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Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Posted: January 16 2015 at 19:56
Polymorphia wrote:
From the artist standpoint: All of this said, art is not subjective, but rather relative. Music is like a math but with problems far too complex for us to solve on brain-power alone. All of Aretha Franklin's crescendos and her vibrato and her accent etc. are physical phenomena that, at least to human ear, can happen again and could theoretically be planned, but when she sang a song right it wasn't because all of those physical phenomena were consciously rendered, although some of them may have been; it was because it felt right, whether it was a little out of tune or offbeat or perfectly in tune.
That right there - how is this not subjective?
Polymorphia wrote:
The way to write music isn't subjective, but relative to you. If you feel you don't want to write lyrics that I generally respect, you will never write those kinds of lyrics the right way except by chance.
Given this scenario, what is the right way? And where is the element of chance there?
Joined: July 28 2010
Location: Funky Town
Status: Offline
Points: 12794
Posted: January 16 2015 at 20:02
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Luna wrote:
Isn't being original relative? If you were to go back to the 19th century and play Beatles songs, you'd shake up the music scene for centuries to come. Doing that today: not so much.
We are living in 2010's, so forget about the past or how people in 19th century would be blown away by The Beatles' songs. Nowadays it's hard to come up with anything that wasn't tried before.
Except it isn't. We simply limit ourselves to genres and styles then realize that many things have been done before. Music has existed for thousands of years and people have never had a problem making original-sounding things. I seriously doubt that this is a 2010's issue.
Luna wrote:
Likewise, boundaries are also relative. What boundaries are we pushing here? Making unique sounding music?
Doesn't matter. As long as you are doing something that wasn't tried before, ... doesn't matter.
Don't have a response to this.
Luna wrote:
... if you're an established experimental artist, perhaps having balls would be releasing something conventional and poppy.
What is so ballsy about moving on to mainstream? That's playing safe, not being ballsy.
Except it's not. An audience is significant in this example. Such a dramatic change would certainly upset the image of the artist and how they're seen. Even excluding the audience, it's ballsy to flip your style upside-down.
Luna wrote:
Having balls means several different things, depending on where you are as an artist. If you're a well known pop star, for example, having balls would be releasing some sort of non-conventional, experimental album. However, if you're an established experimental artist, perhaps having balls would be releasing something conventional and poppy. However, without this context, ... .
... which context?
The context of the artist being well-established in the experimental genre.
Luna wrote:
Writing intelligent lyrics I would also say is relative since intelligence is relative. Not everyone in the audience has the same capacity for artistic or literary appreciation.
This isn't about the audience's intelligence. This is about the intelligence of the artist. What is so relative there?
Because the intelligence of the artist only exists in the mind of the audience. If you want to write intelligent lyrics, write lyrics that you find intelligent. But some people will find what you may see as "unintelligent" lyrics intelligent or the other way around.
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Posted: January 16 2015 at 20:22
Luna wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Luna wrote:
Isn't being original relative? If you were to go back to the 19th century and play Beatles songs, you'd shake up the music scene for centuries to come. Doing that today: not so much.
We are living in 2010's, so forget about the past or how people in 19th century would be blown away by The Beatles' songs. Nowadays it's hard to come up with anything that wasn't tried before.
Except it isn't. We simply limit ourselves to genres and styles then realize that many things have been done before. Music has existed for thousands of years and people have never had a problem making original-sounding things.
Maybe until now ... or maybe even the early 90's. At some point, we've stopped actually exploring ideas.
Luna wrote:
I seriously doubt that this is a 2010's issue.
I really think it is. Again, at some point we've stopped trying. You have a musical idea, a sound with a set of characteristics, ... why can't it be labelled?
Luna wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Luna wrote:
... if you're an established experimental artist, perhaps having balls would be releasing something conventional and poppy.
What is so ballsy about moving on to mainstream? That's playing safe, not being ballsy.
Except it's not. An audience is significant in this example. Such a dramatic change would certainly upset the image of the artist and how they're seen. Even excluding the audience, it's ballsy to flip your style upside-down.
Not all audience is significant. Besides, what is so ballsy about the idea itself of flipping your style upside-down? Who can perceive that as ballsy?
Luna wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Luna wrote:
Writing intelligent lyrics I would also say is relative since intelligence is relative. Not everyone in the audience has the same capacity for artistic or literary appreciation.
This isn't about the audience's intelligence. This is about the intelligence of the artist. What is so relative there?
Because the intelligence of the artist only exists in the mind of the audience. If you want to write intelligent lyrics, write lyrics that you find intelligent. But some people will find what you may see as "unintelligent" lyrics intelligent or the other way around.
Then we are talking about some mis-informed/mis-educated audience. It's the intellectual resourcefulness and the ability to rationalize (that's how I break down intelligence) of the artist that count, don't they?
