Print Page | Close Window

Toto

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=87259
Printed Date: February 23 2025 at 06:25
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Toto
Posted By: ProgEpics
Subject: Toto
Date Posted: May 30 2012 at 23:41
Despite their pop hits and catchy melodies I always heard a lot of progressive elements (combining jazz fusion with funk and pop sorta like steely dan). It definately makes them a good band to start someone off listening to before getting into more complex stuff. But I noticed supertramp and ELO on here and figured that toto was every bit of prog as they were. Prog related section?





-------------
Come on you target for faraway laughter,
Come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!



Replies:
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: May 30 2012 at 23:59
I feel like its all prog related but that last song is pretty dang prog- the live one.


Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: May 31 2012 at 01:17
I agree with this one. A good candidate for prog-related, at least.


Posted By: Lima96
Date Posted: May 31 2012 at 01:40
Yep. Their last album is way heavier and closer to prog than anything else the band had done before. That's the least it takes for a band to be included in prog-related, isn't it?

Yes, and the "Falling In Between" song is a truly killer one.


Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: May 31 2012 at 04:23
We've discussed Toto again and again for a loooooong while and I guess they might have been rejected even for Prog-Related already.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20318" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20318
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22013" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22013
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28369" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28369
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56957" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56957
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=60626" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=60626
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=81255" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=81255

They cannot find any place in PA anyhow, methinks. 

-------------
http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 31 2012 at 12:29
Thread dejavoodoo.

I have to say, I was never particularly interested in the band but of course know their hits.  I do have the Dune soundtrack. Big smile


-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: ProgEpics
Date Posted: May 31 2012 at 12:37
Their first album was one I grew up listening to, and even if the time sigs aren't mind blowing they were great chord writers. Go and look at the chords on the first album, very jazzy despite the pop melodies on top of them. And besides they were killer at their instruments, especially lukather. I would also say that their hits are some of the best hits on the radio, very good melody writing.

-------------
Come on you target for faraway laughter,
Come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!


Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: May 31 2012 at 12:44
Originally posted by DamoXt7942 DamoXt7942 wrote:

We've discussed Toto again and again for a loooooong while and I guess they might have been rejected even for Prog-Related already. 

I don't know about Toto, but just because a band has been suggested and discussed several times doesn't mean that they have ever been formally evaluated.

Again, I don't know about Toto, I've barely ever heard them to be honest, but the mere fact that they have been suggested and discussed several times should indicate that they are, at least potentially relevant. 



Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: May 31 2012 at 13:08
they do have Miles Davis as a guest musician, do i need to say more

and Jon Anderson sings backingvocals on a Toto song and Ian Anderson plays a wicked flute solo on the album Falling in Between song Hooked


-------------


Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: May 31 2012 at 14:27
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

 Jon Anderson sings backingvocals on a Toto song and Ian Anderson plays a wicked flute solo on the album Falling in Between song Hooked

I need to hear that!


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: May 31 2012 at 14:34
in the bridge its Ian Anderson



in the chorus of this song Jon is joyining in with the boys


this is with Miles Davis & David Sanborne


also not really an argument for an inclusion but this is the original take for this song




-------------


Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 06:59
 

Sounds cool!

 

In my experience, suggesting a band for Prog Related in the forum like this is highly likely to have absolutely no result. As has been pointed out above, Toto have been suggested several times before and nothing has happened. I don’t know this band, and will not take a stand until I have heard more of their material, but I can advise you, if you really mean business with your suggestion, that you will need to find a special collaborator who is willing to support the case and have him or her send a private message to one of the admins. Otherwise, this thread will very quickly go the same way as all of those other ones about Toto – i.e. into oblivion.  

 
(And I absolutely do not mean this as a critique of the site or the admins, they do a great job. I’m just saying that if one wants something done, one has to be active and persistent)


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 08:57
Well, it is a tricky case. They are AOR-related for sure, but it is unquestionable that they are also prog-related (they have one or two overtly prog songs on each album, and most of their members played in prog rock projects, during prog's heydays or during prog's revival).
 
I wouldn't be surprised to see them in the prog-related section of PA. And as Cédric recalled, they were discussed several times for inclusion, which means that a lot of prog afficionados believe they have something related to prog.
 


-------------
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 11:14

Aginor, you might have your man ^


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 11:19
^
I like TOTO, not because they might be prog-related, but because they play really good stuff. One of the rare AOR bands that never disappoints you.

