Feminism
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Topic: Feminism
Posted By: The Pessimist
Subject: Feminism
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 12:26
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Thought I'd get the ball of this important topic rolling with this video. It's very good, and very eye-opening, I'd recommend a watch. For the record no sexist comments will be tolerated in this thread - a little bit presumptuous of me on the admins, but I'm sure they agree. This is a thread to discuss feminism, it's importance and the prevalence of gender equality in society, local or global. Also feel free to share your own experiences. Chat away! ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Replies:
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 12:46
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I think we should retire the word "feminism". It has too many negative connotations at it has been warped by radical feminists. I used to call myself a feminist because I thought the movement was about gender equality. Now, I mostly think it's about hating men and ridiculing any debate about gender differences. See this infuriating subreddit for more: http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction" rel="nofollow - http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 12:49
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Feminism is like marxism, one of the stupidest ideologies ever. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 12:51
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">  The greatest record label of all time! |
LSDisease wrote:Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 12:56
One word: equality ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 12:58
Agreed. I will not call myself a feminist but I am a proponent of gender equality. And the video was spot-on; despite enormous changes in legislation and a huge push in certain segments of modern culture to combat sexism, it is still a terrible problem. And to be honest, I think pornography is one of the major factors in the continuing prevalence of sexism (although the problem definitely goes deeper than that). ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 13:00
This is how I feel as well, and this will likely be my lone contribution to this thread (so I don't have to read whatever backward-ass thing somebody will inevitably post later). |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 13:01
The kinds of things she was describing in the video are really off-putting, especially because I've never noticed anything that blatant. I think the a lot of guys joke around with women as we do with our guy friends (which, when it comes to sexuality, can get off-color pretty fast). But sexual assault and really lewd comments out of nowhere. Yikes. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 13:03
What do you mean by feminism? This brings up the point stonebeard addressed earlier. Are you talking about the extreme "there is absolutely no difference between the sexes and all women should be lesbians" militant philosophy, or are you referring to the kind of gender equality advocacy in the video? If the former, I can see where you are coming from, although I don't think Marxism is a good comparison (Marxism was, at least originally, more about determinist economic theory than equality anyway). But if you're referring to the latter, you are off the ball...really off the ball...like Colin Kapernick at his worst off the ball. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 13:08
That's also my experience exactly. I think where you live and what your upbringing was like have a lot to do with it. I was raised in the suburbs, went to a tiny Christian school, and currently attend a private liberal arts university that is one of the most tolerant places I have ever been. I haven't witnessed much of this kind of abuse. But despite my experience to the contrary the experiences of thousands of others confirms the problem. We really do live in different worlds sometimes. That's one reason I am thankful for the internet and it's ability to connect people to others with completely different live experiences. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 13:09
There are differences and leave them be. I'm only trying to say that I am against all equality policies. People are not equal and will never be no matter what you do. I'm for freedom, equality is the enemy of freedom. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 13:16
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What do you mean by "equality policies?" That term could mean all sorts of different things. Laws against murder could be considered equality policies because they assume that everyone has an equal right not to be killed. By "not equal" do you mean unequal in ability/potential/possessions/etc. or unequal in worth and value? If you want to have a discussion you're going to have to define your terms.
------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 13:16
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So basically LSDisease - and I put this in the most polite way possible - you are a bigot who thinks that it is okay to deny people certain rights based on things that they have no control over (i.e. sexuality, gender, race, class). EDIT: Equality is not the enemy of freedom. If people are treated differently by a governing body or by other people based on aforementioned involuntary traits, then THAT is opposing freedom. And I really recommend that you read up on Marxism and Feminism before you slander them. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 13:51
Utterly nonsensical. There are many Marxist societies, past and present, which are also deeply mysoginist. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 14:30
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Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 14:47
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The best example of why to be a feminist is the comments on feminist articles and fourm posts
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 15:11
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Those that have always had it good are the ones who call any change ridiculous. -------------
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 16:07
muh privileges |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 17:14
Pretty much this. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 18:35
Right on the money. Also, feminism is not and has never been about "men-hating", and anyone who calls it that or acts by that philosophy is, to put it bluntly, wrong. It's about equal treatment for women on a social and legal scale. What the lady in the video I posted outlines very clearly is how women are definitely NOT treated equally anywhere in the world, which, needless to say, is immoral. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 18:48
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Many movements whose intention was to struggle for someone's rights ended up with the persecution of everyone who disagreed with them. I.e. those who fought for equality became the ideologists of oppression themselves. Femisim belongs just to this shameful category. ------------- This night wounds time. |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 18:49
It depends on how you define freedom. In any event, feminism has turned itself into a joke by this point. They've cried wolf so many times that when an actual threat does appear, nobody will take them seriously.
