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Gallifrey View Drop Down
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Points: 588 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 01:20
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Originally posted by Gallifrey Gallifrey wrote:

Sorry for bringing this thread back up, but holy sh*t you guys are dicks.

I'm really starting to wonder why I still come here, when RYM does everything you do, but more and better, and they don't have admins and mods that complain about people trying to expand the database.

Calling these guys who devote time to running the website "dicks" is disrespectful and immature and should not be tolerated. Now go wash your mouth out with soap.

I respect their time and energy gone into the site, but they should respect Svetonio's time and energy going into finding these artists. I mean, if he didn't add them, then I would have, he just sped up the process. And I know, as someone who has seen these guys live and am friends with several people close to the band, I know that they are grateful to him for taking the time to suggest them here.

If you guys are so busy that you can't keep up, why not give Svetonio the privileges to add the bands himself? What about me? What about half the site members? I don't why you need to make it so hard for bands to be added, but you can't have a go at the guy who's suggesting them. Are you not meant to be the largest progressive rock database? So, you berate people for suggesting bands for your database and because the adding process is so flawed, you complain that the workload is too high, yet these bands are most likely going to be added by other members over time.

Sorry for being the guy to pull this up, but I really felt Svetonio had done nothing but good, and that he was the only one on the other side of this debate.


Edited by Gallifrey - December 10 2013 at 13:20
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 01:57
Originally posted by Gallifrey Gallifrey wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Originally posted by Gallifrey Gallifrey wrote:

Sorry for bringing this thread back up, but holy sh*t you guys are dicks.

I'm really starting to wonder why I still come here, when RYM does everything you do, but more and better, and they don't have admins and mods that complain about people trying to expand the database.

Calling these guys who devote time to running the website "dicks" is disrespectful and immature and should not be tolerated. Now go wash your mouth out with soap.

I respect their time and energy gone into the site, but they should respect Svetonio's time and energy going into finding these artists. I mean, if he didn't add them, then I would have, he just sped up the process. And I know, as someone who knows Shepherds of Cassini personally, that they are grateful to him for taking the time to suggest them here.

If you guys are so busy that you can't keep up, why not give Svetonio the privileges to add the bands himself? What about me? What about half the site members? I don't why you need to make it so hard for bands to be added, but you can't have a go at the guy who's suggesting them. Are you not meant to be the largest progressive rock database? So, you berate people for suggesting bands for your database and because the adding process is so flawed, you complain that the workload is too high, yet these bands are most likely going to be added by other members over time.

Sorry for being the guy to pull this up, but I really felt Svetonio had done nothing but good, and that he was the only one on the other side of this debate.

When we allowed just anyone to add a band we got too many additions that were simply not Prog, the team system, however slow that may appear, guarantees that the addition is considered to be Prog by at least two other people who have demonstrated that they understand the sub genre and the addition process. it also guarantees that the addition is done properly and completely, we have too many bands added without biographies, images and discographies from the days when just anyone could add a band. Svetonio has said himself he is not interested in providing that information so that automatically excludes him from ever being permitted to add bands. Similarly, people with vested interests would also be excluded. No matter how much you criticise the system and insult those who donate their time for free, it doesn't not work.

We are not RYM, nor do we ever want to be; we are not Bandcamp, nor do we ever want to be. If you do not like what we do here and how we do it then simply don't visit the site, it's not rocket science.

You can be as sorry as you like for bringing this up, it doesn't alter anything and calling us dicks certainly won't improve your chances of changing anything.
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Points: 4515 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 02:28

Actually, Shepherds of Cassini have been added to the site.

I must say I'm getting increasingly frustrated with evaluating and adding Bandcamp bands, more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys), and from what I have seen 90% of such artists that we have added in the metal prog subs in the last 3 years never seem to get any review or rating.

What's the point then? Because of all this evaluation work we don't even get to do what I think would matter more: like periodically checking/updating bios and discographies for bands that do matter (read get ratings) to prog metal fans.

