Worldwide solidarity with Gaza |
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Sagichim
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 29 2006 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 6632 |
Posted: July 30 2014 at 18:16 | |||
^ Seems pretty accurate, I'm surprised it's not 99%. The reason for that is that we've seen this movie before, we've been there already, a cease fire is another word for let's reschedule the war for next year. Without a significant progress towards peace or stopping terror acts everybody seems to agree on continuing until either is accomplished. I don't see it happening, I think a cease fire is close.
Btw Israel has agreed to all humanitarian cease fires till now, Hamas didn't. They are not interested in a cease fire just as much as we don't. |
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Adams Bolero
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 07 2009 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 679 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 00:00 | |||
So you defend the bombing of the school?! How can you ignore the deaths of innocent men, women and children who have nothing to do with Hamas. Look at the statistics. Over a thousand Palestinians dead, the majority innocent people. This is not a war on Hamas; this is a war on innocent men, women and children. The Palestinians are being butchered and the world, and prog archives, sigh indifferently. I have nothing against the people of Israel but the actions of your government is state sanctioned murder. You say you want to stop terrorist acts; you don't regard the bombing of schools and hospitals terrorists acts? If they were Israeli the world would be in uproar but the Palestinians are left to die. Even the UN has criticized Israel. What your government is doing is completely indefensible. Hamas rockets firing into Israel, that seem to do hardly any damage compare to Israel's, does not give Israel the right to randomly murder innocent men women and children. I can't even believe your going to reply defending their actions; how do you defend schools and hospitals being bombed and children being blown up playing on a beach?!
Edited by Adams Bolero - July 31 2014 at 00:03 |
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''Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal.''
- Albert Camus |
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Sagichim
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 29 2006 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 6632 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 01:07 | |||
Well as was already explained before, first of all civilians who hide ammunition for Hamas or digging tunnels out of their children's room or aiding Hamas in any way are an accomplice. If you're firing rockets out of civilians houses, hospitals, schools and mosques or use them as an ammunition bunker (which is the case here), you're putting all of you're surrounding in danger. People are being told before their houses are gonna be shelled, if you want to be there when it happens it's up to you. But don't expect me not to react if you're hiding behind innocent civilians, if you are an innocent civilian and you care for your family's life go to a different place. Thousands of Israeli civilians who lives close to the border also evacuated, I mean come on you're living in a war zone! Another thing is I don't agree that if your rockets this time didn't cause any damage then I shouldn't react, are you serious? You mean to tell me that if your house is gonna be threatened with missiles every day but nothing happens then your gonna be ok with it? I won't believe it for a second. I'm sure you haven't fully grasp or knew but Israel is under missiles attacks from Gaza for 14 years now, suicide bombings for 20 years, the north was under missiles for decades! And various terror attacks including kidnapping and murder. If you'll put together the number of these casualties you'll be shocked! People are calling it a "situation", no buddy it's a war! Are you familiar with any war where civilians weren't killed? Edit: And here's a proof for my explanation for 'why are there so many civilians killed?' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI&feature=youtu.be Edited by Sagichim - July 31 2014 at 01:09 |
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Adams Bolero
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 07 2009 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 679 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 01:26 | |||
But the civilians who fled their homes to UN schools and hospitals are also being bombed! You say they warn them to leave their homes; they flee their homes and Israel bomb the schools and hospital they flee to! Were they hiding ammunition? The damage done by Israeli rockets is completely disproportionate; if my home is being attacked by rockets I don't respond by randomly blowing up innocent men women and children who had nothing to do with it. You say its a war but the civilians being killed are nearly all Palestinian; there's no equal war here. There one's country using high caliber rockets killing thousands against a weak impoverished people firing weak missiles incapable of causing the damage Israeli rockets can cause. It's completely disproportionate and shows no respect for innocent people who have done nothing to Israel.
Edited by Adams Bolero - July 31 2014 at 01:28 |
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''Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal.''
- Albert Camus |
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: May 16 2009 Location: Blighty Status: Offline Points: 6797 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 01:38 | |||
You are saying that the UN school (that Israel was told about 15 times or so) was an ammunition bunker? So why haven't I heard this before anywhere else? I think you implied the same about the last UN School that israel bombed afterwards claiming it was an error. |
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Help me I'm falling!
