can even find variety in underground hip-hop like BusDriver.
But omphaloskepis, that kid you were talking to sounds like an idiot.
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Posted By: Stevo
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 12:07
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I think the drum and guitar work of yesterday still show well against today's. What has changed is musical taste. I think Collin's work on Selling is some of the best ever , but that light and loose style doesn't seem to be in favor any more. While he could play it heavy too, as on Fripp's Exposure album, or certain BrandX pieces, its the Genesis stuff that stands out for me. Giles playing on ITCOCK is similar in my estimation. Speed and power seems to be the preference today. Same for guitars.
On the surface, the guitar players today seems to have come a long way with the likes of Satriani, Petrucci, Malmsteen and a host of other shredders, but are any of them as versatile and musical as Howe? Its a taste difference more than a skillset difference.
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Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 12:15
Zach Hill is terrific, but this thread is about 70s drummers. Doesn't mean there aren't great guys post-70s. Most of my favorite music is from the 2000s I think. No need to get mad, nobody's getting nostalgic, at least in this thread. When things tend to get all "70s was better blahhhhhhhhhhh" I tend to get a bit pissy myself... ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 12:17
and then I read your post. Music is just as good now. Stop being annoying. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: spknoevl
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 12:30
Most of that hardness, heaviness, tightness or whatever else you want to call it, has more to do with the amount of compression used in modern drum recording and nothing about how hard the drums are being hit compared to how they were hit back in the 70s. The compression is why modern drum recordings sound thumping and every whack of the snare drum is consistently hard. Also, many modern recordings, especially with double kick drums, substitute the mic'd kicks for samples since most drummers cannot play double-kicks consistenly enough. The trade-off for all that compression is that a lot of subtley is sacrificed. Collins, Bruford, Weathers etc would sound just as heavy as Portnoy or Harrison if they were recorded using modern recording techniques. ------------- http://martinwebb.bandcamp.com The notes are just an interesting way to get from one silence to the next - Mick Gooderick |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 12:31
Yep .. and I forgot him ... now I feel like a total turkey. Yeah ... 5 drummers now ... because Christian is on a class all his own that defies description ... but I am not sure that we're going to get a "Rush fan" to actually listen to Magma ... that would be scandalous, I imagine! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 12:37
Portnoy is overrated, and that song is boring. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 13:01
| Your right. Some of today's music is fantastic. I purchased over 40 albums from 2011, thanks to progarchives. Opeth, Dream Theater, Unexpect, Sean Filkins, Discipline, Mastodon, Steven Wilson, Anubis, Airbag, and many other artists put out great albums in 2011, which I am now proud to own and enjoy. It's just damn hard to sift through all the manure to find a prize pony of an album. Hell, 2011 was banner year for progressive music. And yes there is variety. The two Unexpect albums I have blown me away, the same way Sleepytime Gorilla Museum leaves me in awe. It was just so easy back in the 70's. I was a 12 year old listening to Yes, Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Genesis, Gentle Giant, and Frank Zappa. It seems like an amazing album came out every other week. And it was easy to find. Without a site like Progarchives ...I would be drilling dry well, after dry well. And yes the young man who dissed Zeppelin was an idiot son, of a friend, of a woman who works with my wife. Maybe it's just me? I still think today's music is not as memorable as the musical output from the previous 400 years. Just my opinion. That and a quarter will get ya..... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 13:03
The guitar is actually much more appreciated within the concept of "music" since it is a bonafide valid instrument although 400 years ago it was always accoustic ... and for my own bit on history of music, I really believe that after all is said and done, rock'n'roll will not be important but the great gift of an instrument for the 20th century will not be the synthsizer ... but the electric guitar !!! Synths are on the poop list because now they are only used as a replacement for people ... and no one from you to me and everyone else, wants to be replaced! On top of it, most players these days proclaiming to be doing "prog" are not using the synths as an instrument ... again, they are replacing other parts of an orchestra.
