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Topic ClosedWorldwide solidarity with Gaza

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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 06:25
^ well put Mr Cheese.

I've been mulling this thread over for the past few days, trying to put into words my opinions and thoughts on this subject. Regardless of cause or reason, I can find no justification for war, no justification for bombing civilians, no justification for killing of innocents and no justification for the killing of innocence. War resolves nothing - if there is a winner then there is a loser and not all those who lose are on the losing side. War never results in a peaceful conclusion, only one group gets what they want, and when that is won by sheer force alone it only leads to resentment and bitterness that will flare-up again and again. Like all keyboard pundits here I've not studied this in any depth or detail but I am aware of the history and background to the current conflict. It is a history that is as old as history itself and it will never be resolved by rockets and missiles just as it was never resolved with bows and arrows.

Australian comedian Adam Hills succinctly summed up some of what I intended to say last night on The Last Leg - using more-or-less the same language and metaphors [he said more than this but that is the only clip Channel 4 have released on You tube].

Play Nice or Go To Your Room.

A parent who sees their children squabbling doesn't pick sides: pleas of "they started it" fall on deaf-ears; both are in the wrong and are treated equally; both are punished equally - privileges are denied and they are both grounded.

Sure that is yet another trite over-simplification of a very difficult and complex set of issues, but so is war. Bombing the living daylights out of each other is a drastic over-simplification of any issue; just because it is "difficult" doesn't mean that the only solution is to hit your opponents with great big sticks. If it is difficult and complicated then you have to work harder at making a lasting peace, waging war is a cop-out, peace should not be the brief respite between consecutive wars and battles, it must be the end to war. War is not a continuation of politics, it is a failure of politics and politics in turn is a failure of humanity, politics are partisan, this is not a virtue. War is uncompromising, peace is compromise that does not try to resolve differences but simply accepts that they exist and finds ways to live with them.

This does not mean that we as outsiders and on-lookers should step-in and force the peace in the Middle East - it means we should not pick sides. We are not their parents even though we must accept some responsibility for the creation of the current conflict, but not for the history going back millennia that brought us to this point. 

If this was a purely religious war of muslim vs. jew (or jew vs christian or christian vs. muslim) then it is incumbent on all members of those religions through-out the world to see themselves in a parental-role rather than take sides as bickering siblings, because history has shown that their god is not going to intervene, nor would a god of peace take sides. If you claim to be the religion of peace then prove it - make peace, accept your differences and be united in what you share, condemn those who sully your religion in the name of your god. Don't make excuses.

Once we pick a side we become a part of the conflict, we become a part of the justification for the killing and the continuation of that killing; in picking sides we become culpable to all the atrocities that occur, to the innocent lives lost, to the destruction of homes, lives and livelihoods and to feeding the fear, resentment and hatred that entails.



Edited by Dean - August 02 2014 at 06:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 06:27
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

"War is merely the continuation of politics by other means."
-Carl von Clausewitz

It seems noble to want to just wish war away, but wishing war away successfully means that one group gets what they desire while another group does not.




Isn't that a tad too simplistic.  N Ireland for example - two groups to a large extent stopped fighting (not completely before I get shot down) and the majority got what they want which is to just get on with their lives. 



Politics ends when people are murdered under the pretext of 'lawful killing' as canvassing, influencing or controlling a corpse is a futile endeavour. Akamaisondufromage is correct that after years of seemingly unstemmable bloodshed, there was eventually a brokered peace in Northern Ireland (although it was not arrived at by official channels but required high ranking Westminster officials to covertly disobey Margaret Thatcher, leading catholic  clergy to defy the Catholic Church and Gerry Adams to convince the IRA that armed conflict would never succeed)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 06:50
I don't think it's a situation where there will be a winning and a losing side, although both sides might consider themselves to be in one of those sides. IMO the key to success here is compromise and encouraging peace step by step.

There is no reason why Palestinians in Gaza won't have the same thriving life as their fellow Palestinians in Israel, unfortunately they are ruled by a terror organization who believes war is the way of getting to peace or demands.

The moment they will vomit those organizations from them they will be on the road of making a better future for themselves.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 07:14
That would be an uncompromising peace since it is peace on your terms and not on mutually agreed terms. As I said, it's difficult and complicated so you must try harder to avoid conditions and demands that would prevent true compromise. No one said this will be easy so there are no easy or comfortable answers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 07:17
Originally posted by Sagichim Sagichim wrote:

I don't think it's a situation where there will be a winning and a losing side, although both sides might consider themselves to be in one of those sides. IMO the key to success here is compromise and encouraging peace step by step.

There is no reason why Palestinians in Gaza won't have the same thriving life as their fellow Palestinians in Israel, unfortunately they are ruled by a terror organization who believes war is the way of getting to peace or demands.