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Sagichim
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 29 2006 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 6632 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 06:30 | |||
About two weeks ago UNRWA discovered a rockets storage in one of its schools and of course condemned this action saying it is endangering the neutrality of this place who now is the home for thousands of Palestinians. They then removed the rockets and returned them to Hamas like returning a lost wallet, Israel was pretty upset by this weird action. Now again UNRWA revealed another rockets storage in one of its schools, UNRWA's spokesman Chris Gunness and Samantha Power the United States ambassador to the United Nations, again condemned those actions saying once again this is endangering those civilians living there. Shortly after this Israel bombed that school or part of it, the exact details are not out yet. So these are not randomly bombing, and another thing you have to take into consideration is that when you are in the middle of a war mistakes also happen, you have to be ready for that, war is a very dynamic situation. And how did you come to the understanding Hamas missiles are weak?? We wouldn't bother having the Iron Dome system if they were so weak. You say that there's no respect for innocent people? Where's Hamas respect for innocent people?? Where's Hamas respect to his own people?? How come their actions are so understandable to you? Just take a look of what Egypt thinks of Hamas, this organization is causing nothing by suffer to their people, there is no way to win your freedom or achieving normal life by going to war, this dispute will only be worked out by talking and negotiating. The moment Hamas or Palestinians will understand that, they will have a shot at peace until then Israel should defend itself.
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 06:53 | |||
Guys I know this is happening as we speak and emotions run high, but I would like to throw a bone of peace into this very thread.
I said this before, although in a slightly different manner, but it is impossible to fathom how this conflict affects the people actually living there. Sagi does. Now I know him very well and consider him to be one of the kindest people I have spoken to on this board. I can't imagine having to live through this with a family, and you do Sagi - just like every other person down there, Israeli or Palestinian, doesn't matter. I despise all war, and think it's the lowest of low we can ever go as human beings. I am not rooting for anyone in this conflict because it would be immoral to me. I root for my friends, and like I said earlier, they are indeed residing on both sides of the fence. If we can't have any sense of peace in a thread about a war, how are they ever going to figure things out in real life? And 99% of the posters in here don't even live there. |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Sagichim
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 29 2006 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 6632 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 07:09 | |||
Thank you UN Dave for your words
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11401 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 08:29 | |||
For a more balanced point of view on the conflict as seen from an Israel point of view, I can recommend the newspaper Haaretz.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 08:35 | |||
I don't think any sane rational being would have any issue with those sentiments David but it is far from impossible to fathom how this conflict affects the people actually living there. Ask any extant member of the British generation who suffered the nightly blitzkrieg from the Germans during WW2 and they would be more than happy to provide a few salient pointers. (Similarly, without wishing to belittle the horrors eventuated by the events of 911, the UK, together with many other alliance partners, has seen it, dealt with it and moved on) No-one is calling into question Sagi's moral character here so the buttressing of the ad hominum defence is completely spurious. The only person in this entire thread who has even broached upon the pivotal crux of the matter at hand is Steve (Lazland) re his reference to a unanimous global antipathy to Israel being granted by the UN, sovereignty over what is, an area of North Africa that the Brits walked shamefully away from after failing to deliver a mandate bequeathed to them by the League of Nations to provide a homeland for the Jews. I don't have the answers that particular debate, but if you deem the parochial testimony of the likes of Sagi is somehow more credible than the scores of avowedly brilliant mediators tasked with bringing this conflict to resolution, then there is clearly no workable solution in sight. History has surely taught us by now that internecine divisions have to be solved externally. |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 11:30 | |||
Once again, the most complex issues are being bandied about
by internet ‘pundits’ who see everything in either black or white. Truth is the
world is a multi-colored affair and there are 100 shades of grey. Many people
post their slanted views based on emotion (nothing really wrong with that, in
essence) but history teaches you one incredible lesson= there are so many
layers to any event because circumstances, previous consequences, geography,
context, disinformation/propaganda and ugly base politics can roil the waters
to such an extent that its so much easier to keep it simple and thus
stupid. It’s not about YES human shields or NO human shields, it’s
about 2 very important issues. And please bear in mind that my 45 years of
study has proven only one thing = War begets war. It’s cyclical and unjust. I
choose to blame all the belligerents. One: strategy. Tunnels generally lead prisoners to freedom
(jails, penitentiaries, Berlin Wall etc..) but here they lead to the enemy !