------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 18:51
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I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to hear 40-50 y/o British men's opinions on feminism ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 19:30
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Call it what you will, i am all for women having as much rights as men. anybody remember the cool early 1980s song that puts part of that simply- "Women around the world at work, women around the world at work, women around the world at work- Working, working!" |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 19:35
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My opinion is that i haven't seen any evidence that women are more inferior to men then men are to women. A good person is a good person, a bad person is a bad person, gender does not define that ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 19:56
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: AlexDOM
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 21:31
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. And to be honest, I think pornography is one of the major factors in the continuing prevalence of sexism (although the problem definitely goes deeper than that). [/QUOTE] Totally agree with you there. That is often overlooked or really blatantly ignored. |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 22:05
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i don't think it's pron it's self, but the industry, which is obviously deeply misogynistic ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 22:11
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smartpatrol: I agree that the industry itself is terrible regarding equal treatment, but I would say that porn in itself is misogynistic, as it would always be presenting the women involved as sexual props, which is just another way of saying that porn objectifies women by its very nature. No matter how "moral" the pornography is, the woman still serves no other purpose in the film other than for the audience's own sexual gratification. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 22:25
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^Exactly. Pornography, by its very nature, teachers those who watch it to view other people as sexual objects. It's not just misogynistic, its misanthropic, and deeply dehumanizing.
------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 22:28
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The problem isn't porn. The problem is people being dumb enough to be influenced by porn. I thought we've already been through the violent video games discussion... ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 22:48
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They are completely different. Porn is scientifically proven to be addictive. It is not a healthy sexual outlet for the sexually frustrated, it completely rewires your brain and causes the human mind to think completely differently about sexuality. Porn is more akin to cocaine than to Call of Duty.
------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 22:50
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Literally and figuratively any object or activity is scientifically proven to be addictive. Please give sources for your claims. Any. Once you've done that, explain how it is in any way different from other typical day-to-day addictions. ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 22:50
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 22:51
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There's nothing wrong with cocaine, porn, or call of duty. Different strokes for different folks, so to speak. Anyway, equality for all special privileges for none... yada yada -------------  Time always wins. |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 23:25
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3050060/" rel="nofollow - A little technical, but here's one . http://www.therapytoday.net/article/show/1665/" rel="nofollow - And here's a more accessible one written by a therapist . How is it different? Well 1. Despite the potential for anything to become addictive, some substances are simply more addictive (and harmfully so) than others. You could theoretically get addicted to say, playing golf but I don't think anyone is going to argue that golf is akin to crack. 2. Pornographic images stick in the mind for as long as the viewer lives, as opposed to other addictive substances that can be purged from the body. 3. Pornography addiction is especially harmful to relationships, as porn trains the brain to view humans as sexual objects and to idealize sexual experience in a way that makes it difficult to have a healthy sex life with an actual real-life partner. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: January 26 2014 at 23:36
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I think you have some mildly good points, but personally I think it helps a lot that I don't view porn as legitimate sex. It's a perversion, in the must literal sense of the word. Porn is to sex as an action movie is to an actual battlefield. Even I know that ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 01:21
That'll be me then... I'm all for gender equlity, but I tend to agree somewhat with Stonebeard. I think the sound philosophy of feminism has been hi-jacked in our popular culture to push a rather distorted and actually quite bigoted message. Note, in most sitcoms and comedy films it's the man who's the idiot and is the target of everyones ridicule, and the focus of the comedy. The women is always the sensible character; at least relatively so. This doesn't reflect reality of course, where men and women can be equally profoundly stupid and self interested. The problem with this 'harmless fun' poked continuously at men is that it undermines the value of the father figure in the family unit, until he becomes nothing more than the resident clown and scapegoat. One hundred years from now, men will be simpering, feminised wimps, sexually confused and performing very few roles of any worth in our society. Women will be in charge and ironically and tragically they will no longer resemble women as we know them. They will exhibt all the undesirable traits of ruthlessness and bigotry, once the domain of ambitious career obsessed males, in order to achieve the success they crave. Many women will choose not to have children, and many of those who do want children will choose to do so without involving a man. They will concieve artificially, so to avoid being lumbered with a man in their life, and having a mans influence on the childs upbringing. In those times having a male child will be deemed less desirable than having a girl, in the same way that it is currently the opposite in some cultures. Then the backlash will come, and men will be on the march (burning their boxer shorts?) the wheel will turn, and the cycle return to the start.. ^^^^ Maybe..  ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 02:39