The moment they will vomit those organizations from them they will be on the road of making a better future for themselves.


The reason that (I think) both Akamaisondufromage and myself referenced the Northern Ireland conflict, is that a resolution will not come via official channels but from those avenues that both protagonists deem to be ultra vires. i.e. vouchsafed 'unflinching solidarity' merely creates a gridlock on the martyr express-lane to oblivion. If there is to be a credible lasting peace, it will be in spite of the diplomatic entreaties to same.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 07:47
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

That would be an uncompromising peace since it is peace on your terms and not on mutually agreed terms. As I said, it's difficult and complicated so you must try harder to avoid conditions and demands that would prevent true compromise. No one said this will be easy so there are no easy or comfortable answers.
Of course I was referring to a compromise on both sides, Israel too. That way both sides will be engaged in a peace process that already have a certain momentum. I have already stated in this thread that Israel should accept most if not all of Hamas demands, not because they will terrorize us if we won't but because those terms are actually logical. But as I said the other side also has a lot of work to do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 07:53
Originally posted by Sagichim Sagichim wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

That would be an uncompromising peace since it is peace on your terms and not on mutually agreed terms. As I said, it's difficult and complicated so you must try harder to avoid conditions and demands that would prevent true compromise. No one said this will be easy so there are no easy or comfortable answers.
Of course I was referring to a compromise on both sides, Israel too. That way both sides will be engaged in a peace process that already have a certain momentum. I have already stated in this thread that Israel should accept most if not all of Hamas demands, not because they will terrorize us if we won't but because those terms are actually logical. But as I said the other side also has a lot of work to do.


I'm not trying to be difficult here but given that you have just stated that: Israel should accept most if not all of Hamas demands because they are logical, where precisely do your objections begin to the delivery of that
sacrifice? Does your patriotism/solidarity trump avowed morality?


Edited by ExittheLemming - August 02 2014 at 08:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 08:08
Two opposing governments , one a democratically elected one and the other an armed militia. Just like with the IRA and the ANC, Hamas needs to demilitarize and govern its people accordingly. Fatah, to a certain extent has understood that principle. Hamas or Hezbollah, not quite! It behooves every modern society to reign in its extremists, do disarm them and guide them towards expressing their views in a political only forum. In my opinion, the Palestinians are shooting themselves in the foot by urging armed conflict and playing into Israeli hands. It should not be the sacrifice of Israeli soldiers to insure more moderate attitudes. This "Lets throw the Jews into the ocean" crap needs to cease permanently. Frankly, the hardest things to manage are the real simple ones. Boys just love their toys. Time for some responsible, educated and intelligent men to take over. I believe that is what Sagi is trying to express. 

Edited by tszirmay - August 02 2014 at 08:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 08:38
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Two opposing governments , one a democratically elected one and the other an armed militia. Just like with the IRA and the ANC, Hamas needs to demilitarize and govern its people accordingly. Fatah, to a certain extent has understood that principle. Hamas or Hezbollah, not quite! It behooves every modern society to reign in its extremists, do disarm them and guide them towards expressing their views in a political only forum. In my opinion, the Palestinians are shooting themselves in the foot by urging armed conflict and playing into Israeli hands. It should not be the sacrifice of Israeli soldiers to insure more moderate attitudes. This "Lets throw the Jews into the ocean" crap needs to cease permanently. Frankly, the hardest things to manage are the real simple ones. Boys just love their toys. Time for some responsible, educated and intelligent men to take over. I believe that is what Sagi is trying to express. 


That seems a reasonable  position certainly, but regrdless of the journeys to power that the opposing forces have taken to appropriate prevalence, does the statement: Israel should accept most if not all of Hamas demands because they are logical,(by Sagichm) make the argument of sovereignty over Israel an irredeemably spurious one?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 08:47
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Two opposing governments , one a democratically elected one and the other an armed militia. Just like with the IRA and the ANC, Hamas needs to demilitarize and govern its people accordingly. Fatah, to a certain extent has understood that principle. Hamas or Hezbollah, not quite! It behooves every modern society to reign in its extremists, do disarm them and guide them towards expressing their views in a political only forum. In my opinion, the Palestinians are shooting themselves in the foot by urging armed conflict and playing into Israeli hands. It should not be the sacrifice of Israeli soldiers to insure more moderate attitudes. This "Lets throw the Jews into the ocean" crap needs to cease permanently. Frankly, the hardest things to manage are the real simple ones. Boys just love their toys. Time for some responsible, educated and intelligent men to take over. I believe that is what Sagi is trying to express. 


That seems a reasonable  position certainly, but regrdless of the journeys to power that the opposing forces have taken to appropriate prevalence, does the statement: Israel should accept most if not all of Hamas demands because they are logical,(by Sagichm) make the argument of sovereignty over Israel an irredeemably spurious one?

