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ProgMetaller2112 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2014 at 00:41
It's funny how this thread started during the same time I was taking a Women's Studies class
“War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.”

― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four



"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 04:22
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

they would legalize and tax the world oldest profession maybe there would be no austerity measures ;) it's like bootlegging you cannot stop it, might as well control and tax it in my opinion.    


Correct me if I'm wrong but is not the world's oldest profession something that happened after farming, hunting, and soldiering (possibly). Which may make it the 3rd or 4th oldest profession.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 04:51
^ maybe because farming, hunting and fighting were necessary for survival, and only became professions later
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 04:56
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

they would legalize and tax the world oldest profession maybe there would be no austerity measures ;) it's like bootlegging you cannot stop it, might as well control and tax it in my opinion.    


Correct me if I'm wrong but is not the world's oldest profession something that happened after farming, hunting, and soldiering (possibly). Which may make it the 3rd or 4th oldest profession.



Who knows? If Historians had been the oldest profession we'd know all this stuff without guessing.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 05:15
I say it had to have been back scratcher/gnat picker;  that's worth a charred rat in exchange, what say?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 05:19
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I say it had to have been back scratcher/gnat picker;  that's worth a charred rat in exchange, what say?

Certainly in primates mutual grooming and lice-picking is consensual, bartering by sexual favours less so, which suggests that the oldest profession is probably related to hairdressing. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 05:22
I knew it--  all you need for history is a good imagination.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 05:32
Actually all I meant was that serving one's most immediate requirements - eating for example, gets, got, priority. In the olden days the hunting and fishing was the means to an end. The profession of survival, then prosperity.

Also could not resist the chance to dispel a cliche if possible. Wink




Edited by uduwudu - March 30 2014 at 05:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 08:15
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

they would legalize and tax the world oldest profession maybe there would be no austerity measures ;) it's like bootlegging you cannot stop it, might as well control and tax it in my opinion.    


Correct me if I'm wrong but is not the world's oldest profession something that happened after farming, hunting, and soldiering (possibly). Which may make it the 3rd or 4th oldest profession.


Uduwudu,
Prostitution is sometimes also referred to as "the world's oldest profession". The originator of the phrase “the world’s oldest profession” was Rudyard Kipling. His 1888 story about a prostitute begins, “Lalun is a member of the most ancient profession in the world.” By 1932 authors were naming their books after the idea, including physician William Josephus Robinson’s social and medical assessment The Oldest Profession in the World: Prostitution from 1929 and Joseph McCabe’s history The Story of the World’s Oldest Profession in 1932.

There are plenty of professions which pre-date prostitution, like hunter-gatherer, farmer, tool-maker, but not everyone can agree on what's the definition of profession.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 09:45
Prostitution is not a profession, it's an oppression.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 10:08
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I treat everyone equally.
 
I treat girls the same way I treat guys.


These are two different statements in my book.

On the first one: I think I do as you say.

On the second: I don't and you could, I guess, blame my culture and the way I was brought up; that is I tend to treat ladies a bit more "gently" (i.e. things like open the door to let a lady go through first etc). That is not to say I would treat fellow men badly but you get the picture.

"Equally" does not mean "the same way" (yes I know I am picking on words here). I believe men and women are (and should be) different and at the same time equal and be treated equally.

Once I told a colleague I would not swear in front of a lady (vs. when being among a bunch of guys) and he blamed me as sexist... as I said, cultural differences, which I also respect.


Edited by aapatsos - March 30 2014 at 10:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 11:45
Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I treat everyone equally.
 
I treat girls the same way I treat guys.


These are two different statements in my book.

On the first one: I think I do as you say.

On the second: I don't and you could, I guess, blame my culture and the way I was brought up; that is I tend to treat ladies a bit more "gently". That is not to say I would treat fellow men badly but you get the picture.

"Equally" does not mean "the same way" (yes I know I am picking on words here). I believe men and women are (and should be) different and at the same time equal and be treated equally.

I agree entirely. 

treat everyone equally. Everyone is equally responsible, capable, culpable, blameable, chastisable, praisable and every other -able except perhaps approachable.

The gender opposite of 'girls' is not 'guys', it's boys, the gender opposite of 'guys' (according Hollywood) is 'dolls' or (gulp) 'gals' - as calling a girl a 'doll' or a 'gal' could be construed as being sexist I would posit that 'guys' is an equally sexist terminology, especially when clumsily applied in a neutral-gender usage. How easily "hey you guys" when used in a mixed gender group can be viewed in the same regard as "she's one of the guys'.
 
And while I don't go around slapping boys or girls on the arse and calling them sweetheart, I certainly do not treat girls the same way I treat boys because they are not the same physically, emotionally or in maturity and they do not react in the same way to compliments or criticism. For example "Your hair looks nice" can be said male to female, female to female and female to male, but only male to male in certain circumstances and certainly not in the communal shower in the men's changing room at the gym...

