3 Prog Rock Giants

Yes
Genesis/King Crimson
King Crimson/Genesis

HackettFan wrote:   Banks was not exactly band leader. It could be that it wasn't even as Banks wanted it to be so much as what the sound engineer did with it. I can't personally say. It's agreed that Revisited II is not by itself a good exhibit, but more because it's a current day release, and not from the bygone era we're discussing. Nevertheless, the electric guitar in Musical Box on Revisited II is more like the electric guitar in the live versions we currently have as opposed to the studio version.

rogerthat wrote: HackettFan wrote: where there are a couple guitar chords that really crunch, but they don't come out favorably in the mix unless you listen to Genesis Revisited II. I don't think it's a hands down case that Red is heavier than Lillywhite Lilith. However, perhaps it is more clearly so in the case of LTIA pt. 2. This is something of an outlier for Crimson, though (aside from for pt. 3). Anyway, I agree with your point about Fripp being more non-melodic. I am not sure Genesis Revisited II is a good exhibit for this because it is not representative of how the band wanted the composition to sound, only what Hackett wanted it to be like.  Is it about Hackett getting drowned in the mix or is it just the way Banks wanted it to be?

Banks was not exactly band leader. It could be that it wasn't even as Banks wanted it to be so much as what the sound engineer did with it. I can't personally say. It's agreed that Revisited II is not by itself a good exhibit, but more because it's a current day release, and not from the bygone era we're discussing. Nevertheless, the electric guitar in Musical Box on Revisited II is more like the electric guitar in the live versions we currently have as opposed to the studio version.

rogerthat wrote: I don't think Genesis were really interested in sounding very heavy at that time and that is a clear distinction from the Wetton-KC lineup, which Fripp fully intended as heavy music.

On balance you may be right, but they both had their hard and soft side. Any disparity on this front I think can be easily exaggerated. Gabriel was interested bringing some "balls" to the group. Hackett was interested in the same. They were all surely interested in sounding heavy, possibly at different times and as the mood struck them maybe. Anyway, if you compare live performances of the two groups. There is no disparity apparent between how heavy the live versions of Musical Box were versus the live version of LTIA pt. 1. Musical Box had enormous energy live. We do not have as many versions of LTIA pt.1 live to use in the comparison (I only know of one), but what we have certainly does not place them in different leagues. LTIA pt. 1 does pack a concussive punch on record in one place, but the whole LTIA album is a better quality recording than Nursery Cryme anyway. I also tend to think (because it's apparent) Genesis backed off a little after the poor sound quality they got in recording The Return of the Giant Hogweed.

I think the real difference was that Crimson (depending on the line up) were better players on some level. Genesis was made up of better song writers on some level.

rogerthat wrote: LTIA 2 is not really an outlier either because LTIA 1 too has a heavy riff and so does Fracture.

I'm sure we have Genesis albums with more than one heavy riff. The heavy riff on LTIA pt.1 is rather brief, I should say too. (BTW, I don't actually care for LTIA 2, but LTIA 1 is very special. Exiles is extra special. LTIA, Lizard and Discipline are my favorite albums. I like but don't love ITCOCK. I really don't care for Islands and most of Red aside from Providence. Providence appeals to me the same as Genesis' The Waiting Room. I don't find Providence any heavier than the Waiting Room either, I might add. - Random info on my preferences)

Edited by HackettFan - January 28 2013 at 18:37

^ Throw in that motif (the "chorus riff" on the guitar) on "LTIA, pt. 1". It's like rending to the bones.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 28 2013 at 03:15

Dayvenkirq wrote: ProgMetaller2112 wrote: HarbouringTheSoul wrote: So your argument is "It has one riff that reminds me of Black Sabbath, therefore it's heavier than King Crimson."? Nope, "The Knife" is a really violent song musically and conceptually that no King Crimson track has ever matched it.  And what if someone disagrees?

you are entitled to disagree and have your own opinions


Edited by ProgMetaller2112 - January 28 2013 at 02:25

ole-the-first wrote: ^Except for Schizoid, Laks and the whole Crimson's industrial-era (1994 — 2003).

I'll be honest here I stopped searching the bands music after Three Of A Perfect Pair

HarbouringTheSoul wrote: So your argument is "It has one riff that reminds me of Black Sabbath, therefore it's heavier than King Crimson."?

Nope, the Knife is a really violent song musically and conceptually that no King Crimson track has ever matched it

rogerthat wrote: ProgMetaller2112 wrote: rogerthat wrote: So what if it is?  The TONE doesn't have much heaviness.  Ditto, Musical Box.   Such music is rather too melodic for me to associate it with heavy metal.   Compare Knife to what Deep Purple were doing on In Rock or even the Warpigs riff, that is a lot heavier already.   By 1971, there's no question that Sabbath was a lot heavier with tracks like Into the Void. So what if it is, Iommi and Sabbath is exactly what Metal is all about and The Knife sounds like Black Sabbath Knife only sounds like Sabbath to the extent that the riff is a bit like Sabbath.    Rutherford doesn't double up with the guitarist in the same way as Butler so the effect is ultimately not that heavy.

I agree Mike doesn't have the effect that Geezer does but really that song reminds me of Sabbath

HackettFan wrote: where there are a couple guitar chords that really crunch, but they don't come out favorably in the mix unless you listen to Genesis Revisited II. I don't think it's a hands down case that Red is heavier than Lillywhite Lilith. However, perhaps it is more clearly so in the case of LTIA pt. 2. This is something of an outlier for Crimson, though (aside from for pt. 3). Anyway, I agree with your point about Fripp being more non-melodic.

rogerthat wrote: So what if it is?  The TONE doesn't have much heaviness.  Ditto, Musical Box.   Such music is rather too melodic for me to associate it with heavy metal.   Compare Knife to what Deep Purple were doing on In Rock or even the Warpigs riff, that is a lot heavier already.   By 1971, there's no question that Sabbath was a lot heavier with tracks like Into the Void.

So what if it is, Iommi and Sabbath is exactly what Metal is all about and The Knife sounds like Black Sabbath