Unless you happen to do all three at the same time whilst driving a large truck... then there could be an issue. ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 03:11
I wasn't talking about basic rights and the law that should protect us. I was talking about equality policies like gender equality programs, economic equality programs etc. They are all based on socialism and they don't work. They're also against freedom cos other people have to pay for that no matter if they want it or not. You can't just take other people's money to pay for something that's inefficient. It's not only unfair it's simply stupid. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 03:15
Martha & the Muffins, amirite? ------------- 
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Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 03:21
People should have certain rights because they're people, not males, females, black, white etc. I think it's a simple thing to understand isn't it? I was born in a country where marxism was an obligatory doctrine and I know how this s***t works. Not to mention that I've read Marx works. I can't believe there are still people on this planet that believe there's something good about that genocidal ideology. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 03:23
Even though I am someone outside this particular narrow demographic I am still however curious to hear what you mean by this comment. ------------- What? |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 03:27
Freedom is when people do what they want but are responsible for that and the state isn't a nanny to anybody. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 03:36
I'm not an expert on Marx, but is Marxism really a genocidal doctrine or is it the selective interpretation of Marx that leads some regimes to implement it in a genocidal way? In the same way that religious texts are often selectively interpreted and spun to allow for abuse of women, children and persecution of other religions, or non believers/infidels etc? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 03:44
Well let's see: Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and many more...even Hitler said he was inspired by Marx. So many examples of the selective interpretation? Maybe it's something wrong with the idea itself ? ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 03:53
Did Marx call for the rounding up and killing of people in their millions? Or did the folk you reference just have a desire for absolute control, and so piggy backed on a 'equality' philosophy to achieve it? I'm not defending Marx. As I said I don't know much about his ideas, but if either from the left or the right, totalitarianism is the same deal. With the left, the state will own you. With the right, private corporations will own you. The libertarian idea of being your own master and being in control of your own existence is becoming increasingly 'not cool' ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 04:08
Marx was a racist but it's not the point. The point is, he wanted new, better human beings that are designed to live in the society driven by collectivism. So if man's not perfect let's create a new, better man. It just can't work. World is for people not people for the world. Actually corporationism is NOT capitalism. Capitalism is when politics and business are separated from each other. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 04:47
I agree with your last sentence. There should be no such thing as "too big to fail" in capitalism. The fact that there is, indicates that capitalism in the form we know it has failed. Capitalism should be driven by the forces of competition and supply/demand. If governments selectively looks after big corporations by bailing them out and/or exempting them from taxation, then that makes the playing field uneven for smaller competitors and leads to monopolies/duopolies and an unfair centralisation of corporate power. If you're going to have that, then you may as well have Marxism in the market place and let government control everything. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 05:22
That's why I'm totally against corporationism same as I'm against marxism or any other form of socialism. Corporationism is a socialism for the rich. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 05:43
Me too, although I am a 51 year old UK male and also outwith such criteria. For what it's worth I found it curious that when we had a female Prime Minister in the UK for 11 years (Margaret Thatcher) she advocated precisely zero legislation that would improve women's prospects of success in society. When I asked the reasons for this amongst her supporters, they all replied that 'her barrenness' wanted to succeed on a man's terms, and would sanction no armistice on the sort of 'received excellence' we are led to believe is embodied by all successful males in the UK. This led to the value system that a materially successful douche-bag had more value than a materially unsuccessful moral individual. Perhaps that's rather simplistic but a level playing field cannot be accused of begetting climbing plants. ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 05:54
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Just mentioning the word really brings out the stupid people on this site. I'm not pointing any fingers. You know who you are...