Now ... back to the drums ... interesting point on Bonzo and Plant. I actually always thought that Bonzo was the reason why Plant did not want to do Zeppelin again ... because he probably already knew that the number of drummers that could play around with his voice and vocal bits and pieces could only be numbered in one finger! ... and a really good drummer would not just stick to the "timing" because the voacl thing that Robert did on any bootleg out there was massive and different each night ... and only a drummer with real EARS would be good enough to support Robert, instead of a drummer that only knows a metronome and is not listening to the players ... only his meter! Now you also know why Led Zeppelin was one of the most important live act at the time and why those bootlegs were such precious gems ... the energy and the little things were awesome ... and worth having! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 13:42
There is no Dream Theater song called "Train of Thought" bro.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 13:57
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Bah, read Stream of Consciousness for some reason. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 14:07
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^Well that can't be right. That's not boring. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 14:10
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I think so. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 14:12
Well as I'm sure will all know there was plenty of crap to sift through back then. While I'm sure the amount of artists today certainly has increased by a hell of a lot, well I think it's a ratio of crap to good stuff it sorta stays the same, there's plenty more crap, there's plenty more good stuff. I don't mind you find music more memorable back then (though I think memorability is a trait albums can get with time as they also reach that "classic" status), but I just really don't see how we can say objectively or subjectively that music has changed in quality, just because we are living in a different decade. I just see it as silly. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 14:16
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Train of Thought, as metal as they were on that album, features Mike Portnoy at his peak. Say what you want about his skills nowadays, but he has played some seriously complicated stuff ion that album. He's kind of been riding out that peak ever since, and is still solid, but he's admitted to not practicing anymore, so I can't defend him post-Octavarium. I look at him as the updated Neil Peart, going a little more beyond what he did. There are, of course, even more insane drummers than Portnoy, but he is probably the most enjoyable modern-rock drummer IMO. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 14:32
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Simon Phillips is very influentual on Mike Portnoy as well Simon shines in this medley http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E08AImQfPy8" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E08AImQfPy8 -------------
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Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 15:40
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 15:58
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I personally think jazz-fusion drumming in the 70's is the peak for me. Insanely technical but grooving at the same time. Bruford and to a lesser extent Collins came from that culture and as a result their influence on classic prog. The are also what I like to call "compositional" drummers who instead of thinking in terms of beats and fills, actively compose a part to go with music. The difference is always an immense uptick in the quality of music.
As tech metal guy, the two guys my age that I think about are Gene Hoglan and Sean Reinert, both Death alumni. Hoglan is indeed almost a computer and there are times when that is exactly what the music calls for. There are things on SYL's Alien that just defy the mind. That album was just about going as crazy as possible and Hoglan took it upon himself to try to be as difficult as possible.
Reinert can play some technically amazing stuff, but it always grooves. It doesn't always move me, but when it does, it's amazing. Probably my favorite guy to meld jazz and tech together in a modern context.
I still haven't figured out the Zach Hill worship yet but I'm not a drummer.
Very very few guitarists do anything to surprise these days. Tosin certainly wows me, but the days of the guitar guru are long gone.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 16:39
Rush is my favorite band, and I love Magma. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 16:42
I have to agree that we can sometimes become so obsessed with ideas of innovation and "doing something new" that we tend to underestimate the value of those who simply built on the work of those before them. Not "copied" it, mind, but "built on it." But Buddy Rich had quite a low opinion of rock music and very well might not be impressed with Portnoy. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 22 2012 at 19:28
Read that apparently he hadn't heard or feigned to not know of Peart and Bruford but said he liked Steve Gadd. This is what some fan who claims to have talked to Rich says, so I don't have it on quote. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 01:25
You didn't bother to read the credits then
Fred plays drums on all of Shadowlands and Lex Rex while Walter plays on one track on Chronomotree (''Chronos Deliverer'') and thats it.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 03:26