-------------
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 11:30
we are awere of our loyalty towards Toto, the album Tambu is a interesting listen to those interested in a bit different Toto album pretty eclectic and dark,

Kingdom of Desire even darker and grittier, some awesome, almoust grungy riffs, and soem airy sound as well, pretty epic in hole, and mix of hard rock, aor, heavy prog, well eh grunge, and jazz fusion

from 90s onwards Toto is more ambitious and eclectic, and more indi-band, by the way they create album more after teir own interest not after what record companies or the public wants, the four albums from 1992, to 2006 are the more progy albums overall, in terms of progy aproach,but also the 80s albums and the two 70s albume (who is a edgyer versions of Steely Dan, ), are more varied but also more refiened and sophisticated but with a goal to show what they ar e made of, jumping from album to album and change style and sound between each album which sort of alinated them, couse they could change styles on a whim, on a blink and genres, often incorporates 4-5 styles of music on each album, they play rock, pop, soul, funk, jazz, blues, country, fusion,prog, new-wave, movie score, effortlessly,

I know if they wanted to they could carbon copy any Yes track and play it as good as Yes, (a good session musiciian should be able to do so), or Genesis for that matter, I think they even could do Crimson with some small changes

look at their take on Beatles, Cream, Elton John and Stevie Wonder



even with a odd-time shift


epic


also grand







-------------


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 11:37
Also a fan, but I don't think they belong on here. Sorry Agi, but that's how I feel. I adore Joy Division, but I can't see them featured here either - even if I can spot the openly art work eccentricities Closer had. Progressive in the same sense as Dead Can Dance were in the 80s although sounding completely different. 

With Toto, I just feel they are too much of a straight up rock band, and a brilliant one at that. 


-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 11:41
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I adore Joy Division, but I can't see them featured here either - even if I can spot the openly art work eccentricities Closer had. Progressive in the same sense as Dead Can Dance were in the 80s although sounding completely different. 
 
aren't dead can dance in PA ?


-------------
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 11:43
i did not start this thread i only post videos and write objectivly about thier musical abilaty not thier prog apeal or not,, i just like the band but i don't think they are fully prog, but a band with occational prog songs, and with a groop of musicians which is on level with a good prog band, but are not prog per see, and i have never said so ether, they are an eclectic rock band but not a prog rock band,



-------------


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 11:55

I wouldn't mind seeing them under Prog Related and many more seems to have the same opinion.

I don't remember any other band suggested or referenced on PA as often as Toto and have often wondered who/what stops them for being here. Apparently it's the few individuals of the prog teams against the abundant non-team members - I respect this procedure by the way, but it's very strange in this case that they are not here.


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 11:57

I wouldn't mind seeing them under Prog Related and many more seem to have the same opinion.

I don't remember any other band suggested or referenced on PA as often as Toto and have often wondered who/what stops them for being here. Apparently it's the few individuals of the prog teams against the abundant non-team members - I respect this procedure by the way, but it's very strange in this case that they are not here.


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 12:02
Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I adore Joy Division, but I can't see them featured here either - even if I can spot the openly art work eccentricities Closer had. Progressive in the same sense as Dead Can Dance were in the 80s although sounding completely different. 
 
aren't dead can dance in PA ?


Yep, but I think that's because of the path they decided to go when they did Aieon and Into the Labyrinth, but I am only making a guess here.
Within the Realm of a Dying Sun is what I personally consider as progressive music and ten times more forward thinking and timeless than what came later, - of course only my opinion though, but it ain't prog rock.


-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 12:12
i think Lukather solo is more progressive and more related to prog/fusion

-------------


Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 17:42
Toto seems to be that middle ground where they aren't quite a prog band, but they certainly aren't Aerosmith or Journey... but I think that would make them prog-related. I don't see why they wouldn't be.

-------------
http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/



wtf


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 17:47
This is pure prog-rock :


-------------
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 17:51
*Seriouslly with that song alone they should at least be in prog related... I want to hear someone explain how that song isn't at least HEAVILY influenced by prog. And while parts of the song don't sound completely prog, I feel like it's pretty much impossible to say this is not prog-related.

-------------
http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/



wtf


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 17:54
^
Believe me or not, the first time I heard this song was on the now defunct french prog rock radio broadcast "progression".

-------------
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 18:03
three songs i think is progy



this one more not clear but i think Isoloation is Totos most technical album

and this song is the most technical of them





-------------


Posted By: ProgEpics
Date Posted: June 03 2012 at 00:12
Better worlds is pure prog, mindfields is a hell of an album. An nobody on here can truely say that breakfast in america (the entire album) is even close to being prog yet supertramp made it on here. Crime of the century is also not fully prog. I love supertramp but my point is, if they are prog then toto is just as proggy as they are.