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
Posted: January 16 2015 at 21:32
On the topic of innovation:
1. It is happening, but not so much in rock music. Moreso in electronic music.
2. Rock music used to be at the frontier of technology; now electronic is. Electronic Dance Music originally evolved from rock, so I'd call this an achievement.
3. Innovation is not impossible in rock in the 2010s. It might be hard, but it has always been hard.
4. Innovation is prevented by 5 things:
a. The mentality that innovation is unachievable in the 2010s.
b. The pining for the "glory days" of rock'n'roll, typified by the endless revivals (post-punk, garage rock,psychedelic, etc.) from the late 90s and on, many of which have yielded at least one good band, but havebeen excessive to say the least.
c. The inability or unwillingness to get on board with any innovations of recent years.
d. The oppressive presence of genre-labels in the creative process with the internet. When really getdown to it, labels are insufficient especially because they
e. Most people fall short when they try. They knee-jerk to dissonance, but the edges of dissonance havealready been explored.
5. In reality, if you are creatively restless, completely open-minded, and, above all, expressing yourself, your music will develop its own character. That might not be anything new, per se at first, just something that feels like you and no one else, but as you branch out and experiment you might come across something surprising.
6. There IS a different kind of innovation that is happening, a revisionism in the revivals, which is why I don't dismiss them altogether. There will be a couple bands that add a unique songwriting sense to the music, or some more modern elements, or something that hasn't previously been applied to that genre. At the same time, there's only a handful of bands that are really doing anything radical and whether or not they are doing anything truly radical is still arguable, esp. because, again, rock music is no longer at the frontier of technology.
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
Posted: January 16 2015 at 22:52
I wrote a reply to your comment probably ten times Dayvenkirq, but I always ended up accidentally deleting it or going to another page (darn laptop pads). I'll write it later. *sigh*
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Posted: January 16 2015 at 23:37
In any case, ...
Polymorphia wrote:
On the topic of innovation:
1. It is happening, but not so much in rock music. Moreso in electronic music.
...
6. There IS a different kind of innovation that is happening, a revisionism in the revivals, which is why I don't dismiss them altogether. There will be a couple bands that add a unique songwriting sense to the music, or some more modern elements, or something that hasn't previously been applied to that genre. At the same time, there's only a handful of bands that are really doing anything radical and whether or not they are doing anything truly radical is still arguable, esp. because, again, rock music is no longer at the frontier of technology.
Armed with this explanation, can you give one example of a recent true innovation in electronic music?
Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
Posted: January 18 2015 at 11:54
Hey folks! Haven't been on in a while as I've been super busy playing with The Cinematic Orchestra and my own project Zeitgeist... Speaking of Zeitgeist, our album has officially been launched! Check it out if you fancy odd-timed contemporary jazz/prog with a heavy influence on improvisation. Or just music in general. I think you'll like it.
Joined: April 18 2013
Location: KOBAIA
Status: Offline
Points: 1420
Posted: January 19 2015 at 08:11
Hey folks, after years my album is almost finished. Check it out the current status of some of the tracks.
Thanks for all the musicians who worked with me, progarchives members great feedbacks at facebook and the unfergettable partnership from Voivod at the concert!!
AVant Garde/Post-Dodecaphonic/Technical/Jazz/Death/Electro/RIO
The main suites, Cult of Dementia and Shin Cybernatural, was recorded by myself all alone (Sax&otherbrass, Guitar&otherstrings, all keys, noises, vocals, real drum, electronic drum, computer, tapes programming, random instruments, etc...)
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
Posted: January 19 2015 at 09:36
^Will listen both you guys!
Dayvenkirq wrote:
In any case, ...
Polymorphia wrote:
On the topic of innovation:
1. It is happening, but not so much in rock music. Moreso in electronic music.
...
6. There IS a different kind of innovation that is happening, a revisionism in the revivals, which is why I don't dismiss them altogether. There will be a couple bands that add a unique songwriting sense to the music, or some more modern elements, or something that hasn't previously been applied to that genre. At the same time, there's only a handful of bands that are really doing anything radical and whether or not they are doing anything truly radical is still arguable, esp. because, again, rock music is no longer at the frontier of technology.
Armed with this explanation, can you give one example of a recent true innovation in electronic music?
Point 6 is supposed to refer to rock music only btw.
The innovation happening in electronic music has to do with the medium itself. People are mixing in organic elements in different ways or experimenting with creating very very sparse or very very dense recordings. Because it is a recorded medium there is less discrepancy between composition and recording, compositional ideas can be more easily executed. This is why I like to include recording in the creative process earlier on.