Sagi also added to that quote , the following "But as I said the other side also has a lot of work to do". 
Morality= As per CNN live report" So a cease-fire is called, the Israelis stop immediately, Hamas doesnt give a hoot and keeps unleashing rockets . Israel responds and civilians get caught in the crossfire. But some reporting OMITS the word crossfire and the premise behind the actions/reactions. That is what I call propaganda , slicing and editing the truth in order to fit into an agenda. There are idiot extremists in Israel too but they are kept in check. In Gaza, its the other way around, the moderates are kept in check, with the extremists running the show. 
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2014 at 04:54
http://news.msn.com/world/israel-renews-gaza-shelling-30-dead

Smoke rises after an explosion in Gaza, August 2.

GAZA/JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Renewed Israeli shelling killed at least 30 people in Gaza on Sunday


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2014 at 06:26
Members of Neturei Karta join hundreds of Arab Americans to protest Israels military offensive in Gaza, outside the White House in Washington, DC, USA, 02 August 2014. EPA

http://www.vosizneias.com/174010/2014/08/02/washington-thousands-at-gaza-protest-outside-white-house-demonstrators-compares-netanyahu-to-hitler/
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Washington - Thousands of demonstrators waving Palestinian flags and dressed in the flag’s green, red, white and black colors filled a square outside the White House and marched around the nation’s capital to support ending violence in Gaza.

Demonstrators on Saturday carried signs including: “We stand with Gaza,” ‘‘Free Palestine Let Gaza Live!” and “Stop the Massacre of Gaza.” The group’s chants could be heard from the north lawn of the White House, but President Barack Obama was not at home.

According to AFP, many of the protesters voiced anger at Netanyahu, with one waving a banner that read “Netanyahu and Hitler are the same, the only difference is the name.”

Among the demonstrators was Tariq Abu Khdeir, the Palestinian-American teenager from Florida who was arrested, and he says beaten, by Israeli security forces.

A handful of ultra-Orthodox Jews dressed in their Shabbos garb from the anti-Zionist’s group Neturei Karta were among those in the demonstration.

An approximately 20-person group of Israel supporters also turned out, and the two groups exchanged shouts.







Edited by Svetonio - August 03 2014 at 09:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2014 at 09:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2014 at 13:12
I'm from Scotts-Irish ancestry.  I have no direct stake in this fight.  I stand with the underdogs...
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2014 at 13:15
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I'm from Scotts-Irish ancestry.  I have no direct stake in this fight.  I stand with the underdogs...

Its not a rugby contest ! Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2014 at 13:39
No it's not...Disapprove
Speaking as a US citizen we have given too much military aid to Israel.  We have religious right wing nut jobs that are hoping their exploitation of this situation will bring on the apocalypse and bring Jesus back...

Care to explain to me how if one side lobbing in a few missiles that kill no one one justify the mass murder of innocent civilians?

Intolerant right wing religious people drag us all down.  I will await anyone who cares to make the case otherwise.


Edited by Slartibartfast - August 03 2014 at 13:59
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2014 at 14:11
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

No it's not...Disapprove
Speaking as a US citizen we have given too much military aid to Israel.  We have religious right wing nut jobs that are hoping their exploitation of this situation will bring on the apocalypse and bring Jesus back...

Care to explain to me how if one side lobbing in a few missiles that kill no one one justify the mass murder of innocent civilians?

Intolerant right wing religious people drag us all down.  I will await anyone who cares to make the case otherwise.

As a US citizen, you seem to forget the disproportionate arms sales to Saudi Arabia, UAE as well as the many other nations around the world, a thriving business to say the least. Well, I am not a republican Messiah awaiter, but I did post two, rather long essays in this thread that are devoid of any politics or religious sides. Please take a look and get back to me then. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2014 at 14:58
I hate the sh*t storm that goes on there
I feel awful for ALL those involved
I hate how all us in the "west" stroke our egos and battle each other over how smart we are by breaking down the situation and treating it like an intellectual game (granted this always happens). 
I hate that its always "OMG Palestine/Hamas/Gaza (whatever you'd like) is the evil one, must support Israel at all costs" or "OMG Israel is the wrongdoer now!!" 
I do hate that the US gives so much military aid to Israel, as well as other countries... and that US foreign policy is just disgusting in general. 
I really hate how it's near impossible to find anything unbiased about

Basically, this whole mess is just dreadful. I pray it ends peacefully someday 


Edited by JJLehto - August 03 2014 at 14:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 04:47
UN Chief: Attack on UN school "criminal" and a "Gross violation of international law"

UN condemnation

Edited by Blacksword - August 04 2014 at 04:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 12:18
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

UN Chief: Attack on UN school "criminal" and a "Gross violation of international law"

UN condemnation

Maybe this is retribution for allowing the State of Palestine into the United Nations.
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