-------------
Come on you target for faraway laughter,
Come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!


Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: June 03 2012 at 00:49
^Crime of the century is fully prog to me in the way that Toto is in the sense that they pull in and out of prog, and many of their melodies are structured in a similar way to most prog. But everyone seems to always say that "if X is prog, then Y is prog" arguments aren't valid. What I can say though is that both those bands sound at least prog-related to meemee.
 
And imo if a group releases one album that is pure badass prog and 6 albums of Coldplay and Justin Beiber mix medleys, they should still be at least in prog related haha


-------------
http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/



wtf


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 07 2012 at 03:25
question regarding Totos bio on Progfreak,

why does it stop at 2002 for band status when they have an album in 2003 and 2006 (arguably also one of their most achived albums Falling in Between) it does not seem right and rather clumsy, to be hones, someone with authority in Progfreak should eddit it also the band is stil active it is not dead yet.


-------------


Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: June 07 2012 at 04:20
I couldn't be more against it.

Awful AOR pap, with not a prog-related album to show, and the occasional prog-related (perhaps) sequence thrown in haphazzardly very occasionally.

It would be just as bad as including Foreigner here. Same goo.

Hope the admins stick to their original sensible decision.




Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: June 07 2012 at 04:23
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

question regarding Totos bio on Progfreak,

why does it stop at 2002 for band status when they have an album in 2003 and 2006 (arguably also one of their most achived albums Falling in Between) it does not seem right and rather clumsy, to be hones, someone with authority in Progfreak should eddit it also the band is stil active it is not dead yet.
Because their latest album (added in ProgFreak) released in 2002. LOL


-------------
http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: June 07 2012 at 21:29
Curse you all.  This caused me to have a dream of being at a Toto concert.  They played whatever that song is that someone posted a video of here, followed by "Hold the Line".
Confused


-------------
--
Frank Swarbrick
Belief is not Truth.


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 07 2012 at 23:32
i wouldnt mind dreaming of a Toto concert Thumbs Up

-------------


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 08 2012 at 00:22
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing them under Prog Related and many more seem to have the same opinion.

I don't remember any other band suggested or referenced on PA as often as Toto and have often wondered who/what stops them for being here. Apparently it's the few individuals of the prog teams against the abundant non-team members - I respect this procedure by the way, but it's very strange in this case that they are not here.

Toto, Boston and similar bands have been suggested repeatedly.

In this case the Prog Related team said no, and I agree with them.

A couple of proggy songs don't make them a Prog or Prog Related band, specially when they released so many AOR albums.

Iván


-------------
            


Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: June 08 2012 at 10:55
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


A couple of proggy songs don't make them a Prog or Prog Related band, specially when they released so many AOR albums.

Actually, I think it kinda does. By your logic, Genesis shouldn't be here, because their pop songs are double their amount of prog songs.


-------------


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 08 2012 at 12:08
Originally posted by Failcore Failcore wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


A couple of proggy songs don't make them a Prog or Prog Related band, specially when they released so many AOR albums.

Actually, I think it kinda does. By your logic, Genesis shouldn't be here, because their pop songs are double their amount of prog songs.

Do you know something about Genesis or math?

Toto has a couple of proggy songs in like 20 albums

Genesis has 7 full Prog albums, 2 at least Crossover and one Related.

Now to stop this nonsense always repeated

Genesis has 15 studio albums
  1. From Genesis to the Revelation - Not Prog
  2. Trespass - Prog
  3. Nursery Cryme - Prog
  4. Foxtrot - Prog
  5. SebtP - Prog
  6. The Lamb - Prog
  7. A Trick of the Tail - Prog
  8. W&W - Prog
  9. Attw3 - prog
  10. Duke - Prog
  11. Abacab - Partially Prog
  12. Genesis (Shapes) - Not prog
  13. Invisible Touch - not Prog
  14. We Can't Dance - Not Prog
  15. CAS - Not Prog
This means
  • 9 full Prog albums 60%
  • 1 Proggy album 6.6666%
  • 5 Non Prog albums 33%33 Non Prog

So this is not "a couple of tracks" unless you don't know what the meaning of "a couple is".

The vast majority of Genesis albums are Prog on the other hand 2 at the most 3 Toto songs are proggy

Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.

Iván


-------------
            


Posted By: 1967/ 1976
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 10:46
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Failcore Failcore wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


A couple of proggy songs don't make them a Prog or Prog Related band, specially when they released so many AOR albums.

Actually, I think it kinda does. By your logic, Genesis shouldn't be here, because their pop songs are double their amount of prog songs.