Personally I'm all for tighter rules of what we should even consider for evaluation.




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Points: 5282 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 05:22
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:


Actually, Shepherds of Cassini have been added to the site.

I must say I'm getting increasingly frustrated with evaluating and adding Bandcamp bands, more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys), and from what I have seen 90% of such artists that we have added in the metal prog subs in the last 3 years never seem to get any review or rating.

What's the point then? Because of all this evaluation work we don't even get to do what I think would matter more: like periodically checking/updating bios and discographies for bands that do matter (read get ratings) to prog metal fans.

Personally I'm all for tighter rules of what we should even consider for evaluation.






I am not inclined to add bands that don't have enough interest for me personally, in terms of quality songwriting and production values and i just hope that every members who vote think the same. Maybe that the reality of the Prog Metal genre compare to The Heavy Prog genre is very different, because there is a lot more different kind of progressive metal then on the HP genre, which could affect the evaluation process. The voting system seems to me to be fair but maybe we should also vote for what we should consider for evaluation. I am not sure but, i think that only one individual is voting at the moment, and i can't complain about it.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 05:37

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Gallifrey Gallifrey wrote:


Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:


Originally posted by Gallifrey Gallifrey wrote:

Sorry for bringing this thread back up, but holy sh*t you guys are dicks.
I'm really starting to wonder why I still come here, when RYM does everything you do, but more and better, and they don't have admins and mods that complain about people trying to expand the database.



Calling these guys who devote time to running the website "dicks" is disrespectful and immature and should not be tolerated. Now go wash your mouth out with soap.

I respect their time and energy gone into the site, but they should respect Svetonio's time and energy going into finding these artists. I mean, if he didn't add them, then I would have, he just sped up the process. And I know, as someone who knows Shepherds of Cassini personally, that they are grateful to him for taking the time to suggest them here.
If you guys are so busy that you can't keep up, why not give Svetonio the privileges to add the bands himself? What about me? What about half the site members? I don't why you need to make it so hard for bands to be added, but you can't have a go at the guy who's suggesting them. Are you not meant to be the largest progressive rock database? So, you berate people for suggesting bands for your database and because the adding process is so flawed, you complain that the workload is too high, yet these bands are most likely going to be added by other members over time.
Sorry for being the guy to pull this up, but I really felt Svetonio had done nothing but good, and that he was the only one on the other side of this debate.

When we allowed just anyone to add a band we got too many additions that were simply not Prog, the team system, however slow that may appear, guarantees that the addition is considered to be Prog by at least two other people who have demonstrated that they understand the sub genre and the addition process. it also guarantees that the addition is done properly and completely, we have too many bands added without biographies, images and discographies from the days when just anyone could add a band. Svetonio has said himself he is not interested in providing that information so that automatically excludes him from ever being permitted to add bands. Similarly, people with vested interests would also be excluded. No matter how much you criticise the system and insult those who donate their time for free, it doesn't not work.
We are not RYM, nor do we ever want to be; we are not Bandcamp, nor do we ever want to be. If you do not like what we do here and how we do it then simply don't visit the site, it's not rocket science.
You can be as sorry as you like for bringing this up, it doesn't alter anything and calling us dicks certainly won't improve your chances of changing anything.

In fact, it was a slightly different. When I was asked for the first time to write the bios for Prog Archives, I replied that there is no problem that I prescribe a bio from Myspace (the service which was the "hit" at that time) or from a band's official website. I'v been told  then that the transcription from Myspace or a official website is not allowed because a bio must be written originally for Prog Archives. Of course, I said that my English is very poor by this task.
 
When I'v been asked the same for the second time, I didn't wanna to say *no*, so I said ok, that's fine, but I asked for some help of the SCs; I didn't get any response. Later two - three times I'v been asked for more the details who weren't already published by the bands, and I helped as best I could - I contacted the bands. So, the SCs get these necessary details directly from the artists ( e.g. Gravitsapa).


