Joined: November 30 2012
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Posted: November 30 2012 at 23:32
If it is unfair to evaluate them alongside the likes of Styx or Asia who have been solidified as being completely 'prog' at one time or another, then is it fair to compare them with bands such as Journey or some of Dio's work (both of which are already in the Prog-Related section)?
If that is indeed permissible, then I would say that Toto retained more progressive elements and let them shine through more often than Journey, and the bulk of what Dio did was heavy metal, yet both present themselves on this site while Toto is not represented.
I never did think of Toto as a progressive band, but many, many other sources site them as such (last.fm, Pandora, various magazines/websites, etc.), and after exploring their work a bit, I find quite a few full-on prog tunes, and a bulk of their work has progressive undertones and/or influences.
I might even find them worthy enough based on the sheer amount of outside agreement on the matter.
Joined: June 29 2008
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Posted: June 18 2012 at 10:23
Ok people, if you really want anything to happen I would suggest the following:
(1) Find out whether Toto already has been formally evaluated by the admin team for Prog Related. If yes, forget about it. If no, move on to step 2.
(2) Take a look at the official guidelines for Prog Related and make a list of facts about Toto that support their relevance for PA in accordance with those guidelines.
(3) Find a Special Collaborator who is willing to take this list to the admins for formal evaluation
Good luck! (again, I remain neutral on Toto as I don't know them well enough. Yet)
Joined: June 29 2008
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Posted: June 10 2012 at 16:37
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
SouthSideoftheSky wrote:
Relevant comparisons for Toto might perhaps be Ambrosia, FM, Journey, Magnum, and Styx
Fritz, as with Kansas, people are more familiar with STYX poppy music, but their first three albums before Curulewski left, were 100% Prog, as a fact they did a version of "Fanfare for a common Man" 5 years before ELP (It's called Movement for a Common man), even in albums like "The Grand Illusion", they have Prog tracks as "Man in the Wilderness" and "Fooling Yourself"
Journey, i don't know why they are here.
Not familiar with the other bands
Yeah, first of all, as I stressed earlier in this thread, I'm not familiar with Toto at all (above the odd song or two). Hence, I'm not making any musical comparisons, and I'm not endorsing them. I'm just saying that if comparisons in terms of "degree of progness" or "degree of relevance for Prog" (or the like) are to be made, we should be fair and compare with other bands that are in the Prog Related category. Comparing Toto with Genesis, Kansas, Saga, etc. is irrelevant and unfair.
I know the early albums by Styx and think it right that they are here. I also think it is right and proper that Journey is here (not just because of the Santana-connection).
Joined: March 23 2005
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Posted: June 10 2012 at 16:03
I'm definitely not a diehard Collins fan and I think the albums you call "pop" are quite proggy. Sure there are some shorter simpler songs in there but a lot of Prog bands did that even in their main prog phase. But one man's "pop" is another mans interesting music. Kansas are pretty "poppish" for starters. That is why I think quite a few people here don't like them.
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
Posted: June 10 2012 at 15:37
lazland wrote:
It is indeed an opinion, a nonsensical one. Even the band's harshest critics accept that there are pure prog tracks on all the albums you mention. The commercial ones were also written with a prog sensibility, which set them apart from a lot of other pop music at the time.
Since when are you in Prog Archives or any other forum or Prog site?
The general consensus except a few fans is that Genesis went POP, the problem is the moment
Some say after W&W
Some more say after ATTW3
Most say after Duke
A few say after Abacab
But everybody except some diehard Collins fans agree they went POP.
Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: June 10 2012 at 14:27
SouthSideoftheSky wrote:
Relevant comparisons for Toto might perhaps be Ambrosia, FM, Journey, Magnum, and Styx
Fritz, as with Kansas, people are more familiar with STYX poppy music, but their first three albums before Curulewski left, were 100% Prog, as a fact they did a version of "Fanfare for a common Man" 5 years before ELP (It's called Movement for a Common man), even in albums like "The Grand Illusion", they have Prog tracks as "Man in the Wilderness" and "Fooling Yourself"
Journey, i don't know why they are here.