Well, the mainstream has gotten more crap now and maybe people base their assumptions about the entire music scene on the mainstream (not saying that is correct at all, but that's how stereotypes evolve). Let's not forget Yes and ELP were massive live draws back then, especially ELP. But that has less to do with any objective base of quality but a change in the way the music business (or for that matter, Hollywood) operates. Since the end of the 70s, they have generally begun to put a premium on entertainment over everything else so the number of 'sincere' products that still manage to slip in and petrify the audience has gone down. There was a lot of crap even at that time but there was also room for something more pertinent or substantial. That is steadily going down. Critics have played a part in it by more or less dubbing anything with a message as 'pretentious and by glorifying this business of "leaving your brain out at the entrance before you step into the cinema hall"'. I personally feel it is important that the mainstream doesn't become a completely laughable scene in the interest of getting more people in future generations into the arts but I don't know that many here would agree with that.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 04:59
It's all down to ones tastes ain't it? I personally prefer the good old days, and speaking from a drummer's point of view, I think the way things were done back then left infinitely more room for the other instruments to evolve in. When you play like some of the modern drumming gods (No, I'm not going to mention any names here ) - you sort of eradicate the possibility of another road taken - an altogether different approach to a far too well trodden path. That is the down fall of being tight as hell, but in a metronomic sense of the word - focusing on impossible rhythms and poly-thangs. Things quickly get predictable.The best drummers are just like the rest of any great musicians really - people who are not afraid of using their mistakes as something worthy of building on - instead of binning it instantly. Hendrix played like this, and that is what made him genius IMHO. A modern drummer who follows this principle is Russian maniac Ivan Fedotov off Vespero, who reminds me of the good old days - only with far more caffeine in his blood stream... ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 05:14
There is unfortunately a view these days that the slightest hint of a 'mistake' or 'inconsistency' is unprofessional or 'sloppy'. Apparently, some drummers even paste one sample of the 'correct' fill wherever else it is used in the song to ensure perfect duplication because the same pattern should supposedly not sound different in a different part of the song. We really have got very far away from the point where rock was supposed to be imperfect, raw and soulful. Rock is unfortunately just a vehicle for 'validation' of technical ability in the hands of some...I will not say all of them are like that. I have been told that expecting mistakes or an element of chance rather than metronomic perfection is an old fashioned view. Well, now even Steven Wilson has come around to that view and tried to capture it in GfD so I wonder what do people have to say to that.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 07:24
Thank you ... and to me this is what made for great drumming. You can add Mani Neumeier here and when you listen to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums by Guru Guru, you get the idea that Mani does not play rhythm ... he's actually countering and giving the guitarist a hard time! Pierre is a bit different, sort of out in space in tea land (for sure) but he manages to make the albums he was on sound spectacular ("You" specially with the unbelievable drumming on the 2 long cuts back to back that you can not teach any drummer at all.!)
I think that the issue was not so much the "drumming" in that time, as it was the permissiveness to allow you to be more of yourself and create your own expression which the movement in the 60's was really all about ... we forget that when discussing "progressive" and how important that "detail" was to the definition of the music itself.
I will never state that today's music is not good, there are some excellent things out there, however, too many of them are totally conventional within the same song format with a different riff over it, or a different sound effect, and I do not believe that is a good description of "prog" or "progressive" at all ... the folks in the 60's and 70's were not exactly just showing their ability to count 1234 ... but today ... listen to that drumming and time keeping ... is that all there is in the music? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 07:27
Listen to the early albums by Ricky Lee Jones with Steve Gadd ... he makes those three albums and gets her to stretch the pipes instead of just a regular song ... and when he is no longer there all of a sudden it is blues or some NO stuff or something else ... and not Ricky any more! What made her, is long forgotten and not heard today ... things like "we belong together" are so progressive compared to many things we listen to here that it's not funny! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 07:32
I don't think that it is that complicated ... it just has more drums than anyone else and it looks like it's complicated ... but just because you can get 16 hits in a beat, doesn't mean you are a great drummer ... maybe time keeper, which Mike definitly is, but a touch drummer he is not and will never be because the stuff that he stix to is not well known for detail to depth and feeling except loudness and more effects!
He is, however, an excellent showman ... and in many ways he reminds me of Ozzy ... you could not keep your eyes off the turkey and he always managed to get your attention on stage! That has NOTHING to do with his drumming and showing off by throwing a stick to the audience! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 07:44
One of my biggest concerns has always been that if YES and ELP came out today, or KC for that matter, that the majority of the fans today would call the music pretentious and boring. That talking to the wind (and not listening) is stupid and not politically correct in the top ten design of things ... that individuality is against the socialistic mold of the top ten where of the ten songs, 6 of them have the same drum beats!