Do you know something about Genesis or math?

Toto has a couple of proggy songs in like 20 albums

Genesis has 7 full Prog albums, 2 at least Crossover and one Related.

Now to stop this nonsense always repeated

Genesis has 15 studio albums
  1. From Genesis to the Revelation - Not Prog
  2. Trespass - Prog
  3. Nursery Cryme - Prog
  4. Foxtrot - Prog
  5. SebtP - Prog
  6. The Lamb - Prog
  7. A Trick of the Tail - Prog
  8. W&W - Prog
  9. Attw3 - prog
  10. Duke - Prog
  11. Abacab - Partially Prog
  12. Genesis (Shapes) - Not prog
  13. Invisible Touch - not Prog
  14. We Can't Dance - Not Prog
  15. CAS - Not Prog
This means
  • 9 full Prog albums 60%
  • 1 Proggy album 6.6666%
  • 5 Non Prog albums 33%33 Non Prog

So this is not "a couple of tracks" unless you don't know what the meaning of "a couple is".

The vast majority of Genesis albums are Prog on the other hand 2 at the most 3 Toto songs are proggy

Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.

Iván
 
But Asia is here. Toto, in my opinion, is the American version of Asia. Or maybe... With more Prog elements.
 
Toto are also mentioned in too many sites/ magazines that deal with Prog for to not be included in PA. (And that's why we are Asia in PA, I think).


-------------


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 11:09
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing them under Prog Related and many more seem to have the same opinion.

I don't remember any other band suggested or referenced on PA as often as Toto and have often wondered who/what stops them for being here. Apparently it's the few individuals of the prog teams against the abundant non-team members - I respect this procedure by the way, but it's very strange in this case that they are not here.

Toto, Boston and similar bands have been suggested repeatedly.

In this case the Prog Related team said no, and I agree with them.

A couple of proggy songs don't make them a Prog or Prog Related band, specially when they released so many AOR albums.

Iván
 
I don't believe the following artists/bands (here in prog-related) have a single prog song :
Toy Matinee
GTR
Asia
John Wetton
Greg Lake


-------------
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 12:07
Originally posted by 1967/ 1976 1967/ 1976 wrote:

 
 
But Asia is here. Toto, in my opinion, is the American version of Asia. Or maybe... With more Prog elements.
 
Toto are also mentioned in too many sites/ magazines that deal with Prog for to not be included in PA. (And that's why we are Asia in PA, I think).

Asia official formation included
  1. Geoff Downes (Yes)
  2. Carl Palmer (ELP - Atomic Rooster)
  3. John Wetton (UK, King Crimson, Uriah Heep , etc etc etc)
  4. Steve Howe (Yes)
For prog icons from at least 10 of the most representative Prog bands.

According to the site's rules, that grants them inclusion in Prog Related

Non Prog site has TOTO included except maybe Proggnosis who has them as Fusion Related (?????????) taht is absurd, because in that case we could add Chuck Mangione or Herp Albert as Fusion Related

Toto has like 20 albums and non of them is mainly Prog or  completely related.

So I insist, I don't believe Toto has a place here, specially uif they are recognized as the most representative AOR band.

Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

 
I don't believe the following artists/bands (here in prog-related) have a single prog song :
Toy Matinee
GTR
Asia
John Wetton
Greg Lake

Toy Matinee: Not familiar with them, but Kevin Gilbert from Giraffe is there
GTR: Hackett + Howe is enough
Asia: I already said it
John Wetton: UK, King Crimson, Uriah Heep are enough?
Greg Lake: The Gods, King Crimson and ELP are more than enough to grant them an inclusion.

Iván






-------------
            


Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 12:08
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

most representative Prog bands.





Clown


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 12:17
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Failcore Failcore wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


A couple of proggy songs don't make them a Prog or Prog Related band, specially when they released so many AOR albums.

Actually, I think it kinda does. By your logic, Genesis shouldn't be here, because their pop songs are double their amount of prog songs.

Do you know something about Genesis or math?

Toto has a couple of proggy songs in like 20 albums

Genesis has 7 full Prog albums, 2 at least Crossover and one Related.

Now to stop this nonsense always repeated

Genesis has 15 studio albums
  1. From Genesis to the Revelation - Not Prog
  2. Trespass - Prog
  3. Nursery Cryme - Prog
  4. Foxtrot - Prog
  5. SebtP - Prog
  6. The Lamb - Prog
  7. A Trick of the Tail - Prog
  8. W&W - Prog
  9. Attw3 - prog
  10. Duke - Prog
  11. Abacab - Partially Prog
  12. Genesis (Shapes) - Not prog
  13. Invisible Touch - not Prog
  14. We Can't Dance - Not Prog
  15. CAS - Not Prog
This means
  • 9 full Prog albums 60%
  • 1 Proggy album 6.6666%
  • 5 Non Prog albums 33%33 Non Prog

So this is not "a couple of tracks" unless you don't know what the meaning of "a couple is".