Edited by Svetonio - December 10 2013 at 06:35
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 05:49
Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:


Actually, Shepherds of Cassini have been added to the site.

I must say I'm getting increasingly frustrated with evaluating and adding Bandcamp bands, more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys), and from what I have seen 90% of such artists that we have added in the metal prog subs in the last 3 years never seem to get any review or rating. 

What's the point then? Because of all this evaluation work we don't even get to do what I think would matter more: like periodically checking/updating bios and discographies for bands that do matter (read get ratings) to prog metal fans.

Personally I'm all for tighter rules of what we should even consider for evaluation. 






I am not inclined to add bands that don't have enough interest for me personally, in terms of quality songwriting and production values and i just hope that every members who vote think the same. Maybe that the reality of the Prog Metal genre compare to The Heavy Prog genre is very different, because there is a lot more different kind of progressive metal then on the HP genre, which could affect the evaluation process. The voting system seems to me to be fair but maybe we should also vote for what we should consider for evaluation. I am not sure but, i think that only one individual is voting at the moment, and i can't complain about it.
Gah! Noooooo!

We are not here to judge quality or impose our personal preferences and predilections. If a band is Prog then they should be added regardless of how poor quality we believe the song-writing, playing or production to be. Good Prog and Bad Prog should be evaluated equally - reviews and ratings are for judging the quality of the album/artist, not the evaluations and additions process. 

We do however have the provision within the additions procedure not to evaluate unsigned bands whose self-released material we believe is not of a professional standard since we are a site for signed artists that has made some allowances for self-released albums.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 05:56

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

(...) more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys)(...)

What exactly is an amateur stuff regarding Cassini guys?
Are you think so because they're an unsigned band, or what?
Just curious.
Imho, they're fantastic band.
Also, Cassini guys were released physical CD with beautiful artwork which fits very well to their music.












Edited by Svetonio - December 10 2013 at 06:49
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Points: 5282 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 06:28
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:


Actually, Shepherds of Cassini have been added to the site.

I must say I'm getting increasingly frustrated with evaluating and adding Bandcamp bands, more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys), and from what I have seen 90% of such artists that we have added in the metal prog subs in the last 3 years never seem to get any review or rating. 

What's the point then? Because of all this evaluation work we don't even get to do what I think would matter more: like periodically checking/updating bios and discographies for bands that do matter (read get ratings) to prog metal fans.

Personally I'm all for tighter rules of what we should even consider for evaluation. 






I am not inclined to add bands that don't have enough interest for me personally, in terms of quality songwriting and production values and i just hope that every members who vote think the same. Maybe that the reality of the Prog Metal genre compare to The Heavy Prog genre is very different, because there is a lot more different kind of progressive metal then on the HP genre, which could affect the evaluation process. The voting system seems to me to be fair but maybe we should also vote for what we should consider for evaluation. I am not sure but, i think that only one individual is voting at the moment, and i can't complain about it.
Gah! Noooooo!

We are not here to judge quality or impose our personal preferences and predilections. If a band is Prog then they should be added regardless of how poor quality we believe the song-writing, playing or production to be. Good Prog and Bad Prog should be evaluated equally - reviews and ratings are for judging the quality of the album/artist, not the evaluations and additions process. 

We do however have the provision within the additions procedure not to evaluate unsigned bands whose self-released material we believe is not of a professional standard since we are a site for signed artists that has made some allowances for self-released albums.



The bands has to have a minimum of songwriting quality and production values to be consider Prog, judging that a band is not of professional standard is a subjective point of view... Judging that a band is Prog is subjective. I know that the goal is to be objective and that's why we vote but it's almost impossible to be completely objective.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 06:49
Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:


Actually, Shepherds of Cassini have been added to the site.