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 06:05
You might need to remind us, old men forget.... -------------
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Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 06:48
 Thats a contradiction.What I meant to say is that the essence of Capitalism is to keep people down and without freedom ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 07:02
Not at all. If you got gender parity for example, you don't care about professional qualifications so you'll force an employer to employ more women only cos you think a company needs more women. It's not only against freedom of choice. It's simply stupid and inefficient. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 07:24
You are not getting what I meant to say. I said Capitalism in itself is inherently a system without freedom as it requires certain people to be kept down and without "freedom" to do as they like. Even though I believe in the concept that people who are physically able to work should not be lent a free hand they have to work for it and I also believe in the concept of meritocracy "best person for the job at all times" the term simply does not mean freedom. What many movements sought out to do is prove the concept of meritocracy and feminism was included in that(today I don't really take them as seriously). What is freedom? Freedom to do what ? to be at the mercy of an employer who really does not care for you or your needs? Most people work like pigs to become "free" and that in itself is not freedom. I'm sorry to tell you this but corporatism and capitalism are one and the same. You can't have one without the other' as that old Married with Children theme song once said. All employers care about is profit and if that means laying off workers they'll do it and that is what capitalism inherently is. You lay off a bunch of workers or lower their salaries or whatever to make money ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 07:29
| LSDisease the libertarian thread is over there |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 07:31
You're not right, it's corporationism not capitalism, there's been no capitalism in the world for at least 100 last years now. But if you prefer communism you can always move to North Korea. They really hate capitalism. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 07:36
I am not moving to North Korea. Where do you live? Just asking ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 07:39
Germany (former East) ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 07:44
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^^ Would you agree that the essence of Capitalism is to make money right? But what you don't get is that it is in the hands of private owners and not the ones who should own it, the workers.By the way Communism doesn't work. Socialism is Capitalism better realized
------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 07:51
The idea of equality is that everyone is treated equally regardless of race, colour, creed, gender. To imply that professional qualification's are disregarded in favour of equality is disingenuous because that would be in itself an inequality. Gender parity is simply equal access to education between genders, it is not about numerical parity of employment, or qualification or any other personal achievement measures. Equality in employment means parity on salary for doing the same job with the same qualification and the same experience to the same level of competence/expertise. It never means employing exactly 50% women. ------------- What? |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 08:02
It's in the hands of private owners and in the hands of workers but the most important thing is, it's in the hands of state and here's the problem. Low taxes can help both sides but an income tax, it's the root of all evil. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 08:05
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Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 08:07
In a Socialist economy it is in the hands of workers but in a Capitalist economy the workers don't have a say whatsoever and even less in the public works relations. In a Capitalist economy an employer can do away with you for profit even if you've worked your ass off am I right? Now how is that right? ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 08:10
Let the owners decide. It's their property right? So who do you want to decide? As for education,again, if all schools were private the owners would decide. I think it's fair. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 08:11
------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 08:15
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Actually socialism can work very well and Scandinavian countries with their social democracy is a very good example of it. I can't say how much Scandinavians are satisfied with their everyday life, but statistics clearly show that Scandinavian countries are amongst the most organized and conventient for living in the Europe, as well as in the world. ------------- This night wounds time. |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 08:17
"Socialist economy" can't work cos it's not based on the real economy (soulless numbers) just on expectations and dreams about equality, happiness of all manking and all that utopian b****t. World will never be perfect. The sooner we understand it the better for us. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 08:20
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^ Whatever, dude. You cling too heavily onto this whole Capitalist bull****. All Socialism is that it is Capitalism with a brain and heart for humanity rather than just profit. ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 08:45