Gaza is the most densely populated area in the world, a city-sized enclave,
surrounded by a very hostile Egypt (need we remind that Saudi Arabia, Jordan
and Egypt are no fans of Hamas because it’s a militarized, weapon-laden autocratic
political party) and the “Zionist enemy”. So the problem is that Gazans have
nowhere to evacuate to as the Mediterranean is not an option. Hamas has managed
twice to have the Israelis leave, yet continue to lob rockets and suicide
bombers at them. Give me a finger, I will take your arm. So Hamas knows it
cannot expect Israel to carpet bomb the city, like Dresden or Hiroshima because
1.8 million dead would be unacceptable to any human. They also know that since
Gazans cannot go anywhere, the civilians will pay the ultimate price for their
incarceration. A responsible civilized civil government would state” fine, we
stop rocketing, we stop fighting back, Israel go away”, as far as I know,
Israel has done that twice already. But Hamas is very clever as it knows it
will win the war of popular opinion, since it’s always the invader who is the
aggressor. Other empirical warrior nations in past history have invaded without
warning, have massacred without warning and retreated only with a ‘scorched
earth’ policy. The density of the
conflict zone is such that all forms of collateral damage are inevitable, it’s
like shooting fish in a barrel, and one bullet can hurt more than one person.
Gaza is not a wide open desert (like Irak), it’s urban warfare, the ugliest,
cruelest form of military conflict, where buildings collapse and civilians die.
The Israelis have laser –guided
equipment , verified by satellite as well as drones , designed to identify
enemy rocket or artillery firing positions and immediately (within 30 seconds
or less) laser-point direct return fire to an accuracy of a dozen feet. Hamas
is perfectly aware of this since its Hezbollah colleagues were victimized by
this technology in the past on the northern border. But a dozen feet means that
innocent bystanders sardine-canned into unlivable conditions, with no escape, will be killed. The Hamas rockets are random,
the Israeli return fire is not but it does cause horrible civilian casualties. Two: philosophy. There are essentially two kind of soldiers fighting
in any given conflict , the highly motivated and radicalized warrior who is
ready to die willingly for his cause , generally older (30s) and who has no
qualms about killing or being killed (in WW2 the Japanese kamikaze and the
German Waffen SS, current ISIS and
various world-wide militias) . Then you have the 19 to 20 year old who are
drafted into conflict and the initial bravado evaporates when the brains of a
friend gets splattered all over them. I have interviewed both and the second
ones are obligated to conduct themselves according to “rules of engagement”
(IDF’s charter does not, I repeat, does not encourage shooting of prisoners or
executing civilians). But war is a messy and cruel business, drafted young
soldiers are universally scared and do occasionally “shoot first and talk later”.
Truth is that, just like with all wars, both sides kill.
That is what soldiers do. Yes, Hamas does use human shields and Israeli
soldiers do shoot first and worry later. There is no such thing as clean war.
Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, Rotterdam, Leningrad, Warsaw, Budapest, Tokyo,
London, Coventry, Grozny the list is endless. Unfortunately always too late, human nature will eventually
kick in and it will end, both sides tired of the blood-letting. Its been like
this since the dawn of time. |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Sagichim
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 29 2006 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 6632 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 12:04 | |||
Always a pleasure Thomas.
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11401 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 13:21 | |||
The Huffington Post is by many considered as being a fairly reliable source of news and analysis. This article is interesting, at least for those who consider that newspaper to be a reliable source of news.
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: July 31 2014 at 19:20 | |||
"War is merely the continuation of politics by other means."
-Carl von Clausewitz It seems noble to want to just wish war away, but wishing war away successfully means that one group gets what they desire while another group does not. |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: August 01 2014 at 06:31 | |||
Seems kinda sadly ironic that the two posters at diametric loggerheads (Sagichim and Adams Bolero) both have Hendrix avatars (excuse while I kiss the sky/this guy? - Go figure)
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: August 01 2014 at 09:38 | |||
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Sagichim
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 29 2006 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 6632 |
Posted: August 01 2014 at 10:14 | |||
Hamas has breached another cease fire which was supposed to be the opportunity to discuss its terms and give its civilians a little time off. Hamas has no regard or respect for its people and continues to act between them.
Part of the world and especially most of the Arab nations already understand that Hamas has no place in a peaceful world. |
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KingCrInuYasha
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 26 2010 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1281 |
Posted: August 01 2014 at 10:25 | |||
Well... this escalated quickly.
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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator Retired Admin & Razor Guru Joined: February 02 2004 Location: South England Status: Offline Points: 14693 |
Posted: August 01 2014 at 10:37 | |||
Well apart from a couple of posts by Lazland & specifically tszirmay (plus one or 2 others), this thread has developed exactly as any other "Solidarity with (insert current polarised conflict situation here)" thread can do - keyboard warriors unite, you have nothing to lose but your ojectivity
I think I'll leave my last word to Willy Wonka: |
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: May 16 2009 Location: Blighty Status: Offline Points: 6797 |
Posted: August 01 2014 at 11:07 | |||
Isn't that a tad too simplistic. N Ireland for example - two groups to a large extent stopped fighting (not completely before I get shot down) and the majority got what they want which is to just get on with their lives. |
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Help me I'm falling!
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