I must say I'm getting increasingly frustrated with evaluating and adding Bandcamp bands, more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys), and from what I have seen 90% of such artists that we have added in the metal prog subs in the last 3 years never seem to get any review or rating. 

What's the point then? Because of all this evaluation work we don't even get to do what I think would matter more: like periodically checking/updating bios and discographies for bands that do matter (read get ratings) to prog metal fans.

Personally I'm all for tighter rules of what we should even consider for evaluation. 






I am not inclined to add bands that don't have enough interest for me personally, in terms of quality songwriting and production values and i just hope that every members who vote think the same. Maybe that the reality of the Prog Metal genre compare to The Heavy Prog genre is very different, because there is a lot more different kind of progressive metal then on the HP genre, which could affect the evaluation process. The voting system seems to me to be fair but maybe we should also vote for what we should consider for evaluation. I am not sure but, i think that only one individual is voting at the moment, and i can't complain about it.
Gah! Noooooo!

We are not here to judge quality or impose our personal preferences and predilections. If a band is Prog then they should be added regardless of how poor quality we believe the song-writing, playing or production to be. Good Prog and Bad Prog should be evaluated equally - reviews and ratings are for judging the quality of the album/artist, not the evaluations and additions process. 

We do however have the provision within the additions procedure not to evaluate unsigned bands whose self-released material we believe is not of a professional standard since we are a site for signed artists that has made some allowances for self-released albums.



The bands has to have a minimum of songwriting quality and production values to be consider Prog, judging that a band is not of professional standard is a subjective point of view... Judging that a band is Prog is subjective. I know that the goal is to be objective and that's why we vote but it's almost impossible to be completely objective.
Nope. A band does not need to have a minimum of song-writing quality and production values to be consider Prog. Of course judging what is Prog is most certainly subjective, however it is most definitely not qualitative : bad Prog is still Prog. 

Judging that a band's product (ie "whose self-released material" and definitely not the band themselves - they are unsigned, this already establishes them technically as an non-professional band) is not of a professional standard is of course partly subjective and partly objective and is most certainly qualitative - if a band records their album using a cell-phone we reserve the right not to evaluate them for addition.
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Points: 4515 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 06:59
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:


Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

(...) more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys)(...)

What exactly is an amateur stuff regarding Cassini guys?
Are you think so because they're an unsigned band, or what?
Just curious.
Imho, they're fantastic band.
Also, Cassini guys were released physical CD with beautiful artwork which fits very well to their music.





In their case quality of the recording, and - to my ears - lack of experience with the material and playing together. Typically the kind of thing that you would expect a producer of a professional product to sort out for the band.

Just to be clear, I voted Yes for the band, as they are prog (post-metal), no doubt about that, and that is what we are meant to evaluate in the team.

My point is that I would like to see more severe addition rules, such as those 'professional' qualities, relevance, appearance on the web outside self-promotion platforms such as bandcamp.


Edited by Bonnek - December 10 2013 at 06:59
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 07:37
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:



Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:


Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

(...) more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys)(...)

What exactly is an amateur stuff regarding Cassini guys?
Are you think so because they're an unsigned band, or what?
Just curious.
Imho, they're fantastic band.
Also, Cassini guys were released physical CD with beautiful artwork which fits very well to their music.



In their case quality of the recording, and - to my ears - lack of experience with the material and playing together. (...)

For my ears that full-lenght debut album is just great, and one of the best releases in the genre this year.





Edited by Svetonio - December 10 2013 at 07:37
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 08:45
^Maybe you should do a review thenWink
Let the front-page people know about this band. 
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 12:28
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

^Maybe you should do a review thenWink

Let the front-page people know about this band. 


If you ask me to say something more about the album than JUST GREAT, I can tell you that at least I have not heard such a great dervish dance-like prog metal before. But, I do not have the talent to write a serious analysis as I have already said several times.