The vast majority of Genesis albums are Prog on the other hand 2 at the most 3 Toto songs are proggy

Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.

Iván

I agree with Ivan re Toto, but the problem with long explanations is that they very often leave the author open to debate.

In my case, I regard Genesis, Invisible Touch, We Can't Dance, and Calling All Stations as being prog rock albums. They might not be symphonic prog albums, but prog they are.


-------------
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 12:18
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Failcore Failcore wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


A couple of proggy songs don't make them a Prog or Prog Related band, specially when they released so many AOR albums.

Actually, I think it kinda does. By your logic, Genesis shouldn't be here, because their pop songs are double their amount of prog songs.

Do you know something about Genesis or math?

Toto has a couple of proggy songs in like 20 albums

Genesis has 7 full Prog albums, 2 at least Crossover and one Related.

Now to stop this nonsense always repeated

Genesis has 15 studio albums
  1. From Genesis to the Revelation - Not Prog
  2. Trespass - Prog
  3. Nursery Cryme - Prog
  4. Foxtrot - Prog
  5. SebtP - Prog
  6. The Lamb - Prog
  7. A Trick of the Tail - Prog
  8. W&W - Prog
  9. Attw3 - prog
  10. Duke - Prog
  11. Abacab - Partially Prog
  12. Genesis (Shapes) - Not prog
  13. Invisible Touch - not Prog
  14. We Can't Dance - Not Prog
  15. CAS - Not Prog
This means
  • 9 full Prog albums 60%
  • 1 Proggy album 6.6666%
  • 5 Non Prog albums 33%33 Non Prog

So this is not "a couple of tracks" unless you don't know what the meaning of "a couple is".

The vast majority of Genesis albums are Prog on the other hand 2 at the most 3 Toto songs are proggy

Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.

Iván

I agree with Ivan re Toto, but the problem with long explanations is that they very often leave the author open to debate.

In my case, I regard Genesis, Invisible Touch, We Can't Dance, and Calling All Stations as being prog rock albums. They might not be symphonic prog albums, but prog they are.
they are more crossover prog/neo prog


-------------


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 12:21
I agree with the great post Ivan made. Thumbs Up

Toto does not belong here in any genre. 


-------------
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 12:35
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Failcore Failcore wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


A couple of proggy songs don't make them a Prog or Prog Related band, specially when they released so many AOR albums.

Actually, I think it kinda does. By your logic, Genesis shouldn't be here, because their pop songs are double their amount of prog songs.

Do you know something about Genesis or math?

Toto has a couple of proggy songs in like 20 albums

Genesis has 7 full Prog albums, 2 at least Crossover and one Related.

Now to stop this nonsense always repeated

Genesis has 15 studio albums
  1. From Genesis to the Revelation - Not Prog
  2. Trespass - Prog
  3. Nursery Cryme - Prog
  4. Foxtrot - Prog
  5. SebtP - Prog
  6. The Lamb - Prog
  7. A Trick of the Tail - Prog
  8. W&W - Prog
  9. Attw3 - prog
  10. Duke - Prog
  11. Abacab - Partially Prog
  12. Genesis (Shapes) - Not prog
  13. Invisible Touch - not Prog
  14. We Can't Dance - Not Prog
  15. CAS - Not Prog
This means
  • 9 full Prog albums 60%
  • 1 Proggy album 6.6666%
  • 5 Non Prog albums 33%33 Non Prog

So this is not "a couple of tracks" unless you don't know what the meaning of "a couple is".

The vast majority of Genesis albums are Prog on the other hand 2 at the most 3 Toto songs are proggy

Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.

Iván

I agree with Ivan re Toto, but the problem with long explanations is that they very often leave the author open to debate.

In my case, I regard Genesis, Invisible Touch, We Can't Dance, and Calling All Stations as being prog rock albums. They might not be symphonic prog albums, but prog they are.
they are more crossover prog/neo prog

Indeed, but Ivan said they were non-prog albums, and that is to me nonsensical.

BTW, I have always struggled to understand why people describe some of the Genesis albums as neo, as you have done. It simply makes no sense whatsoever, either.