While those bands were massive draws in concert, the reality was that they were STILL not played on radio and not quite favored by the record companies, until YES broke huge with Fragile, and then ELP with Trilogy. Up until that time, Roundabout was never played on AM radio and was never a hit, and Lucky Man had a shortened version for a single on AM radio. It was on the FM dial that these made it big, as well as KC, because at the time, FM radio, specially in America, was about the counter culture fighting the establishment that AM radio represented ... and still does ... by making you think that this and that is the number one or two! They still control your ideas and thinking!
The single biggest thing today, is that radio, and tv, or concerts are no longer as important as each band's ability to do their own work and sell their own ... heck ... if my own band can sell 300k dollars of CD's and stuff every year, why do I need radio or tv or Prog Archives? ... I don't! see the point? ... I'm making it on my own. And this was really important, even when Marillion about 20 years ago, was broke and posted it on their website and they got several thousand folks to help them do their next album ... and that was the last straw that showed Gong, and many other bands, that they could get it on with the fans and the websites and tell the record companies and the fickle public fan'dom to take a serious hike.
Today, we seem to think that some bands are good, or better, because they sell more (again the top ten thing), and the discussion about the music dies with the favoritism all around. I think that we have lost the ability to know what musicianship means and what the art of it all is all about. The majority of stuff that I'm hearing is nothing but more commercial music for the hit-ridden society. I just listened to The Mars Volta new thing ... and I am having a hard time finding originality in there and forms of music that are new ... it's the same format! Nice stuff, no doubt ... and I think that it helps distort the definition of "music" per se. Again, if you sell enough, you can do this and not have to work at a restaurant 40 hours per week with no benefits ... so in the end, it comes off like you, I or anyone else, couldn't careless what you think and I will continue to write my own stuff ... and sooner or later someone goes ... you know they have done 7 albums ... and blah and blah ... and we all agree ... it's not great but it's very good and deserving of the mentions we give them. No question there ... but to compare them to the "masters" or the inventors of the era we discuss is too far a stretch that I am not sure can be bridged that easily. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 09:03
I know the limits of Portnoy's playing. I was just saying, he is good at what he does, and that ToT was the peak of his abilities. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: AlexDOM
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 11:20
| I mostly love Portnoy's massive fills... but yeah the best drumming technically was during the jazz age I'd say |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 15:11
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Metal wise i prefer Brann Dailor, one of my favorite drummers. Aginor can back me up on his skill, as he is a big fan too. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: February 23 2012 at 16:57
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Some of those 70s prog and fusion drummers were brilliant, and still sound brilliant, today people like Curt Cress of Passport and Jo Koinzer of Brainstorm, to name but a few |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 24 2012 at 01:41
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: February 24 2012 at 12:13
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Slightly related: I really don't dig the modern sound of the drum kit used on basically every rock/metal/prog release since the millennium. That thump of a kick drum, the really heavy "whack" on the snare, and in general a clinical, sterile, peaky way of producing the kit. I hate it, so in a sense that helps the older drum recordings seem better. What seems to have disappeared somewhere is the sound of a kit being played; it has turned into a mere rhythm generator (whether those rhythms are metronomic or really complex). I appreciate the immense skill of people like Mike Portnoy, but why, with him, do I feel like I'm being slapped 'round the face with the word "virtuosity", when with Billy Cobham I feel I am hearing a performance, complete with all the nuances and variation in areas other than rhythm? Why does the snare now make exactly the same noise every time it is struck? Why do the toms cut through everything with the urgency of a tribal warlord? Why does the kick drum in any rock band now induce a headache in me? A genuine question: is it the players or the production? And, does anybody else agree with me? ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: February 24 2012 at 12:21
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Right off the top of my head, Anekdoten have a very warm and earthy production style. The drums sound very human to me. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 24 2012 at 12:47
 Brann is fantastic, spessialy on Sleeping Giant, and he foes mad on Where Strides the Behemoth (and on the entire Remission albuM)i also like a drummer named Matt Cameron should be mentioned, put on some Soundgarden and focus mainly on the drums, as a drummer i think he is one of the best, but he is not often brought into discussion coos he playas in the cursed style of grunge were musicality is not the focus from the fans but the lyrics and feel of the music, Matts drumming is not in the focus of the listener, but if you focus on it he is really a power house, less so then Grohl, but with more fines and do more wow moments on drums, cause he knows how to do it, how to play offbeat ride or china while playing straight with the rest, which is common in jazz or jazz rock to manipulate the time-feel, have you ever mainly focused on Matts drumming Horizons