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Okay, I never thought this would turn into a Socialists vs Capitalists debate. I think that there must be another thread on this site to discuss this, so kindly move to that respective thread please? A point brought up by our very own 40-50 year old British man Blacksword... I think the sound philosophy of feminism has been hi-jacked in our popular culture to push a rather distorted and actually quite bigoted message. The people who distort the message aren't to be taken note of. That is fundamental when understanding such an important movement as Feminism. Note, in most sitcoms and comedy films it's the man who's the idiot and is the target of everyones ridicule, and the focus of the comedy. The women is always the sensible character; at least relatively so. This doesn't reflect reality of course, where men and women can be equally profoundly stupid and self interested. Yes, isn't that gender inequality? That's not Feminism. It's the opposite of Feminism. Positive discrimination is just as harmful as negative discrimination, perhaps even more. The problem with this 'harmless fun' poked continuously at men is that it undermines the value of the father figure in the family unit, until he becomes nothing more than the resident clown and scapegoat. And what exactly is the "father figure"? Is it a position that no woman could ever achieve? What is it exactly? One hundred years from now, men will be simpering, feminised wimps, sexually confused and performing very few roles of any worth in our society. I doubt that very much. Hopefully, all men will be is a little bit more respectful to the rights of women. That, to me, makes them bigger and better men. Women will be in charge and ironically and tragically they will no longer resemble women as we know them. You mean the type driven meek and helpless by years of patriarchal oppression? Diddums. They will exhibit all the undesirable traits of ruthlessness and bigotry, once the domain of ambitious career obsessed males, in order to achieve the success they crave. Many women will choose not to have children, and many of those who do want children will choose to do so without involving a man. You sound very much like Enoch Powell, sorry. All your assumptions are a priori. They will concieve artificially, so to avoid being lumbered with a man in their life, and having a mans influence on the childs upbringing. You are undermining almost every woman's (95%) desire to love another man. My partner is one of the smartest people I know, and a feminist, and we love each other very much. She doesn't see me as inferior at all, and she's not bigoted towards men. In those times having a male child will be deemed less desirable than having a girl, in the same way that it is currently the opposite in some cultures. Where exactly is this information coming from? Then the backlash will come, and men will be on the march (burning their boxer shorts?) the wheel will turn, and the cycle return to the start.. I don't think this very likely. Partly because Feminism (and no organisation for that matter) is trying to achieve that. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 08:48
This. Really, I don't know why you keep insisting on rebutting a claim that no one in this thread is making. If the subject of feminist legislation comes up then by all means, argue against it. But right now you're just arguing for its own sake. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 08:50
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I think someone has a hyperbolic view of the culture impact of terrible sitcoms.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 09:00
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I think more correct view is that the femninist movement, has inspiration taken from past movement, but i don't think it is directly leads back to comunisme, a more crect herritage or influence is that it borrowed in the start, elements form the labour movments, they use similar skelletons (frames), but feminisme has develpd to indipendent life on its own. and labour movement and feminisme movement is two seperate entitis now. feminisme came to life as a result of labour unions, as woman started to meat and create worker unions and later developed them into feminist unions were female rights of equality status equal to males were the focuspoint, not just strictly labour union policis working hours, working age, relation between employer and worker. -------------  
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Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 09:09
Video Game Violence Pron •Causes immediate hormonal •Only effects one cerebrally reaction within the body, to which one often responds physically Whoops, switch those. Regardless of whether one entertains the said stimuli as reality, porn still causes a physical reaction that is not tempered by a person's superior IQ. The only way video game violence and porn could be comparable is if porn caused absolutely no hormonal reaction in a person, which, for you and I, probably isn't true.  |
Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 09:10
You ain't kidding, brother. That was one long overnight haul from Texarkana to Atlanta. ------------- Time always wins. |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 09:16
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i knew this thread would be a disaster
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 09:23
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Genesis and Yes threads only ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 09:54
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^Well you two guys aren't exactly helping either. For future purposes, and this goes for everybody interested in posting in here: please stick with the program. This is an already extremely sensitive area of discussion, and we certainly don't need folks dropping arbitrary parallels to communism vs capitalism/socialism whatever you wanna call it. If you dig talking politics, then by all means drop by this fine thread http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40226&PID=4912530#4912530" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40226&PID=4912530#4912530 If you're interested in something a little more specific - ie the carriage pulling the horse theory, then there's always the libertarian corner http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85372&PID=4931869#4931869" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85372&PID=4931869#4931869 That's about it - I trust we're all adults............