The neo prog movement was started in the early 1980's by a bunch of bands who took their inspiration from bands such as Genesis, Yes, VDGG & etc., but turned those influences into a far different beast, i.e. a new movement in prog, or, as many have described it, a second wave.

Quite how one of those original sources of material can be themselves part of a second wave is rather beyond me.


-------------
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!


Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 12:57

People, take a look at the official definition/guidelines for Prog Related and please let that guide your pro- and con-arguments. That way, some irrelevant considerations and comparisons on both sides could hopefully be avoided.
 

No musical genre exists in a vacuum. Not all of the bands that have been a part of the history and development of progressive rock are necessarily progressive rock bands themselves. This is why progarchives has included a genre called prog-related, so we could include all the bands that complete the history of progressive rock, whether or not they were considered full-fledged progressive rock bands themselves. 

There are many criteria that the prog-related evaluation team considers when deciding which bands are considered prog-related. Very few bands will meet all of this criteria, but this list will give an idea as to some of the things that help evaluate whether an artists is prog-related or not. 

1) Influence on progressive rock - The groundbreaking work of artists like Led Zepplin and David Bowie affected many genres of rock, including at times progressive rock. Although both of these artists created rock music in a dizzying array of genres, both contributed to the ongoing history of progressive rock several times within the span of their careers. 

2) Location - Progressive rock did not develop at the same time all over the world. It may surprise some people that as late as the mid-70s the US had very few original progressive rock bands that did not sound like exact copies of British bands. Journey was one of the first US bands to present a uniquely American brand of prog-rock before they eventually became a mainstream rock band. We have collaborators from all over the world who tell us which bands helped the progressive rock scene develop in their corner of the globe, even if those bands were like Journey and were known more for being mainstream rock bands. 

3) Members of important progressive rock bands - Although most of the recorded solo output of artists like Greg Lake and David Gilmour falls more in a mainstream rock style, their contributions to progressive rock in their respective bands insures them a place in our prog-related genre. 

4) Timeliness - Like many genres, prog-rock has had its ups and downs. In the late 70s and early 80s prog-rock was barely a blip on the radar. During this time artists such as David Bowie and Metallica released albums that captured key elements of the spirit of prog rock and did so while contributing their own original modern elements to the mix. 

5) Integral part of the prog-rock scene - Sometimes you just had to be a part of the scene during a certain time period to understand how some bands fit with the prog rock scene of their time. Although Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Wishbone Ash may seem like mere hard rock bands, in their time they stood apart from other hard rockers with their more serious lyrical content and more developed compositions. Put simply, in the early 70s every prog-rock record collector usually had full collections of all three of these artists. These three bands were very much part of the prog-rock scene without being total prog-rock bands them selves. 

6) Influenced by progressive rock - From the late 60s till about 1976 the progressive tendency was in full effect in almost all genres of music. Once again, as we enter the second decade of the 21st century a melting pot of prog-metal, math-rock, progressive electronics and post-rock influences have once again made a progressive tendency in rock music almost more a norm than a difference. Yet in other periods of musical history receiving influence from progressive rock could really set a band apart and make them worthy of our prog-related category. 
Being influenced by progressive rock is hardly the only factor we look at, and in some periods of musical history it is almost meaningless, but still, it is almost a given that most of the artists listed in prog-related were influenced by the development of progressive rock. 

7) Common sense - Nitpicking over the above listed criteria is not necessarily the correct way to evaluate a band for prog-related. Sometimes you just have to use some common sense and look at the big picture. 
A very good way to describe prog-related would be to imagine an exhaustive book that covered the history of progressive rock. Would such a book include references to led Zeppelin's 'Stairway to Heaven', David Bowie's 'The Man Who Sold the World' or Queen's 'Bohemian Rhapsody'? Probably so. 
- Easy Money

Note especially the absence of any requirement as to the percentage of proggy songs out the artist's entire oeuvre. 
 


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 12:59
^ A very good and informative post, of which I agree with absolutely every single word.

-------------
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!


Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:03
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 

Toto, Boston and similar bands have been suggested repeatedly.

In this case the Prog Related team said no, and I agree with them.


Does this mean that Toto has already been formally evaluated by the admins for Prog Related? Is there any official statement to this effect in some old thread?

I assumed it was the case that they had been suggested repeatedly, but never formally evaluated.  




Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:20
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

 

Indeed, but Ivan said they were non-prog albums, and that is to me nonsensical.



It's not nonsensical, it's an opinion.

I'm sure that  if you ask 100 persons in prog Archives, 60 o 70 will believe that post Abacab albums are POP 10 or 20 will tell you that everything after W&W is POP and only a few will believe that late Genesis albums are Prog.