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: February 24 2012 at 13:06
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Spoonman and Jesus Christ Pose are classics, and have some great drumming. I'd give a better list, but i haven't listened to them in a while. I could bust out Superunknown and Badmotorfinger and name another dozen though. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 24 2012 at 13:12
here are another great drummer track, solid Bonham thumper -------------
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: February 24 2012 at 13:24
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Drumming wise, not a huge fan of the second track - though overall it's an interesting song for them. The first song you posted actually reminded me a lot of Zeppelin. I heard Zashmir, Dazed and Confused, and hints of Good Times Bad Times. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 24 2012 at 13:27
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Cameron also played in a avant-prog band listed in PA. Jon showed me it -------------
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: February 24 2012 at 14:43
See that's weird because one of the biggest turn offs for me about 70s music is the 'sloppy' production on the drums. I just feel more comfortable hearing that 'polished' more forceful drum sound.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 24 2012 at 20:03
This is exactly what I was talking about earlier, there's a huge cultural shift in the way rock is perceived. I don't know how and where it came to take root because I agree with thehallway; I do find Cobham more expressive and I accept that expression may entail some human imprecision and imperfection. If I wanted something cold and precise, I would rather listen to electronic music because it's often much more adventurous, esp electroacoustic stuff, in terms of structure, instead of simply piling riff upon bludgeoning riff. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 25 2012 at 04:18
To respond specifically to your post now, I think drum equipment itself has changed. At least, that's what a musician friend of mine said...that it is tough to reproduce the tone of a Bruford or Bonham with contemporary equipment. But someone like Portnoy also has a very different approach from Cobham or any of the great drummers of that era. Their playing was responsive and fluid. Portnoy's style is ultimately much more rooted in metal and for him, crushing power is important. I think the problem, if anything, is DT's music is simply not extreme enough to warrant that style of drumming; I could understand Lombardo or Hoglan playing like that because the music calls for it. Take this performance, it seems to be rendered with altogether different sensibilities from the likes of someone like Portnoy and the drums sound quite beautiful: |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: February 25 2012 at 05:16
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^ I've seen that vid before. A very funky yet subdued performance. Maybe my predicament is that I just like jazz drummers. I'd take a funk beat over a rock one any day. However, I'm also a huge fan of what I'd call "beat drummers" (Starr, Watts, Steel....) My favourite rock drummer is probably Carl Palmer, who is hardly in the metal/hard vein I was talking about yesterday. Although he does bring A LOT of power to the kit. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 25 2012 at 05:25
| Ditto, I don't really like a loud drum tone unless the music is heavy enough to support it. I like that kind of drumming in metal, specifically styles like thrash or death metal. Definitely not in heavy metal or hard rock where I feel groove is more important. |
Posted By: Ludjak
Date Posted: February 25 2012 at 06:18
| I very much agree with thehallway's and rogerthat's posts, I never liked neither the sound nor the sensibility of modern rock drummers (which is also one of the reasons I find it very hard to get into most contemporary progressive rock). I've always preferred jazz or jazz-influenced drumming. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 25 2012 at 08:40
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This is an example where I relate to modern rock drumming. Then again, AiC were very inventive and, like on this song, came up with great patterns rather than just going fill-crazy. |
Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: February 25 2012 at 20:24
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I know jazz drumming's been talked about, but what about other black forms of rhythmic music? Namely, soul and funk. If you were a drummer in the 70s, you *had* to be paying attention and groovin' to what Sly was doing, and Wonder, and later, P-Funk. (Check out, for example, Bowie's late 70s albums.) Having said that, I know that more than a few prog bands had a total absence of "black" in their music. Genesis, for example. (This isn't a criticism: it's one thing I love about it - it's why their music was able to so successfully evoke an earlier period in English history, as well as other classes. I believe it was intentional.) Whereas, listen to DSOTM and WYWH and you just *know* PF was listening to hard soul and funk (and gospel too), and this is reflected in Mason's (under-rated) style. |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: February 26 2012 at 08:19
I agree. And I adore funk drumming, it's one of the things that makes albums like Wish You Were Here really good. James Brown's drummer(s?) was excellent. It's almost the bridge between jazz and rock. Crimson had it covered, Yes to a degree, Supertramp for sure......... Caravan, ABSOLUTELY, and these tend to be my favoured prog groups. They have the interesting music, set to the grooviest beats. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: February 26 2012 at 08:53
Wow! what a great post.