Edited by Svetonio - December 10 2013 at 12:32
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 13:07
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

^Maybe you should do a review thenWink

Let the front-page people know about this band. 


If you ask me to say something more about the album than JUST GREAT, I can tell you that at least I have not heard such a great dervish dance-like prog metal before. But, I do not have the talent to write a serious analysis as I have already said several times.

Man, you're full of excuses. Just say you don't want to, that's a perfectly valid reason. You don't want to write biographies, you don't want to write reviews. Not excuses, just good, honest, solid and acceptable reasons. 
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Points: 9226 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 13:42
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Nope. A band does not need to have a minimum of song-writing quality and production values to be consider Prog. Of course judging what is Prog is most certainly subjective, however it is most definitely not qualitative : bad Prog is still Prog. 

Judging that a band's product (ie "whose self-released material" and definitely not the band themselves - they are unsigned, this already establishes them technically as an non-professional band) is not of a professional standard is of course partly subjective and partly objective and is most certainly qualitative - if a band records their album using a cell-phone we reserve the right not to evaluate them for addition.

Can't agree more
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Points: 5282 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2013 at 16:42
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:


Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

(...) more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys)(...)

What exactly is an amateur stuff regarding Cassini guys?
Are you think so because they're an unsigned band, or what?
Just curious.
Imho, they're fantastic band.
Also, Cassini guys were released physical CD with beautiful artwork which fits very well to their music.





In their case quality of the recording, and - to my ears - lack of experience with the material and playing together. Typically the kind of thing that you would expect a producer of a professional product to sort out for the band.

Just to be clear, I voted Yes for the band, as they are prog (post-metal), no doubt about that, and that is what we are meant to evaluate in the team.

My point is that I would like to see more severe addition rules, such as those 'professional' qualities, relevance, appearance on the web outside self-promotion platforms such as bandcamp.


You're a little hard on the bandcamp platform which is becoming more popular, there's more and more interesting prog artists, better than the "Bad Prog bands"Wink that are using this to promote themselves by offering a complete streaming of their albums, which is more satisfying for us than to listen to 3 songs from a album on My Space.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 01:11
Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:


Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:



Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:


Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

(...) more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys)(...)

What exactly is an amateur stuff regarding Cassini guys?
Are you think so because they're an unsigned band, or what?
Just curious.
Imho, they're fantastic band.
Also, Cassini guys were released physical CD with beautiful artwork which fits very well to their music.



In their case quality of the recording, and - to my ears - lack of experience with the material and playing together. Typically the kind of thing that you would expect a producer of a professional product to sort out for the band.Just to be clear, I voted Yes for the band, as they are prog (post-metal), no doubt about that, and that is what we are meant to evaluate in the team.My point is that I would like to see more severe addition rules, such as those 'professional' qualities, relevance, appearance on the web outside self-promotion platforms such as bandcamp.
You're a little hard on the bandcamp platform which is becoming more
popular, there's more and more interesting prog artists, better than the
"Bad Prog bands"Wink
that are using this to promote themselves by offering a complete
streaming of their albums, which is more satisfying for us than to
listen to 3 songs from a album on My Space.
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Points: 4515 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 02:27
Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:



You're a little hard on the bandcamp platform which is becoming more popular, there's more and more interesting prog artists, better than the "Bad Prog bands"Wink that are using this to promote themselves by offering a complete streaming of their albums, which is more satisfying for us than to listen to 3 songs from a album on My Space.


No I'm not, Bandcamp is absolutely wonderful. MySpace a near disaster.

But there is a lot of DIY from many self-proclaimed artists there, which I hope will one day either stop being suggested to us, or will somehow not make it to the evaluations teams.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 03:03
What about a new PA sub-genre called for example "DIY Prog"?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2013 at 03:15
We already have it, it's called "Unsigned Bands", we can rename that "Unsigned Bands and DIY Prog" if that makes it easier for you to understand.

What about not recommending bands that are not listed on Rate Your Music and All Music?
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