Your opinion is not the only one that makes sense.

Iván


-------------
            


Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:20
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.

(I know that it wasn't you who brought Genesis into this debate in the first place, Iván. And whoever did was asking for trouble! Smile). But of course Genesis are icons of Prog (Symphonic Prog), nobody is going to argue with that (I hope!) But that seems to be irrelevant to the question of whether Toto should be added to Prog Related or not. Genesis is not the relevant comparison here at all, but more those bands like Asia, Journey, etc. that are in Prog Related already.





Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:24
Originally posted by SouthSideoftheSky SouthSideoftheSky wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.

(I know that it wasn't you who brought Genesis into this debate in the first place, Iván. And whoever did was asking for trouble! Smile). But of course Genesis are icons of Prog (Symphonic Prog), nobody is going to argue with that (I hope!) But that seems to be irrelevant to the question of whether Toto should be added to Prog Related or not. Genesis is not the relevant comparison here at all, but more those bands like Asia, Journey, etc. that are in Prog Related already.




I know, but it's absurd to say if genesis is here despite some POP albums, Toto should be here.

I was just explaining why Genesis is here.

I believe Toto should not be here, because it's a POP - AOR band with no Prog Relation except a couple of tracks that are not enough.

Iván


-------------
            


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:24
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

 

Indeed, but Ivan said they were non-prog albums, and that is to me nonsensical.



It's not nonsensical, it's an opinion.

I'm sure that  if you ask 100 persons in prog Archives, 60 o 70 will believe that post Abacab albums are POP 10 or 20 will tell you that everything after W&W is POP and only a few will believe that late Genesis albums are Prog.

Your opinion is not the only one that makes sense.

Iván

It is indeed an opinion, a nonsensical one. Even the band's harshest critics accept that there are pure prog tracks on all the albums you mention. The commercial ones were also written with a prog sensibility, which set them apart from a lot of other pop music at the time. 

Of course my opinion is not the only one that makes sense. In this discussion, however, it is the only right oneEvil Smile


-------------
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:25
Originally posted by SouthSideoftheSky SouthSideoftheSky wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.

(I know that it wasn't you who brought Genesis into this debate in the first place, Iván. And whoever did was asking for trouble! Smile). But of course Genesis are icons of Prog (Symphonic Prog), nobody is going to argue with that (I hope!) But that seems to be irrelevant to the question of whether Toto should be added to Prog Related or not. Genesis is not the relevant comparison here at all, but more those bands like Asia, Journey, etc. that are in Prog Related already.



and Saga, (not against anything about Saga but they are also similar


-------------


Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 13:47
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

Originally posted by SouthSideoftheSky SouthSideoftheSky wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Toto has no place here, Genesis is an icon of Prog.

(I know that it wasn't you who brought Genesis into this debate in the first place, Iván. And whoever did was asking for trouble! Smile). But of course Genesis are icons of Prog (Symphonic Prog), nobody is going to argue with that (I hope!) But that seems to be irrelevant to the question of whether Toto should be added to Prog Related or not. Genesis is not the relevant comparison here at all, but more those bands like Asia, Journey, etc. that are in Prog Related already.



and Saga, (not against anything about Saga but they are also similar

Well, Saga is listed in Crossover (and rightly so, I think).
I actually think that Asia should be in Crossover too.

Relevant comparisons for Toto might perhaps be Ambrosia, FM, Journey, Magnum, and Styx



Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 14:27
Originally posted by SouthSideoftheSky SouthSideoftheSky wrote:

 

Relevant comparisons for Toto might perhaps be Ambrosia, FM, Journey, Magnum, and Styx


Fritz, as with Kansas, people are more familiar with STYX poppy music, but their first three albums before Curulewski left, were 100% Prog, as a fact they did a version of "Fanfare for a common Man" 5 years before ELP (It's called Movement for a Common man), even in albums like "The Grand Illusion", they have Prog tracks as "Man in the Wilderness" and "Fooling Yourself"

Journey, i don't know why they are here.

Not familiar with the other bands

But even if they were wrongly added, a mistake doesn't justify another mistake, if somebody leaves you a black eye, Ouch you don't go to the door and smash your other eye to make it even. Wink

Iván


-------------
            


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 15:16
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:



Journey, i don't know why they are here.



First two albums and the Santana connection.


-------------
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 15:37
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


It is indeed an opinion, a nonsensical one. Even the band's harshest critics accept that there are pure prog tracks on all the albums you mention. The commercial ones were also written with a prog sensibility, which set them apart from a lot of other pop music at the time. 



Since when are you in Prog Archives or any other forum or Prog site?