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: February 26 2012 at 08:54
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: February 26 2012 at 09:13
The only piece which sounds close to "Black rhythmic music" is "Los Endos". The piece is performed by Phil Collins and Chester T. (?) (da?) and is very African, Latin, and very dance oriented. It's the live version from "Seconds Out" that comes to mind. Sly gave a lot of secret hand signals to the musicians on stage. The hand signals were combined with cues that were obvious to the audience only in the sense that they thought it was part of the act. This takes hours of practice where the band leader trains the musicians at rehearsal to memorize about 20 different signals.
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 26 2012 at 10:47
-------------
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Posted By: 40footwolf
Date Posted: February 26 2012 at 13:51
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I think Bill Bruford, as technical as he was, is also kind of a groove drummer, and that seems to have fallen out of fashion in rock lately. I tend to agree with this part of a Steven Wilson interview on UltimateGuitar.com: Now the way they made those records is very, very different to the way I was taught to make records or the way I learnt to make records. ‘Cause I learnt to make records in the kind of the beginning of what we call the computer recording era. Things like going into a studio with a band and just setting up and playing as a group, I never really did that; I never did that on any of my albums. It was always about overdubbing and meticulously kind of analyzing every aspect and controlling everything and having the drummer play for example to a tempo track so he never speeded up and he never slowed down.
Well, those bands never did that. And you know what? The records sound better—they just sound better. The drummer is speeding up and slowing down and the band are not always together; the singer is sometimes out of key a bit and the records just sound fantastic. There’s leakage on all the instruments from every other instrument because they’re all in a studio; they’re all in a room playing together. I mean all that stuff is everything I was told you shouldn’t do and everybody from my generation was told you shouldn’t do: get complete separation; have the drummer play to a tempo track and all that stuff. Tune the vocal with Auto-Tone or Melodyne or whatever it is. Those guys never did that on those records and those records are the best records we’ve ever had in my opinion. In my opinion those records, the early ‘70s records if you listen to bands like Crimson or Led Zeppelin or whoever that is, those records will probably never be bettered. And they had none of that sh*t going on.
------------- Heaven's made a cesspool of us all. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 26 2012 at 16:38
that's exactly what makes modern music mostly boring to me - they simply don't take any risks anymore. everything has to be "perfect", which also makes it ultimately boring. hardly anyone records an album live in the studio anymore, as many bands in the late 60s and early 70s had to do simply due to financial problems. granted that albums recorded that way don't sound "perfect", but they definitely sound more exciting. as to the drumming: I like it when a drummer just goes with the music and plays whatever comes to his mind; that's how drumming should be, in my opinion. many of the drummers iin the late 60s and early 70s did that. cutting and copying certain parts of the drumming so that the drumming sounds exactly alike in certain passages is totally insane, in my opinion -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 26 2012 at 18:08
Have to agree with this. To my admittedly crusty and faulty ears, what demarcates much contemporary rock drumming today with that of the early 70's is the dearth of interactive playing i.e. the earlier mindset was that the pulse is already contained in the music, so the drummer doesn't necessarily have to put it there. Instead, he/she would create patterns that act as a dynamic and reciprocal dialogue with the other musicians. That's not to say contemporary music doesn't have this (just that there seems to be a lot less of it and a lot more drummers who merely identify the underlying pulse and dial it in via an 'in the pocket groove')A really (bad) example of this is how Carl Palmer's sublime interpretive playing on say 1971's, Pictures at an Exhibition degenerated into a bmp -thwack-bmp-thwack metronome on 1992's Black Moon On the other hand, Danny Carey is an example of a brilliant modern drummer who seems to incorporate both approaches into his playing to memorable effect (shame I loathe Tool though  )------------- 
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Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: February 27 2012 at 01:06
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So is he still making his records like he was taught? or is he trying to record everybody in the same room, like in the 70's? i think he still wants everything to sound perfect. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 27 2012 at 01:56
I would just mention in respect of Carl Palmer that he adopted 2 bass drums when he joined Asia and deliberately changed his style to fit in. He had received a lot of criticism around 1977-1980 and that affected him negatively and I think contributed to his change in style. After Asia he never got it back and his drumming has remained stiff ever since sadly.
