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Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: January 17 2012 at 10:56
DavetheSlave wrote:
Rogerthat - I don't dislike extreme music at all relating to the instruments or the sound - it's when the vocalist starts barking that I kind of hurriedly switch off.
The point is, only harsh vocals go well with that kind of music. That speed, intensity and aggression. I am not talking about the emotion alone. An emotion like anger can be rendered in many different ways in music but if you are going to make extreme metal, there's no way Ian Gillan type singing will fit. At least punk shouts or something like that. James Hetfield is supposedly 'clean' but in many 'old Metallica' compositions, he is not really singing and he uses a lot of grit to bring out that harshness too. It's not growling but it's still not like Halford either. Now whether you need vocals at all for that kind of music is a different issue. I'd argue that such vocals at least give the music some character, even if overblown and over the top, without which it would start sounding like one long wall of distortion.
Joined: June 18 2009
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Posted: January 17 2012 at 18:00
I wouldn't say only harsh vocals go well with metal. As a matter of fact, I do like metal quiet a bit, but even though there are albums with harsh vocals that I like, still the one thing I don't like about them are the harsh vocals themselves. There's a lot of very good metal without harsh vocals. Perhaps James Hetfiel's agressive singing, without reaching the level of growling, is just what I would call the right level of agressivness without becoming too much... but then, that's just me.
Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
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Posted: January 17 2012 at 20:24
Dellinger wrote:
I wouldn't say only harsh vocals go well with metal. As a matter of fact, I do like metal quiet a bit, but even though there are albums with harsh vocals that I like, still the one thing I don't like about them are the harsh vocals themselves. There's a lot of very good metal without harsh vocals. Perhaps James Hetfiel's agressive singing, without reaching the level of growling, is just what I would call the right level of agressivness without becoming too much... but then, that's just me.
I'm with you on that! Hetfield's vocals are quite exquisite, but the "death growl" of most black/death/prog metal is a bit, well, overdone.
A buddy of mine sent me a Rammstein CD, I'm trying to figure out what to do with it. Drink coaster sounds about right.
Nobody could ever beat Ronnie James Dio in my book.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: January 18 2012 at 00:25
Dellinger wrote:
I wouldn't say only harsh vocals go well with metal. As a matter of fact, I do like metal quiet a bit, but even though there are albums with harsh vocals that I like, still the one thing I don't like about them are the harsh vocals themselves. There's a lot of very good metal without harsh vocals. Perhaps James Hetfiel's agressive singing, without reaching the level of growling, is just what I would call the right level of agressivness without becoming too much... but then, that's just me.
I agree that it's not only harsh vocals that go well with metal, I didn't say just metal. I meant extreme metal. The reason Hetfield can stay away from growling is also because the music is still not as extreme, as hyper as death/black metal can often get. A song like Master of Puppets has a lot more space and very nice changes whereas extreme metal is typically much more "concentrated" towards an extreme of tempo and intensity, hence the very term. I cannot imagine Ronnie James Dio singing on a death metal song. If we are going to make a revisionist classification of Buried Alive as death metal, then maybe but as far as what is recognized as death metal, I don't think so.
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
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Posted: January 18 2012 at 02:02
cstack3 wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
I wouldn't say only harsh vocals go well with metal. As a matter of fact, I do like metal quiet a bit, but even though there are albums with harsh vocals that I like, still the one thing I don't like about them are the harsh vocals themselves. There's a lot of very good metal without harsh vocals. Perhaps James Hetfiel's agressive singing, without reaching the level of growling, is just what I would call the right level of agressivness without becoming too much... but then, that's just me.
I'm with you on that! Hetfield's vocals are quite exquisite, but the "death growl" of most black/death/prog metal is a bit, well, overdone.
A buddy of mine sent me a Rammstein CD, I'm trying to figure out what to do with it. Drink coaster sounds about right.
Nobody could ever beat Ronnie James Dio in my book.
I'm with you regarding Rammstein I have a few of their albums but only in case I have company that likes them - they kind of go on and on and on and I get bored to death with the monotony of the sound. In a way much extreme metal has the same impact on me - kind of like listening to noise all the time. I've said that I can enjoy the music related to extreme metal in an instrumental form and yes I can but for a very limited timespan in that there are no real nuances to it - mainly just chaos and anger. For an album to be really appealing to me it must have a plethora of nuances and emotions that it kind of takes you on a journey through.
Almost agree with you relating to Dio but unfortunately Halford, Tate and others get in the way although I kind of put them on the same pedestal with Dio. Relating to metal very little gets my adrenaline up like Halford can and very little gets my emotions up like Tate can. Then there is "Holy Diver" or "Catch the Rainbow" - holy moly - I wouldn't want to have to vote on who I believe the best metal vocalist is because I think I would become horribly stuck.
Joined: June 18 2009
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Posted: January 18 2012 at 13:43
I don't really consider Rammstein's vocals to be on the same vein as "growling", and they don't really bother me as such (plus, the fact that they are in german sort of helps to make that aspect "interesting"... though I believe that's as interesting as their singing goes, for I've been told their lyrics are as banal as the cheesiest pop artist). As far as Rammstein's music goes... well, I don't know them well enough to make a judgement; there's a few songs I've heard that I kind of like, but I'm under the impression that listening to too much of it would become rather tedious.
