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mogol View Drop Down
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Points: 42 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 03:40
I'm sorry to interfere ( and sorry in advance for my poor English), but doesn't anyone feel there is a problem with the whole system of evaluation/including new bands? Multiple teams judging only within a certain sun-genre, tossing non-standard bands from team to team, thus doing several times what might be done once. People in some teams seem to be overloaded with work (while others don't have anything to evaluate for months) and from their words this evaluation takes almost all of their time.
Watching this forum I frequently see that some bands don't get included because they just don't fit neither of subgenres, while in each team (as well as among ordinary users) there are people considering them definitly progressive. 

I dare suggest several ways to improve the situation:
1. Make one evaluation team which firstly is to decide if a band is prog or not, and only secondly vote for a subgenre. Thus there will be no double/triple evaluation, non-standard artists will get more chances to be evaluated correctly, and the amount of work for evaluation team members will be spread more equally.

2. Anybody can add a band. Since there were problems earlier with bio's and pictures, it can be stated in rules that a newly added band's page, which does not have these for e.g. one months may be deleted. In order to define band's genres, etc., users are proposed to assign tags while voting. Some of these are Prog/Not Prog. Thus artists, which have more 'Not Prog' than 'Prog' votes may be deleted. One or several most frequently mentioned tags get stated as band's (or album's) genre. For example - Symphonic (70%), Neo (20%), Prog Metal (10%). Evaluating each album will result in more precise definition of each album's genres. Thus changes in band' s style can be seen. 
Such system will be self correcting and require less work for moderators/admins. More users involvement will result in more statistically accurate results. To ensure more professionalism in evaluating process, some group of members may be given a multiplicator for their votes (just like in current voting system)
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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:12
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

We already have it, it's called "Unsigned Bands", we can rename that "Unsigned Bands and DIY Prog" if that makes it easier for you to understand.

What about not recommending bands that are not listed on Rate Your Music and All Music?

LOL I said the sub-genre. As e.g. Eclectic Prog.
'Unsigned bands' is the sub-forum.

Regard ignoring Rate Your Music(RYM), I mind you that RYM was welcomed here while ex-Admin Mr Alex ( harmonium.ro) was in the New Suggestions Team. So I'm a bit confused now.
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:24
Nothing to be confused about, Alex isn't here anymore - plus you are not reading that right. Dean is suggesting that you stop suggesting acts that AREN'T featured on RYM and Allmusic. So yeah, the exact obvious of what you expressed. Take into account what's featured on other sites, see if the band in question has any sort of internet presence outside of their bandcamp page. If not, then simply don't suggest the band.


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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:34
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Nothing to be confused about, Alex isn't here anymore - plus you are not reading that right. Dean is suggesting that you stop suggesting acts that AREN'T featured on RYM and Allmusic. So yeah, the exact obvious of what you expressed. Take into account what's featured on other sites, see if the band in question has any sort of internet presence outside of their bandcamp page. If not, then simply don't suggest the band.


I'm sorry because I'm not reading that carefully.
However, I'm confused more now - because there at RYM are a lot of unsigned bands.
Nevermind.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:36
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

We already have it, it's called "Unsigned Bands", we can rename that "Unsigned Bands and DIY Prog" if that makes it easier for you to understand.

What about not recommending bands that are not listed on Rate Your Music and All Music?

LOL I said the sub-genre. As e.g. Eclectic Prog.
'Unsigned bands' is the sub-forum.
So... has the penny dropped yet? ...has it finally sunk in? ...do you understand what we are saying? 
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:


Regard ignoring Rate Your Music(RYM), I mind you that RYM was welcomed here while ex-Admin Mr Alex ( harmonium.ro) was in the New Suggestions Team. So I'm a bit confused now.
You are reading it wrong, see David's post.
What?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:45
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Nothing to be confused about, Alex isn't here anymore - plus you are not reading that right. Dean is suggesting that you stop suggesting acts that AREN'T featured on RYM and Allmusic. So yeah, the exact obvious of what you expressed. Take into account what's featured on other sites, see if the band in question has any sort of internet presence outside of their bandcamp page. If not, then simply don't suggest the band.