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Posted By: tripwire
Date Posted: February 27 2012 at 02:55
Exactly what i was thinking..Brann Dailor is one of the best contemporary prog drummers around in my opinion Gavin harrison as well |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 27 2012 at 04:46
I think that quote is with regard to the Grace From Drowning album and to me, it does reflect a change in his approach, esp Remainder and the Black Dog. It doesn't sound exactly like the 70s but he never said it would. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 27 2012 at 12:20
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the most overlooked drummer in PA is Danny Seraphine in Chicago, just saying, evrytime i hear Chicago and pay atteniton to Danny im always rememberd how great he is, and that he is not that much behind Collins, Bruford, Palmer and Peart
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: February 27 2012 at 12:57
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Just watched Los Lobos last night. They had a young kid playing with the old geezers and he clearly has done a bit of both. But the way he could capture the real feel of many many styles was astounding. It really is a lost art. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: February 27 2012 at 13:44
i'm not sure he changed his approach about recording methods , although he thinks the 70's approach had something "magical" about it , there are pluses and minuses to every approach. anyway he chooses he is a master . if you would like to hear an example of a great album recorded in the same room nowadays , you should check out 'resistor' album 'rise' . and also because the music is amazing . |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: February 27 2012 at 16:12
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Related anecdote: The only (failed) recording experience I ever had is when I and my band of stoner psyche and prog heads went to record at a freinds recording studio that primarily recorded metal-core and pop-rap type music. The whole thing really came to a head when our drummer refused to record to a click track using triggers. He bacame even more heated when the guy recording went through and replaced his snare with a sample to make it sound more "crisp". The whole thing was traumitizing for us as we were primarily a jam band... they didn't even have a room big enough for all of us to play together at once, the final product sounded like some generic post-grunge band and not like the psyche/jam/kraut thing that we had always set out to be. Needless to say we scrapped the recording endevor after that!------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 27 2012 at 18:53
In a way, this quote from Wilson makes a lot of sense, and it's a shame really that recordings had to get so "plastic". The real way to make music is to play it together. If you are not good enough to sing and sound good by yourself, then you shouldn't be a singer. If playing together in the studio to make a record invariably risks mistakes and the album won't sound so perfect, then that's the way it should be: we are not perfect, and if the music is to be a human creation, then it shouldn't be perfect either. Maybe it should strive to be perfect, but not made forcefully "perfect" by artificial means. What I think doesn't make so much sense is, if Wilson thinks modern recording is flawed because of it "perfectionism", and 70's techniques ultimatley gave better results, then why doesn't he record with the old techniques? Surely if he wanted to he could do it. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 27 2012 at 21:13
Actually, he has...factually speaking. I cannot speak for how much the change is evident to listeners but to quote from an article: "A musical Magellan who is constantly exploring the exotic sounds inside his head, Wilson is accustomed to mapping out each musical coordinate prior to recording. This time, Wilson encouraged his musicians to improvise their solos. He even instructed Nic France to treat each song as if it were an extended solo rather than focus on holding down a groove. " Further, “I was really focused on one thing on this record, and that was the beauty of sounds”, reveals Wilson who, at 43, seemingly hasn’t aged in 10 years. “The tone of the snare drum, which you don’t hear in metal music. To hear the breathing of woodwinds and the creaking of old mellotrons and Leslie cabinets and a real choir. A very kind of organic palette of golden sounds, which is something I associate with that period of experimentation and searching of the early 1970s.” And according to that Ultimate Guitar interview, the musicians did apparently record together as opposed to separately. "The approach to Grace For Drowning is old school—put a bunch of musicians in the same room at the same time and let magic happen." "A lot of the music on that record was made with a bass player, drummer, guitar player and Theo Travis played sax and woodwinds live in the studio. No click tracks. Not on all the record but there are a lot of sections where it’s recorded in that kind of old-fashioned way. " |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: February 28 2012 at 00:48