The general consensus except a few fans is that Genesis went POP, the problem is the moment
  1. Some say after W&W
  2. Some more say after ATTW3
  3. Most say after Duke
  4. A few say after Abacab
But everybody except some diehard Collins fans agree they went POP.

BTW Commercial with Prog sensibility? Confused

Iván


-------------
            


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 16:03
I'm definitely not a diehard Collins fan and I think the albums you call "pop" are quite proggy. Sure there are some shorter simpler songs in there but a lot of Prog bands did that even in their main prog phase. But one man's "pop" is another mans interesting music. Kansas are pretty "poppish" for starters. That is why I think quite a few people here don't like them.

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 16:37
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by SouthSideoftheSky SouthSideoftheSky wrote:

 

Relevant comparisons for Toto might perhaps be Ambrosia, FM, Journey, Magnum, and Styx


Fritz, as with Kansas, people are more familiar with STYX poppy music, but their first three albums before Curulewski left, were 100% Prog, as a fact they did a version of "Fanfare for a common Man" 5 years before ELP (It's called Movement for a Common man), even in albums like "The Grand Illusion", they have Prog tracks as "Man in the Wilderness" and "Fooling Yourself"

Journey, i don't know why they are here.

Not familiar with the other bands

Yeah, first of all, as I stressed earlier in this thread, I'm not familiar with Toto at all (above the odd song or two). Hence, I'm not making any musical comparisons, and I'm not endorsing them. I'm just saying that if comparisons in terms of "degree of progness" or "degree of relevance for Prog" (or the like) are to be made, we should be fair and compare with other bands that are in the Prog Related category. Comparing Toto with Genesis, Kansas, Saga, etc. is irrelevant and unfair. 

I know the early albums by Styx and think it right that they are here. I also think it is right and proper that Journey is here (not just because of the Santana-connection).



Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 10 2012 at 16:46
this song South side, (is not a very progy one) but the drumming is insane



this song is not very far from being close to what Asia is sounding (though recorded in 1977)




-------------


Posted By: mickcoxinha
Date Posted: June 18 2012 at 07:28
Toto? Why not? Every classic rock band is called prog nowadays.


Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: June 18 2012 at 10:23

Ok people, if you really want anything to happen I would suggest the following:

(1) Find out whether Toto already has been formally evaluated by the admin team for Prog Related. If yes, forget about it. If no, move on to step 2.

(2) Take a look at the official guidelines for Prog Related and make a list of facts about Toto that support their relevance for PA in accordance with those guidelines.

(3) Find a Special Collaborator who is willing to take this list to the admins for formal evaluation 

Good luck! (again, I remain neutral on Toto as I don't know them well enough. Yet)



Posted By: big.mo
Date Posted: November 30 2012 at 12:35
Do agree they have a lot of prog elements in their music

-------------
Prog Doc


Posted By: CoolJimmi
Date Posted: November 30 2012 at 23:32
If it is unfair to evaluate them alongside the likes of Styx or Asia who have been solidified as being completely 'prog' at one time or another, then is it fair to compare them with bands such as Journey or some of Dio's work (both of which are already in the Prog-Related section)?

If that is indeed permissible, then I would say that Toto retained more progressive elements and let them shine through more often than Journey, and the bulk of what Dio did was heavy metal, yet both present themselves on this site while Toto is not represented.

I never did think of Toto as a progressive band, but many, many other sources site them as such (last.fm, Pandora, various magazines/websites, etc.), and after exploring their work a bit, I find quite a few full-on prog tunes, and a bulk of their work has progressive undertones and/or influences.

I might even find them worthy enough based on the sheer amount of outside agreement on the matter.


Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: November 30 2012 at 23:42
I don't see Dio here.

And I've never heard a proggy Toto song.


-------------
--
Frank Swarbrick
Belief is not Truth.


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2012 at 23:50
Then lets add Eagles, Dire Straits, Mr Mister, Men at Work and every 70's band that is not here

Said no in all the other friends, I believe they done nothing to deserve a new chance.

So NO WAY, THEY ARE NOT REMOTELY PROG

Iván


-------------
            


Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: November 30 2012 at 23:52
Don't forget Lynyrd (Freebird) Skynyrd!

-------------
--
Frank Swarbrick
Belief is not Truth.


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 01 2012 at 00:07
Toto was rejected on 19 October 2007 at 08:03.

It's in the master list on the CS

Iván


-------------
            


Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: December 01 2012 at 02:40
Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Don't forget Lynyrd (Freebird) Skynyrd!

LOL



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd. - http://www.webwiz.co.uk