As far as Dio goes, well, I guess I have to get to know some of his work. Perhaps I should get the Rainbow album, as well as Heaven and Hell.
Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
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Posted: January 18 2012 at 14:16
Harsh metal vocals are absolutely fine. I had to endure an initiation period where I listened to them as much as possible because I loathed them, but I knew there was nothing wrong with them. I'm glad I did, because it opened up a huge new range of brilliant music to me that I couldn't access before thanks to the extreme metal 'barrier'.
It also means I don't look like an outdated idiot moaning about how it sounds 'like they're in pain' on a forum... *cough*.
I could only listen to clean vocals for a while, but when I heard Between the Buried and Me's "Prequel to the Sequel", I knew I was missing out. The intro to that song is so awesome, and I loved all the instruments so much that I would try to tune out the growls just so I could listen to it (that wasn't very successful). After giving some of their other stuff a listen, I also fell in love with the last half of "Mordecai", but I'm a firm believer in listening to a song all the way through, so I would tough out the brutal first half.
A few years later, I've seen Between the Buried and Me live, own their discography and a number of shirts, and they are in my top 10 favourite bands.
It was tough going at first, but the growls grew on me, even though I thought I would never understand that type of music. As others have said in this thread, I'm so glad I took the time to let those vocals grow, because liking, or even simply tolerating the growls opens up TONS of new music to listen to, and that's always a good thing.
I still like clean vocals better, and I think the clean parts of BTBAM songs are often their best, but I can now enjoy growls / screaming as well, and it's great.
Joined: December 25 2011
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Posted: January 29 2012 at 16:59
rogerthat wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
I wouldn't say only harsh vocals go well with metal. As a matter of fact, I do like metal quiet a bit, but even though there are albums with harsh vocals that I like, still the one thing I don't like about them are the harsh vocals themselves. There's a lot of very good metal without harsh vocals. Perhaps James Hetfiel's agressive singing, without reaching the level of growling, is just what I would call the right level of agressivness without becoming too much... but then, that's just me.
I agree that it's not only harsh vocals that go well with metal, I didn't say just metal. I meant extreme metal. The reason Hetfield can stay away from growling is also because the music is still not as extreme, as hyper as death/black metal can often get. A song like Master of Puppets has a lot more space and very nice changes whereas extreme metal is typically much more "concentrated" towards an extreme of tempo and intensity, hence the very term. I cannot imagine Ronnie James Dio singing on a death metal song. If we are going to make a revisionist classification of Buried Alive as death metal, then maybe but as far as what is recognized as death metal, I don't think so.
I think that clean vocals could actually sound very interesting in extreme metal, and there are definitely extreme metal bands that use them. UneXpect uses growls but also has a female singer whose clean vocals sound great with the music. I think operatic, intense clean vocals could combine very well with extreme metal, and I would guess that it's been done before, although I have yet to delve deeply enough into that kind of music to be sure.
Joined: January 04 2012
Location: Denver, CO
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Posted: January 30 2012 at 03:15
I agree with the people that say it depends on the band. That being said, it's a harsh, ugly vocal style for harsh, ugly music. Because of that it won't work for most prog bands.
Let's think about Haken. One guy somewhere here in forums, few days ago, said that Haken used to do a lot more growls in their music few years ago (live gigs).
Well, then came 2010 albums with some growls and 2011 one with virtually none. That's a progress guys :-)
On the other hand, Beardfish adopted some for their Destined Solitare one, something that didn't used to do before.
You know what scares me a lot ? Prospect that Moon Safari will try it as well.
There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"
Joined: March 02 2009
Location: Australia
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Points: 19643
Posted: January 30 2012 at 06:25
Nowadays I prefer harsh vocals (screams/yells) most of the time. A lot more expressive to me. Death growls are alright too, but I'm less of a fan of them.
This sort of stuff is probably my favourite vocal style now:
Joined: July 22 2012
Location: MD
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Points: 112
Posted: July 29 2012 at 15:30
progkidjoel wrote:
Nowadays I prefer harsh vocals (screams/yells) most of the time. A lot more expressive to me. Death growls are alright too, but I'm less of a fan of them.
This sort of stuff is probably my favourite vocal style now:
I don't mean to be a douche, but these just suck. I'm laughing at myself as I wrote that, but I really don't have a better way to say it. It tried to mix two genres of music and, lo and behold, it sounds unnatural and awkward. Leave the blood-curdling screams to Tom Araya and Chuck Schuldiner.
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Clean Vocals or Death Growl? (Modern Prog)
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DavetheSlave wrote:
I have a few of their albums but only in case I have company that likes them - they kind of go on and on and on and I get bored to death with the monotony of the sound. In a way much extreme metal has the same impact on me - kind of like listening to noise all the time. I've said that I can enjoy the music related to extreme metal in an instrumental form and yes I can but for a very limited timespan in that there are no real nuances to it - mainly just chaos and anger. For an album to be really appealing to me it must have a plethora of nuances and emotions that it kind of takes you on a journey through. 