I'm sorry because I'm not reading that carefully.
However, I'm confused more now - because there at RYM are a lot of unsigned bands.
Nevermind.
Not a lot, but a few. What there isn't is every Bandcamp wannabie. Use RYM and AllMusic as a filter.
What?
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:46
Originally posted by mogol mogol wrote:

I'm sorry to interfere ( and sorry in advance for my poor English), but doesn't anyone feel there is a problem with the whole system of evaluation/including new bands? Multiple teams judging only within a certain sun-genre, tossing non-standard bands from team to team, thus doing several times what might be done once. People in some teams seem to be overloaded with work (while others don't have anything to evaluate for months) and from their words this evaluation takes almost all of their time.
Watching this forum I frequently see that some bands don't get included because they just don't fit neither of subgenres, while in each team (as well as among ordinary users) there are people considering them definitly progressive. 

I dare suggest several ways to improve the situation:
1. Make one evaluation team which firstly is to decide if a band is prog or not, and only secondly vote for a subgenre. Thus there will be no double/triple evaluation, non-standard artists will get more chances to be evaluated correctly, and the amount of work for evaluation team members will be spread more equally.

2. Anybody can add a band. Since there were problems earlier with bio's and pictures, it can be stated in rules that a newly added band's page, which does not have these for e.g. one months may be deleted. In order to define band's genres, etc., users are proposed to assign tags while voting. Some of these are Prog/Not Prog. Thus artists, which have more 'Not Prog' than 'Prog' votes may be deleted. One or several most frequently mentioned tags get stated as band's (or album's) genre. For example - Symphonic (70%), Neo (20%), Prog Metal (10%). Evaluating each album will result in more precise definition of each album's genres. Thus changes in band' s style can be seen. 
Such system will be self correcting and require less work for moderators/admins. More users involvement will result in more statistically accurate results. To ensure more professionalism in evaluating process, some group of members may be given a multiplicator for their votes (just like in current voting system)


This is a very poor attempt at making an already flawed system even more impenetrable. I don't think PA is perfect, and nor should it be. We are "normal" ordinary people running this site, so naturally there are going to be flaws and things that can be improved on, sure. BUT exchanging one system for another system that is open to anyone, is ludicrous. 

1) A new team to sort out if something is prog - before the team in question decides if it's prog? Well this just shows you how little you follow the forum. Sorry for being so blunt, but one of the first things folks realise when they start posting on here, is that there are just as many thoughts on what constitutes prog, as there are posters. A new team would merely slow things down even more. What they may find prog will then often be rejected when it hits the proper team, because the team has other thoughts on prog. Then you have the same running-round-circles - now only with yet another team in the mix.

2) This idea is mad. Just let anybody add acts and then we can always go back with a big fat eraser? This is crazy - mostly because the only person on PA who's able to delete artists, is Max. 
I agree about multitagging, but that horse has been flogged to death by now. I do however not see multitagging as a solution in the eval process - mostly because collabs already are multitagging. People do communicate you know - they are able to talk to one another during these processes, and they do throw around 'tags'. Yep, even in the metal quarters, you'll see folks using words like 'folk', 'electronic' and 'RIO' when evaluating bands, which then means that they accumulate ideas of where the given artist can fit within our site (not only within their own little niche). So tags are used on a daily basis, they're just not part of the artists pages. Again that's down to Max.
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Points: 6352 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 05:35
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

A new team to sort out if something is prog - before the team in question decides if it's prog? Well this just shows you how little you follow the forum. Sorry for being so blunt, but one of the first things folks realise when they start posting on here, is that there are just as many thoughts on what constitutes prog, as there are posters. A new team would merely slow things down even more. What they may find prog will then often be rejected when it hits the proper team, because the team has other thoughts on prog. Then you have the same running-round-circles - now only with yet another team in the mix.
 