yeah well - even I didn't believe in that last bit.------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 10:06
I'm pessimistic and bitter. Nothing more, nothing less. ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 10:10
| Listening through the talk, there seems to be some mashing up of sexual harassment/abuse and gender equality? idk, I am a bit tired after a hectic workday so maybe it's my fault for not concentrating enough and missing some detail (but if so, please fill up the blanks for me, sorry?). Why I ask is the latter is a much broader issue and some aspects of it are easier to address. We could sensitise corporations to compensate two equally valuable employees the same, irrespective of their gender. We could address, gradually and over a long period of time albeit, the issue of parents not sending the girl child to school in many third world countries. We can push inch by inch for greater representation of women in many walks of life, particularly in the part that is walled by the proverbial glass ceiling. But after all this is done, I wonder would the issue of sexual harassment really have been addressed. Because THAT is not as simple as just telling men to grow some morals and shape up. As long as there are criminals, there will be molesters and rapists. What can be done to address the unequal power equation, physically, between men and women is the question and that is imo at the heart of sexual harassment. The men who harass women do so because they feel they are much stronger and can get away with it. I don't know that there's much that can really be done about it. There can be law enforcement after the fact but that would at best be a deterrent. It cannot eradicate it. Which means there is no way to PREVENT the shame and humiliation a woman somewhere in the planet is subjected to everyday if not every hour. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 10:10
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The problem here started when someone did the ridiculous thing of comparing feminism with marxism.... And to say that feminism in itself is bad because there's (granted) quite a few feminist bigots who have taken it to a level of hate and stupidity without comparison is like saying all people who have religious beliefs are idiots and bigots because the Westboro Church exists... -------------
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Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 10:20
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Read without prejudice http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/spyridon-mitsotakis/the-marxist-roots-of-feminism/" rel="nofollow - http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/spyridon-mitsotakis/the-marxist-roots-of-feminism/ ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 11:17
It is far from fair, if you think it is fair then you have a strange interpretation of the word "fair". Life isn't fair, but it is better to make it more fair than less fair. If schools were privately owned I would not have had the education I currently benefit from. That is a simple fact of economics and social status - by virtue of which parental unit I was born into would determine whether I had a University education or not, my parents lived from pay-cheque to pay-cheque, they could never afford to pay for my education. I'm not claiming that to be fair or unfair, it just "is a fact of life", the notion of "fair" is not a determining factor, I am grateful for a state education, and since I come from a time of student grants rather than student loans, I am grateful that it was free state education, and because of that I am happy to pay taxes to fund the education of this generation and the next. Fair is relative. ------------- What? |
Posted By: AlexDOM
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 11:19
| I was at a Bible study last night and the topic of Christian feminism was brought up. Don't know what it all entails, but interesting concept. Don't have a valid opinion on it since I do not know much about it. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 11:26
*said in Macho Man Randy Savage's voice* Edit: OOOoooooooh YYYYEEeeeeeeaaaaahhh. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 11:30
Life isn't fair and you won't change it. All attepmts to make it more fair create poverty and financial mess. Socialists do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them. "If schools were privately owned I would not have had the education" Milton Friedman once said "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch". Your parents payed for your education in taxes. That's how it works. And it's even worse cos normally you'd have to pay only the teachers. Now you also pay for all those ministers of education and other bureaucrats. So do you smell the difference? http://dict.pl/dict?word=bureaucrat&lang=PL" rel="nofollow - ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 12:19
You have a strange interpretation of the world "socialism" and an even stranger understanding of how it works. However nothing I can say will ever fix that. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 12:25
I just prefer not to use the term "feminism" for what I think because of the negative connotations it has attached to it due to the radical wing appropriating the term, because of my differences with many feminists in what I think about traditional gender roles, and because I don't like the etymological connotations of the word, I far prefer, when identifying my own beliefs, to say that I support equality, rather than using a word that etymologically if not literally means "woman-ist." I like to paint in broad strokes. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 12:25