| Actually i can say i'm pretty frustrated by porcupine tree's album which i can't connect to ( apart from in absentia ) and i don't know why but somehow 'grace for drowning' is a winner . i love it , could be the reason we are talking about... |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 28 2012 at 00:51
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There is definitely a lot of feel and 'looseness' in Remainder the Black Dog. The drumming especially sounds great, subtle rather than bludgeoning. Could be that that quality appeals to you. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 06 2012 at 12:41
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Hi,
I've had a little time on this subject ... and a chance to read more of the responses.
With that said:
... every day is a different day ... the music of today is not the music of tomorrow. The music of tomorrow is not anything that we can relate to today. The music of yesterday is mostly forgotten and ignored. So, comparing any of these is a really difficult thing to do, and the best we can do (not always) is discuss our favorites and not look at the playing as something that is interesting and different from a musical point of view. I think this is Fridel's point, more than anything else ... comparing Mike in Dream Theater to Mani Neumeier ... would make Mike look like a turkey that can't play drums ... why? ... check out some of his stuff. He's not rhythm, he's not this or that or a conventional player ... and sometimes he is soloing around the guitarist ... and I can tell you that 9 out of 10 guitarists out there would probably die and leave the stage quickly ... and this guy is not afraid to "thrash it" either when you hear him with the Acid Mothers Temple ... which Mike would not last with for 5 minutes!
In the end, in those days, there was a very large ... anti-establishment ... movement that was very well represented by music, and all the arts. The main problem with it, is that today, for many and whatever reasons, we don't care about any of it, except if it was famous or not or got the "recognition" that ... blah and blah and blah ... and here we are ... trying to give those folks the recognition 40 years later ... and while I can be a moron that folks hate here, I will say that the secret is NOT ignoring the music of the day ... which many folks are doing by saying that today's music is better (or worse) than yesterday ... it will never be true ... but it is different and I must give Mike credit for his wonderful work with a lot of DT's music ... no doubt about it ... but try getting a DT fan to sit through a couple of albums and look at the drumming that Mani does in "Dance of the Flames" or "Kanguru" ... and it's not gonna happen ... because a lot of those folks are stuck on a "style" ... not on the music itself ... and that is the likely discussion we should be having ...
But time never was when musicians were not there and good or better than anyone else ... it's all relative and the comparisons more often than not is between Apples and Oranges, and Syd already told us about that all we needed to know! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: March 06 2012 at 12:46
| I'd rather have things sound right then wrong. Just an opinion. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 08 2012 at 10:48
With one difficult result.
Things sounding "right" becomes an individual thing, or an academic design and form ... and the minute you do that the music is dead and will have a difficult time bringing up new things and showing you new bands and new music's.
On that day, we're going to need another 60's with lots of doobies and what not, and folks telling the music scene to take a hike ... so new music can be shown and seen. On that day we hope that the Overlords are not the ones telling us how to behave and what to listen to ... and not be ourselves!
On that day, you only have the arts to help you ... because if the movies are right, you already know about all the brainwashing! And I'm not sure a metronome is the best helper you can ever have -- to learn music maybe! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 08 2012 at 11:18
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Friends don't let '70's drummers drum into your modern ears.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: March 08 2012 at 14:15
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I'd rather have things sound wrong than right. Just an opinion.
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