...speaking of which, does treating boys and girls (and/or men and women) equally mean I can use the ladies changing rooms at the gym, the ladies toilet at the shopping mall or the ladies fitting rooms in the department store? Or is that just too perverted to be treated as equality?

Not being sexist is a minefield where other people set the rules and standards and expect other people to automatically know what those new rules and standards are. Girls and women who want to be treated equally should wear a badge granting us mere men that privilege and the next time I need someone to remove a spider from the bedroom ceiling, change a tyre, unblock the toilet or shin up a ladder to fix a leaking gutter I'll know who to call.

Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

 
Once I told a colleague I would not swear in front of a lady (vs. when being among a bunch of guys) and he blamed me as sexist... as I said, cultural differences, which I also respect.
...which links in with Alex's comment earlier:
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:

. As my partner quite rightly says "I'm happy for a man to hold the door open for me, providing that he also does it for everyone other man and woman as well".
I think your partner may be missing the point, but never mind.

Whether it is cultural differences, being polite, or gallantry and etiquette from a different era, watching your language in mixed company and hold a door open for a woman is not sexism. To claim that it is is just hysterical nonsense (a "Wink" for those who know the etymology of hysteria).  

...and anyone who does not thank me for holding the door open for them is simply impolite, ignorant, arrogant and rude, regardless of their gender or gender-orientation.

As soon as we allow those cultural differences to slide we are on the slippery slope to an uncaring and uncivilised society where being ignorant and rude is the norm. Politeness, gallantry and chivalry are not negative traits that we should exorcise in the name of feminism just because some well-meaning feminist believes that holding the door open is benign oppression, or benevolent sexism, with the implication that women are too weak to open a door themselves. One does have to wonder at how low an opinion you would have to hold of yourself and your fellow humans to regard an act of being polite as being so judgemental. I've seen women open doors all by themselves thousands of times, they seem more than capable to me - whoever invented doors and hinges, and whoever fitted them into the door-frames so that they were perfectly balanced and swung freely should be congratulated on making such a means of egress so efficiently that they can be operated easily by either gender - hell, I've seen YouTube video's where cats and small children can open doors, though to be fair, those are often with amusing consequences - I must remember to ask my cat if he feels oppressed by my benevolent catism when I open the door to let him in this evening. Now, if I were to insist that women should open the door for me at all times then that would be sexism, if I were to approach a door then summon the nearest female to open it for me then that would be wrong (and back in the day I have see women do this to men), but if a woman or a man should reach the door fractionally before me then sure, they can hold it open and I certainly will not feel oppressed or emasculated.


It leads to the hypothetical scenario of what happens when a woman holds the door open for a woman of equal stature - is there an impasse where neither will cross the threshold ("No, after you","No, after you" ad infinitum)? 

Similarly do I give up my seat on the bus to a pregnant woman because she is a woman or because she is pregnant? Politeness does not discern a difference here, do I first ask her if she is pregnant or just fat?


If we have reached the point in attaining equality of the sexes where courteous behaviour in the form of chivalry (defined as 'courteous behaviour, especially that of a man towards women') has become the sticking-point then perhaps it is the point at which we need to reassess the definitions of sexism and sexist behaviour. 


Edited by Dean - March 30 2014 at 11:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 12:10
Yeah, I agree that that sounds rather far-fetched if even mere courtesy is equated to sexism.  With that said, I don't practice most of these chivalrous behaviours anymore.  I am looking at it the other way.  If women want to be treated as equals, they cannot look for any entitlements over and above some courtesies that simply acknowledge their physical frailties.  So, for instance, I don't hold the door open for women specifically.  I might sometimes do that for a visitor and that would be regardless of gender.  In my country, seats are reserved for women in buses and there are ladies coaches in trains as well.  So I don't offer my seat unless (a) they are pregnant or (b) they are old (which again I would do for any old person and not just women specifically).  I never ever cuss or physically assault anyone except in retaliation so again, no women-specific thing going on there.  But no ladies first stuff, no passing over my spot in the queue for a woman.  If you can travel hours in crowded trains to get to work, you can stand in a queue, it won't hurt, period.

Edited by rogerthat - March 30 2014 at 12:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 12:54
^^ I enjoyed reading that Dean.

Interesting point about the use of "guys" (again was only thinking "in my book").