Joined: December 08 2014
Location: MA
Status: Offline
Points: 367
Posted: February 07 2015 at 13:23
EchoTail - I put your album Hold The Throne "away" for a while (I try to do this on purpose - to refresh my perspective) - listened to it again and was very suddenly hit by an impression. Do you remember the grungy '90s band called Bush? There's a likeness between you in parts that seemed to slap me in the face. I enjoy the music more after putting it away and hearing it again, which is a really good sign. I'll have a review up for you soon.
Joined: September 03 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 7
Posted: February 07 2015 at 16:23
Star_Song_Age_Less wrote:
EchoTail - I put your album Hold The Throne "away" for a while (I try to do this on purpose - to refresh my perspective) - listened to it again and was very suddenly hit by an impression. Do you remember the grungy '90s band called Bush? There's a likeness between you in parts that seemed to slap me in the face. I enjoy the music more after putting it away and hearing it again, which is a really good sign. I'll have a review up for you soon.
Awesome, I have actually never heard of any songs from Bush so I should check them out if there are similarities! Looking forward to seeing your review!
Joined: December 08 2014
Location: MA
Status: Offline
Points: 367
Posted: February 07 2015 at 21:12
I just started on it. Yeah, Bush was pretty interesting, the 2nd album was packed tightly full of all these little hooks if I remember right. Then they lost my interest when album 3 got far too tame and unvarying. Haven't listened to them in a long time, but the impression was powerful. (Reminded me of Bush stuff I liked).
My own album is almost done. Of course would appreciate some reviews on here. I'd really consider it prog-related though. Some songs are definitely progressive but not all. I still need to wrap my head around the logistics of getting it available for people to hear, though.
Joined: December 08 2014
Location: MA
Status: Offline
Points: 367
Posted: February 09 2015 at 21:21
There's a bunch of new stuff on here that I haven't listened to yet - will post feedback tonight, hopefully.
I myself just started a soundcloud account, and tested it with an old mix of one of my songs. I love this mix... we changed the drums, though, and now need to re-adjust. Still, here it is. "The River Girl" on soundcloud.
Joined: December 08 2014
Location: MA
Status: Offline
Points: 367
Posted: February 09 2015 at 23:20
The Pessimist wrote:
Hey folks! Haven't been on in a while as I've been super busy playing with The Cinematic Orchestra and my own project Zeitgeist... Speaking of Zeitgeist, our album has officially been launched! Check it out if you fancy odd-timed contemporary jazz/prog with a heavy influence on improvisation. Or just music in general. I think you'll like it.
Just listened to it - nice - relaxing - super jazzy. I stink at jazz myself so any criticism I could provide would be amateurish and silly. However, I did enjoy it.
A long time ago, did you post some music on myspace? I could swear I've seen the name "Zeitgeist" before, and heard some music...
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
Posted: February 09 2015 at 23:55
I actually listened to Zeitgeist and forgot to answer back. Having heard all the tracks before, it was nice to see them in a finalized form.
I definitely liked how you guys play as a rhythm section and you can definitely hear elements of other modern music simply in the way you guys play. The hi-hat embellishments in "Haiku," the rhythmic bass in "Mosaic," the piano solos in all the tracks— some really nice stuff going on.
My main criticism is that, while I liked the songs individually, they all felt like much of the same as an album. A lot of the same textural ideas and tension devices were used in almost the exact same way for all the songs, which unified them a little too much.
There's another issue. The songs seem like they're supposed to build up in intensity, but, texturally, the instruments disperse tension. For instance, the heavy ride cymbal sounds great and very pretty at the beginning of Mosaic, but it fails to build the tension it seems you want to build in later sections. The heavy ride is used to make the music sound "cool" while your solos feel like they want to build up heat. The tones of the electric bass and the piano, too, are beautiful, but make for a lack of energy in some sections.
Joined: December 08 2014
Location: MA
Status: Offline
Points: 367
Posted: February 10 2015 at 01:08
VOTOMS wrote:
Hey folks, after years my album is almost finished. Check it out the current status of some of the tracks.
Thanks for all the musicians who worked with me, progarchives members great feedbacks at facebook and the unfergettable partnership from Voivod at the concert!!
AVant Garde/Post-Dodecaphonic/Technical/Jazz/Death/Electro/RIO
The main suites, Cult of Dementia and Shin Cybernatural, was recorded by myself all alone (Sax&otherbrass, Guitar&otherstrings, all keys, noises, vocals, real drum, electronic drum, computer, tapes programming, random instruments, etc...)
Is your music available elsewhere? I'm not comfortable actually downloading RAR files to my computer. Perhaps you could post some to Youtube with a private link? If not, that's okay... but I'm not going to download things I have to install.
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Polymorphia wrote:
Yeah, Bush was pretty interesting, the 2nd album was packed tightly full of all these little hooks if I remember right. Then they lost my interest when album 3 got far too tame and unvarying. Haven't listened to them in a long time, but the impression was powerful. (Reminded me of Bush stuff I liked).