Since I have been a member here (approximately 2 and a half years) until quite recently, there has always been a 'New Suggestions Monitor' who did this job of deciding if something was prog or not...and then choosing what seemed to be the most appropriate sub genre team to send it to for initial evaluation if he thought it was prog. This system has always worked well, but it can be a Hell of a time consuming job at times, and the previous guy Chris, who did an absolutely fantastic, thorough, and faultless check on absolutely every suggestion that got posted here, was eventually overwhelmed by the volume of work he was being faced with. Other collabs used to chip in to help him out on occasions, but far too irregularly to make the job significantly any easier for him.
 
It would be good if two or three of the more experienced collabs on here (who were willing, and had the time available) could be teamed up again to officially carry out this pre-eval role. At the moment we are relying on the evaluation team members themselves dropping by here to pick up any suggestions that might apply to them, and - particularly if a sub gene isn't actually mentioned in the topic title - this doesn't always happen.
 
There will always be differences of opinion on which is the most appropriate sub genre for some artists who tend to mix styles, and the passing of such artists between the evaluation teams is inevitable on occasions, but such cases usually get resolved in the fullness of time, and the best compromise solution found.
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mogol View Drop Down
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Points: 42 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 06:37
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

 A new team to sort out if something is prog - before the team in question decides if it's prog? Well this just shows you how little you follow the forum. Sorry for being so blunt, but one of the first things folks realise when they start posting on here, is that there are just as many thoughts on what constitutes prog, as there are posters. A new team would merely slow things down even more. What they may find prog will then often be rejected when it hits the proper team, because the team has other thoughts on prog. Then you have the same running-round-circles - now only with yet another team in the mix.


No extra teams. I was actually meaning there would be only one team (e.g. consisting of all members of current teams plus maybe some other trusted collaborators). The main thought is getting more people with different points of view into evaluating process. I think it will be easier to get enough people out of one big team to listen to a given album and evaluate it than it is now. 
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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 07:02
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Nothing to be confused about, Alex isn't here anymore - plus you are not reading that right. Dean is suggesting that you stop suggesting acts that AREN'T featured on RYM and Allmusic. So yeah, the exact obvious of what you expressed. Take into account what's featured on other sites, see if the band in question has any sort of internet presence outside of their bandcamp page. If not, then simply don't suggest the band.


I'm sorry because I'm not reading that carefully.
However, I'm confused more now - because there at RYM are a lot of unsigned bands.
Nevermind.
Not a lot, but a few. What there isn't is every Bandcamp wannabie. Use RYM and AllMusic as a filter.
So many times I posted RYM links in my threads. Yea it can be a great help. 
However, "use that as a filter" can not be a golden rule for me because there are very nice bands and solo artists who have physical CDs and another presence at web outside Bandcamp but they are not at RYM and AllMusic lists (e.g. Shepherds of Cassini who are alredy in PA and who got the nice reviews, as this one: http://www.muzic.net.nz/articles/reviews/48224/shepherds-of-cassini-album-review )
Also, it could be sometimes that a signed prog band is not at RYM & AllMusic's lists (e.g. Arktis/Air, awesome 6-piece Vienna's band what I suggested a few weeks ago for Avant Prog: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=96077 )
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 10:02
Yeah sorry, I inadvertently described 'the suggestions team' earlier, which I am all for. 
The problem though is finding collabs who want to do this job - and moreover collabs who are well-versed in PAs different subs. The latter part of the equation is just as important as the first.
I've been on the suggestions team before, and I gotta say that it very quickly got to be something of a chore to do. It stopped being fun. I obviously can't speak for others, but I know a few people who've been in the same shoes and felt similarly. 
Add to that, back when the team worked well, we had so many more posters suggesting acts from left and right - meaning that just the basic presence of such a team spurs people on to suggest even more bands. I'm not saying that I don't want PA to grow - but I really don't want this place to transform into a listing site like Discogs. 

Anyway this thread ceased to be about Shepherds of Cassini a good while ago, which is why I'm closing it. If you want to discuss these matters further, I suggest you find another place for it. 
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

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