Hysteria: strangely enough, we use υστερώ for "being inferior" or "lack" something as opposed to someone else but it comes from υστέρα - womb in ancient Greek - presumably because of its position. Interesting the world of words' meaning (you ''guys'' out there LOL).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 14:17
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Yeah, I agree that that sounds rather far-fetched if even mere courtesy is equated to sexism.  With that said, I don't practice most of these chivalrous behaviours anymore.  I am looking at it the other way.  If women want to be treated as equals, they cannot look for any entitlements over and above some courtesies that simply acknowledge their physical frailties.  So, for instance, I don't hold the door open for women specifically.  I might sometimes do that for a visitor and that would be regardless of gender.  In my country, seats are reserved for women in buses and there are ladies coaches in trains as well.  So I don't offer my seat unless (a) they are pregnant or (b) they are old (which again I would do for any old person and not just women specifically).  I never ever cuss or physically assault anyone except in retaliation so again, no women-specific thing going on there.  But no ladies first stuff, no passing over my spot in the queue for a woman.  If you can travel hours in crowded trains to get to work, you can stand in a queue, it won't hurt, period.
Interesting perspective. While we live in an externally patriarchal society, once you cross the family threshold you enter a predominantly matriarchal domain where women hold dominion over daily-life (and from my admittedly very limited contact with the Indian community in the UK this appears as true to an Indian household as it does to an English one). It was not my dad who insisted that I open doors or give up my seat on the bus but my mum (, her sisters and my grandmother), it was made very clear that this basic courtesy was a measure of respect. So I tend to agree with your comment of entitlements over and above, because certainly growing up in the 1960s and 70s it was the women who saw this as an entitlement.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2014 at 20:10
^^^  Yup.  The perspective that Toaster Mantis quoted is pretty unique.  I don't know how many women over there actually believe that because in my experience, a lot of women want to have the cake and eat it too (sorry to put it that way).  They like to take advantage of their gender and jump queues or get away with bad form generally just because as women they ought to be excused and also demand equal treatment in shrill rhetoric.   Yeah, exactly, I was never told about ladies first or leaving the door open by my parents either.  It was communicated through social cues that this was the done thing.  Except I have stopped doing it.  And strangely enough, I have never received any glares or grumbles from women for that so maybe they know deep down they shouldn't be expecting these things anymore but are only too happy to take advantage of it if men are prepared to offer it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2014 at 00:03
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

I think we should retire the word "feminism". It has too many negative connotations at it has been warped by radical feminists. I used to call myself a feminist because I thought the movement was about gender equality. Now, I mostly think it's about hating men and ridiculing any debate about gender differences.

See this infuriating subreddit for more: http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction
Stonebeard you are a girl? Shocked Wow yay Stonebird so am I Big smile all jokes aside, I think you are so right. Approve hugs Hug
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2014 at 00:08
Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I treat everyone equally.
 
I treat girls the same way I treat guys.


These are two different statements in my book.

On the first one: I think I do as you say.

On the second: I don't and you could, I guess, blame my culture and the way I was brought up; that is I tend to treat ladies a bit more "gently" (i.e. things like open the door to let a lady go through first etc). That is not to say I would treat fellow men badly but you get the picture.

"Equally" does not mean "the same way" (yes I know I am picking on words here). I believe men and women are (and should be) different and at the same time equal and be treated equally.

Once I told a colleague I would not swear in front of a lady (vs. when being among a bunch of guys) and he blamed me as sexist... as I said, cultural differences, which I also respect.
Aapatsos, I think what you described above has to do more about being well educated and being a true gentleman (this is most appealing and charming to women) and quite the contrary of being a macho chauvinist ClapThumbs UpHeart hugs to you Hug
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2014 at 00:20
Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Prostitution is not a profession, it's an oppression.
Hello Silverpot,
This depends on the circumstances why would one be a prostitute, it's a grey line, yes those who heavily depend on drugs I too think they are being misused and this is sad, however the minority who use their body and stunning good looks to  make a lot of money, pay for their college/and doctorate degrees and manage to pay their student loans within record time, become model citizens etc. I think they are clever to make the most of what they have, I  didn't do that besides for being shy although having a big mouth mainly it's for the simple fact that I did not have the need to do that plus I also do not have long legs Big smileWink 
To say that in their case it's an oppression I think it's a misconceived idea/view to be honest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2014 at 00:26
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Prostitution is not a profession, it's an oppression.
Hello Silverpot,
This depends on the circumstances why would one be a prostitute, it's a grey line, yes those who heavily depend on drugs I too think they are being misused and this is sad, however the minority who use their body and stunning good looks to  make a lot of money, pay for their college/and doctorate degrees and manage to pay their student loans within record time, become model citizens etc. I think they are clever to make the most of what they have, I  didn't do that besides for being shy although having a big mouth mainly it's for the simple fact that I did not have the need to do that plus I also do not have long legs Big smileWink 
To say that in their case it's an oppression I think it's a misconceived idea/view to be honest.
Many women use their looks to take advantage of men, i.e. young good looking strippers in Alaska make a massive amount of money taking advantage of lonely hard working men this too is a sad story really. The more I think of life, I feel bad because people sometimes men or women suffer the bad end of the stick.
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