Not familiar with the other bands
But even if they were wrongly added, a mistake doesn't justify another mistake, if somebody leaves you a black eye, you don't go to the door and smash your other eye to make it even.
Joined: June 29 2008
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Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:47
aginor wrote:
SouthSideoftheSky wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.
(I know that it wasn't you who brought Genesis into this debate in the first place, Iván. And whoever did was asking for trouble! ). But of course Genesis are icons of Prog (Symphonic Prog), nobody is going to argue with that (I hope!) But that seems to be irrelevant to the question of whether Toto should be added to Prog Related or not. Genesis is not the relevant comparison here at all, but more those bands like Asia, Journey, etc. that are in Prog Related already.
and Saga, (not against anything about Saga but they are also similar
Well, Saga is listed in Crossover (and rightly so, I think).
I actually think that Asia should be in Crossover too.
Relevant comparisons for Toto might perhaps be Ambrosia, FM, Journey, Magnum, and Styx
Joined: March 21 2008
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Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:25
SouthSideoftheSky wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.
(I know that it wasn't you who brought Genesis into this debate in the first place, Iván. And whoever did was asking for trouble! ). But of course Genesis are icons of Prog (Symphonic Prog), nobody is going to argue with that (I hope!) But that seems to be irrelevant to the question of whether Toto should be added to Prog Related or not. Genesis is not the relevant comparison here at all, but more those bands like Asia, Journey, etc. that are in Prog Related already.
and Saga, (not against anything about Saga but they are also similar
Joined: October 28 2008
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Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:24
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
lazland wrote:
Indeed, but Ivan said they were non-prog albums, and that is to me nonsensical.
It's not nonsensical, it's an opinion.
I'm sure that if you ask 100 persons in prog Archives, 60 o 70 will believe that post Abacab albums are POP 10 or 20 will tell you that everything after W&W is POP and only a few will believe that late Genesis albums are Prog.
Your opinion is not the only one that makes sense.
Iván
It is indeed an opinion, a nonsensical one. Even the band's harshest critics accept that there are pure prog tracks on all the albums you mention. The commercial ones were also written with a prog sensibility, which set them apart from a lot of other pop music at the time.
Of course my opinion is not the only one that makes sense. In this discussion, however, it is the only right one
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:24
SouthSideoftheSky wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.
(I know that it wasn't you who brought Genesis into this debate in the first place, Iván. And whoever did was asking for trouble! ). But of course Genesis are icons of Prog (Symphonic Prog), nobody is going to argue with that (I hope!) But that seems to be irrelevant to the question of whether Toto should be added to Prog Related or not. Genesis is not the relevant comparison here at all, but more those bands like Asia, Journey, etc. that are in Prog Related already.
I know, but it's absurd to say if genesis is here despite some POP albums, Toto should be here.
I was just explaining why Genesis is here.
I believe Toto should not be here, because it's a POP - AOR band with no Prog Relation except a couple of tracks that are not enough.
Joined: June 29 2008
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Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:20
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.
(I know that it wasn't you who brought Genesis into this debate in the first place, Iván. And whoever did was asking for trouble! ). But of course Genesis are icons of Prog (Symphonic Prog), nobody is going to argue with that (I hope!) But that seems to be irrelevant to the question of whether Toto should be added to Prog Related or not. Genesis is not the relevant comparison here at all, but more those bands like Asia, Journey, etc. that are in Prog Related already.
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infocat wrote:
you don't go to the door and smash your other eye to make it even. 
). But of course Genesis are icons of Prog (Symphonic Prog), nobody is going to argue with that (I hope!) But that seems to be irrelevant to the question of whether Toto should be added to Prog Related or not. Genesis is not the relevant comparison here at all, but more those bands like Asia, Journey, etc. that are in Prog Related already.
