For example, Yes would sound AWFUL with growling, but Jon Anderson's vocals would probably sound out of place in Morbid Angel... 

Well yeah, that's what I'm saying. Apples and Oranges. I don't think anyone would want to growl in symphonic prog. 

Great mention. I had totally forgotten this song. Sorry for Nick Mason who wasn't thr first...

 

 

There i have said it.

 

Its true - Opeth's music is amazing but the growling caustic vocals are abysmal!

 

Clean vocals are the best, and take more skill.

 

i know some death head will get on  here and spout on about how amazing death metal vocals are, and how it takes so  much talent to scream your vocals raw - but it is not the case.

 

Over 30yrs of listening to all kinds of music......I have to agree.

I have no problem with people not liking harsh/growled vocals, but I don't like it when people discredit them entirelty or write it off as not being legitimate.  Granted, I listen to a lot of extreme stuff and vocals rarely phase me anymore (be it death metal roars or zeuhl screeches, I'm on both ends of the spectrum), but some stuff wouldn't work without harsh vocals.  A good amount of the time they're almost necessary to make the music more effective.  It's hard to say if I prefer growled or clean because I think both are necessary at appropriate times.

 

Clean vocals aren't exactly operatic or choir singing, most rock singing is head-singing anyway.

No way to set up a rule, can imagine how Jon Anderson could spoil quite a few good Rock albums whit his clean vocal. On the other hand, too much Grooooouuuwl and it get boring too.

 

The New Orphaned Land, would be a good example of how to use the right vocal at the right time, making the album, the vocaly best balanced albums i'we heard for a while.  

Somebody has mentioned that different instruments sound also different, well for sure but if so, growling vocals sound like a badly-tuned and badly played instrument to me. It's as if a guitar would be so distorted and mistuned that you do not perceive a sensible timbre nor musical sound dynamics anymore.

 

But ok that's just my taste, nothing against them or against those who like them, I just think it's a pitty they sometimes ruin (to me) otherwise brilliant music.

That's how I feel too. One of the reasons I'm not really into metal is the growling, and a few other things too. I like to be able to understand the lyrics, and growling and screaming won't really inspire me.

To me, this is why Opeth is so good; because they can balance the growls and the really heavy parts with the clean, softer parts. Similarly, a band like Atheist would sound absolutely absurd if they didn't use their sort of harsh screaming style. Different styles call for different vocal types.

I listen to a lot of genres.....I do enjoy some of the music but I get bored cause I am trying to understand the lyrics.

 

I guess I failed.......

or i can give deluge grander as an example to this. they do not really use vocals in their songs, but the short vocal partitions are highly experimental and works perfect when you get used to them.

also indukti can be an example of the experimental vocal users, especially with their last album.

moon safari, the dear hunter and ritual are the bands that i like as the users of clean vocals. on the other hand baroness, isis, devin townsend, opeth and (early) maudlin of the well are using growly vocals with perfection.

 

Deans point was not about languages but understanding lyrics........as you well know.

That's a bit sad.

 

Just my opinion:The Time more than ever is to be Clean

 

Like they were back in the 60's

 

We're in "The Battle for Middle Earth"

 

One of the Hugest reasons why i love Prog is it's politicalness,what i mean is Concept Albums.

 

The Record Companies which are a extension of Wall Street and The owner of Wall Street who is The Rothschild Family,want to take back the control of the music thru shows like American Idol,America's got talent,thru Censorship,Copyright laws and Monpolizing the Internet

So to get back to anything that the Record Companies approve of folks get to listen,while if the Recording Industry doesn't approve of won't see the light of day

 

Which means this is a battle for also Preservation of the finest music,independance of the artists and musicians.

 

Why Clean now,because to clearly hit folks upside the head,get back to THE REAL BLUES

 

Except for a few artists(Robert Wyatt included in the few),musicians have lost THE BLUES.

 

I'd love for artists to touch on

 

*Bank of England and Wall Street robbing the Greek,Iceland and American People thru Speculation,Derivatives,Credit-Default Swaps,Sub-prime loans(If you want a clue read the Matt Taibbi articles in Rolling Stone and his blog at the Rolling Stone website,even get back issues with his articles on Goldman-Sachs and Wall Street)

Btw that's what Gong's 2032 album is about.

 

* why we're in war?It's not for Patriotism but to fill Wall Streets pockets and for land and oil for Israel.

And

Reason why i'm saying this is because your,your mom,dad,cousin etc.Taxpayer dollars flipping the bill for these wars.

So Aparteid Israel can murder and butcher innocent Gazians and Palestinians wholesale because their not the Chosen People of the Talmud(Hey Metalheads you wanted hardcore i just told the truth)

(Also btw Robert Wyatt's "For Ghosts within" is about this,also check the saxophone player's website http://www.gilad.co.uk - www.gilad.co.uk )

 

*Btw Americans,did you know that the American Soldier is over in Afghanistan for the worlds Opium because 92% of the world's Opium is in Afghanistan

and

In early 2000's The Taliban threw out the Opium Drugs Lords and The Drug Lords came to the US Government wanting to send the troops to Afghanistan to get back the Opium fields for the Drug Lords.

 

*Btw also the American Soldiers can been Thrill-killing(Which open-fire on) innocent and Unarmed Women and Children over in Afghanistan,Iraqi.

 

Ahh folks do yourself a favour read War is a Rackett by USMC Smedley Darlington Butler.

 

The book will make Crystal Clear why wars are fought.

 

We need to get back to the garden,back to the 60's where folks and musicians took a stand.

 

Hey

 

Robert Wyatt's For ghosts within and Gong's 2032 is a start.

 

People need a sledgehammer tooken to them or a boot up their rear because they need to be woken up.

 

Clear,Crystal Clear is the perffered technique right now!!!

 

 

I just feel when you listen to an album, especially progressive, you expect a certain type of music, usually complex, multi instrumental perhaps, with a variation of styles and a certain atmosphere is generated. When those death metal grow vocals come on in short spurts, it works OK to bring a darkness to an atmosphere, and at times admittedly it can get too dark for my tastes but I can understand it's use. I detest evil lyrics and evil sounding vocalists; obviously black metal bands want to sound evil and dark and for that reason they shriek, growl and vomit their way through every song, such as Dark Throne, Emperor, Cradle of Filth, and I used to listen to Morbid Angel, Nalpalm Death and Exodus in my metal years. I still like some of Napalm Death's old stuff such as Suffer the Children and Cenotaph, great for a change of pace. Overall though, I have grown out of that now into more serious adult music; I believe the death metal scene is really for a teenage or pre 30s target audience, though there are always exceptions, and it is not virtuoso or complex, I have played and sung Cenotaph myself, and it is not difficult. A lot of people can growl a song, but try singing like Russell Alan or Neal Morse or Jon Anderson... very difficult.   

 

The grindcore bands of course have to growl or they would sound stupid, but once agin that is fine for them if thats what floats your boat, indulge in Canibal Corpse, Jim Carrey's favourite band, and hear about having your entrails split, your body rots, you are repeatedly smashed to a pulp with hammers... the growling is so intense and inaudible they could be singing "my dog runs across the road and licks my neighbour's cat"... I read the lyrics to Hammer Smashed Face and the song was still impossible to follow. Is that talent to sing like that? Lyrics are so important to me and if you cannot understand them, why have lyrics? What is their purpose?   

 

When growling vocals work it is when they are used in a certain context , not just growling non stop, that is really boring and irritating. They work when used for a purpose such as Devin Townsend albums (Ziltoid), Dream Theater (Black Clouds...) Haken (Aquarius) and Ayreon (Human Equation day 12). In these albums contexts the growling enhances the mood and makes sense even. I still do not prefer it but I can appreciate the effect that this has and it belongs there. However if there is a constatnt barrage of death vocals on every song it loses its impact for me and becomes very dull and unpleasant. This is why I mention Opeth. They are incredible musicians and I love Still Life, and Damnation especially. Damnation is a beautifully crafted melancholy Gothic work that has some of the best Opeth, influenced from Porcupine Tree admittedly but is great to hear very quiet vocals and virtuoso guitar riffing, not just a bunch of angry growls. In My Time Of Need is my favourite track on the album that features a melody that really captivates me and it haunts me, beautiful beyond anything on their other albums. When they use clean vocals and growling balanced out it is Ok with me, such as on Still Life, but when it is one incessant GREEEEEAAAAAAAOOOOOOORRRRRRRR - I mean, what good is that and especialy as Akerfeldt is such a damn fine singer on clean vocals, as good as i have heard. I was really moved by his work on Damnation and then was so appalled at Deliverance which sounded like he was possessed by demons he growled so much. I know it is only a style of music but it sounds so morbid and evil. OK, just leave the growling to Black Metal and grindcore type bands, they can have it and I wont go near that music again... already indulged in that realm 25 years ago, and then I discovered real music - PROG4EVER.  

Sometimes for some people the language barrier can be a problem. If it doesn't bother you though there is amazing music out there not sung in English.

When I was young i don't think i would have bothered with non English music.

 

AtomicCrimsonRush wrote: I just feel when you listen to an album, especially progressive, you expect a certain type of music, usually complex, multi instrumental perhaps, with a variation of styles and a certain atmosphere is generated.

So you expect and want prog to be samey and predictable?

AtomicCrimsonRush wrote: When those death metal grow vocals come on in short spurts, it works OK to bring a darkness to an atmosphere, and at times admittedly it can get too dark for my tastes but I can understand it's use. I detest evil lyrics and evil sounding vocalists; obviously black metal bands want to sound evil and dark and for that reason they shriek, growl and vomit their way through every song, such as Dark Throne, Emperor, Cradle of Filth, and I used to listen to Morbid Angel, Nalpalm Death and Exodus in my metal years. I still like some of Napalm Death's old stuff such as Suffer the Children and Cenotaph, great for a change of pace. Overall though, I have grown out of that now into more serious adult music; I believe the death metal scene is really for a teenage or pre 30s target audience, though there are always exceptions, and it is not virtuoso or complex, I have played and sung Cenotaph myself, and it is not difficult. A lot of people can growl a song, but try singing like Russell Alan or Neal Morse or Jon Anderson... very difficult.

Death metal is quite often incredibly complex, that's like saying prog isn't complex because Tangerine Dream aren't. It's unfair to judge a genre on one artist, let alone one characteristic which you don't enjoy.
Also, I personally believe prog is for old people who like to listen to men singing about elves with their high womanly voices.

 

AtomicCrimsonRush wrote: The grindcore bands of course have to growl or they would sound stupid, but once agin that is fine for them if thats what floats your boat, indulge in Canibal Corpse, Jim Carrey's favourite band, and hear about having your entrails split, your body rots, you are repeatedly smashed to a pulp with hammers... the growling is so intense and inaudible they could be singing "my dog runs across the road and licks my neighbour's cat"... I read the lyrics to Hammer Smashed Face and the song was still impossible to follow. Is that talent to sing like that? Lyrics are so important to me and if you cannot understand them, why have lyrics? What is their purpose?

And there are plenty of prog lyrics which I don't like, but this is about VOCALS, not lyrical content. maudlin of the Well have some of the most poetic lyrics I've ever heard and they just so happened to be growled. Don't generalize.

 

I enjoy a lot of non-english music and I understand spanish, some portuguese and italian....but not growling.

lol! I hate growling too, I find it silly when it's growling lyrics, although free form vocal hatred is ok, but this post is ridiculous. 

One barrier for foreign language prog is import prices, the only RPI album I have is Area's Nazi Attack because it wasn't expensive, but I don't want to pay $20 for an album.

 

Yea this thread got on a side bar......first the OP question was valid. Clean Vocals or Death Growl? Then it turned into...'.what you don't like music from non-english speaking regions?'

 

Anyhow I don't like Death Growl as the OP was asking.

That's screaming. 

In my opinion, Opeth is one of the very best bands of today.

There's a big difference, I think, in screaming for effect and growling words to sound menacing. I find Opeth hilarious, but I like this song, except for the retching part.

Why? I don't know. 

This almost qualifies as a Trollin' Poll. :(

 

This guy must have krapped his pants 14times while doing this.....or simply blew up.

 

It depends on the work itself.

 

There is no reason for any of us to think that growls don't have their place in music, and that some folks can sing really well right through it. One can listen to Joe Cocker, or even catch Roger Chapman singing "Gypsy Moon" and then belting out "Chili Con Carne" or something else ...

 

In the end, it's not about the growl or the clean vocal ... it's about how it gets used, and that IS what "progressive" music is all about.

 

If I may ask, and this is totally weird to me ... progressive music was, AND IS, about breaking the traditions and creating new sounds and new voices and new music ... and why, WHY, are we trying to change things to a commercial aspect in music ... that has a lot less to do with its conception and vision, than it does the listener's desire and idea?

 

In the end, it's about the totality of it all ... or all you turkeys would have said a long time ago that Peter Hammill can't sing at all ... ! What's more ... he could careless what you think about his own voice and decisions on how to use it! That's the artist's prorogative ... not jail sentence!

 

Hard to believe some of these posts ... and how much we really do not respect music and expression, regardless of style.

 

It's sad! Really and totally sad!

Agreed ... but as long as you don't go around saying that is what music should be! Which distorts the definition of music that has been for the past 60 to 70 years more than anything else.

 

In the end, a growler or a clean vocal doesn't mean sheepdip if it is all it is ... and has little music behind it, and we can call it "metal", or something else.

If someone simply states.."hate it" with no reasons why, then I generally don't pay attention.

 

Tell me why you don't like something......then I can understand better without making my own judgements.

 

To be quite honest I find it hard to understand what clean vocalists are saying a lot of the time as well.

I do so hate that term.