I understand you're happy to pay higher taxes but it's your decision. Many people won't agree with you. But what you say, you want to force them to pay higher taxes? That's unfair. That's socialism. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 12:46
I do not say that I want to force anyone to pay higher taxes. It would be pretty cool if everybody paid the taxes that are due but that's never going to happen either. There is no perfect ideology, I do not advocate socialism nor do I advocate capitalism, we will never learn to stop vacillating between two extremes of unworkable ideologies so that's what we're destined to keep repeating ad infinitum. As I said before, unfair does not come into it, fair is relative. A fair system would be a system that maximised the personal "happiness" for the maximum number of people - and that's a pipe-dream in anyone's ideology. ------------- What? |
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 12:59
We will never find the perfect solution so there's no use in searching for that. People who desperately want everyone to be happy end up in mental hospitals or become dictators. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 13:06
??? So I guess the best solution would be to just let things be, so that, taking this back in time and in relation to this thread, women still couldn't vote, get paid way less than men for the same job, etc. Or, nowadays, only rich people should be able to get higher education so they could get even richer while not rich people are stuck without an education. So that's the whole idea??  You are not even saying "the state does not have to be the solution but the market will come up with answers to help the needy". No. That would be an actual idea. You are just saying that "life isn't fair and you won't change it" and that "ALL attempts to make it more fair create poverty"... ALL, so there are no exceptions, at any level... I don;t care what experience you had with the Stasi or whether your life under Honecker was terrible (which it probably was, nobody denies the disaster of the DDR and marxism-leninism) but to use that as an excuse to reject ANY attempt at reducing life's normal unfairness is way more than just ridiculous... -------------
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Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 13:16
"So I guess the best solution would be to just let things be " absolutely. Let the people be free and let 'em make mistakes. They will learn. If an option is a nanny state people will never learn. Because they'll constantly expect that all their problems will be solved by the government. ------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!" |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 13:39
"The people who distort the message aren't to be taken note of. That is fundamental when understanding such an important movement as Feminism" That's the problem. They ARE taken note of, and that's how feminism is interpreted by many; the woman is always right and the bloke looks like a d!ck. It really doesn't matter that that is an incorrect depiction of feminism. It's lost on people. You make many points, some I have sympathy with and I'm what I would call a true feminist rather than a media feminist. My dystopian vision of the future is just an extreme case fantasy, and probably wasn't to be taken entirely seriously, but you have to admit that feminism like religion is interpreted often in ways that suits the individuals outlook and agenda. For some women it's just an excuse to act like men. There was a time when women easily held the moral high ground on behaviour. You'd never see women half naked lying in the street, p!ssed out of their minds. That was always an idiot male thing, now - in the name of equality - it's commonplace. If that's what passes as feminism even in the minds of a significant minority of women, then that is a problem. You could argue that women who seek to be equal to men in this regard lack ambition..
When it comes to equal rights, equal pay and equal opportunities based on ability rather than gender is quite obviously a no brainer, and anyone who opposes that is an obvious bigot. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 13:41
Well... duh.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 13:41
So those who are born poor have to remain poor and those who are born rich can either remain rich or go poor (only to talk about wealth, there are many other instances of "unfairness"). So do you think that the market will provide options for those who start at a disadvantage? Is that what you say? Or are your views completely empty only limiting to "just let things be" as a principle? -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 13:45
Also, it has to be noticed that: 1,. Nobody with the exception of lunatics really wants everybody to be happy and expect this to be accomplished realistically. 2. Dictators have NEVER wanted "everybody to be happy" as their primary goal. They might have wanted "everybody to be ....... ", but "happiness" has never really been the goal of any dictator, maybe with some obscure exception.... Because if you think Saloth Sar, Joseph Djugashvili or Adolf really wanted "everyone just to be happy" you have done the worst reading of history in... history.
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 14:16
There is nobody on the planet who could legitimately mistake that site for an unbiased source |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 27 2014 at 14:28
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The tagline "Inside every liberal is a totalitarian screaming to get out." just screams objectivity.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |