Genesis Better with Phil or Gabriol?

Miaugion wrote:

But whenever one asks proggers about poor Phil one gets the impression that the prog world does indeed reduce him to his Phenix horns, his solo love songs and his freaky Disney spirituals.

Well, I have no problem with him as a drummer, even I believe he did a good job in ATOTT and W&W, I accepted  even  when he did the caricature of Supper's Ready or the terrible version of The Lamb Lies Down, (Down Down Down) On Broadway (Secoonds Out), but it was too much when he was part of those who mutilated the Steve Hackett guitar parts in the same album.

After that he turned Genesis in a POP band searching for the hit single.

His other albums (Starting with the Phoenix Horns) have no relation with Genesis, and the later ones were the chance to make almost a solo career (of ballads and boring tunes) using Tiny Banks and Mike Rutherford as his session musicians.

Compare any post Duke (Even though I hate ATTW3 and Duke) with No Jackett Required, both sound exactly the same.

Miaugion wrote:

Such a reduction is simply one-sided and not the best possible strategy to evaluate the career, talent and potential of a musician who's been helping prog to prosper.

Please helping prog' to prosper?

Are we talking about the same man that said in Genesis a Histiry that Progressive bands fell of the trees as bad apples to be replaced by more imaginative punk bands?

Are we talking about the guy who said  Yes and Pink Floyd were boring and had no merit?

Please, he was only a very good drummer and a barely decent (with only one tone voice) vocalist but a terrible composer who sold Genesis.

Miaugion wrote:

Ah, if planet prog was more tolerant towards poor hairy little Phil - what a wonderful world it would be.

I believe the planet earth is intolerant with Prog' not with hairless Phill who was one of the most POPular singers in the market.

Iván

Go get 'em Javelin Man!

Now you know why the natives were hunting me

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Compare any post Duke (Even though I hate ATTW3 and Duke) with No Jackett Required, both sound exactly the same.

Nah, you can always hear the Banks influence on any Genesis album. To be more precise: When Collins, Banks and Rutherford collaborate you can recognize a certain Genesis identity on almost all their albums, a dark symphonic melancholy undercurrent beneath the obvious. Collins solo, Banks solo, Mike & the Mechanics and Hackett solo do not really sound like Genesis (with the exception of Voyage of the Acolyte, of course).

The post Duke albums didn’t entirely consist of lightweight tracks. Mama, Dodo, Home By The Sea, Domino, Tonight, Tonight, Tonight, Driving The Last Spike, Dreaming While You Sleep, Fading Lights - they never forgot their symphonic roots and their willingness and ability to write tracks of epic proportions. Now you might say they were just caricatures of their former selves and those epics weren’t better than the vast majority of neo prog acts, Yes clones and Genesis clones of the 80s and 90s. As I don’t think you’re a big fan of stadium-size Genesis I don’t think we should discuss them at all because tastes differ so much and there’s no common denominator.

By the way: You said he mutilated the Lamb with the ‘Down, Down, Down‘? Sorry, I can’t see where you’re coming from.

By the way II: ‘Seconds Out‘ is often regarded as a prog classic. Surprise, surprise, I personally don‘t like those live recordings that much. Taste is a strange thing, isn’t it.  

ivan_2068 wrote: After that he turned Genesis in a POP band searching for the hit single.

Of course their music had to change when prog was dead and punk was on the map and they didn’t want to bury the band. Yes, Tull, Renaissance, Rush, Crimson and so on - they all changed their styles and embraced the new technology when they reached the 80s. Genesis tried something different with Misunderstanding and Turn It On Again and noticed that there was an audience for tracks like these. It’s only natural for bands to evolve when their members get older, lose interest in their baroque beginnings and sins of their youths and find merit in simplification. Tracks like Man On The Corner, That’s All, Illegal Alien, In Too Deep and Throwing It All Away I dislike with a passion but I can see why Genesis didn’t write Fountain of Salmacis Part II in the 80s.

As an alternative they could have disbanded the band when Hackett left. But no - they carried on producing albums as a trio. I think Collins was the driving force that guaranteed that they wouldn’t cease to exist. He didn’t ruin the band. He kept it alive.

ivan_2068 wrote: Please helping prog' to prosper?

Up to ATTWT ... yes! Don’t you think that even the first three Collins-Genesis albums had an influence on the second and third waves of prog in the 80s and 90s?

ivan_2068 wrote: who sold Genesis

He sold albums, not Genesis.

ivan_2068 wrote: I believe the planet earth is intolerant with Prog' not with hairless Phill who was one of the most POPular singers in the market.

I wrote "planet prog", not "planet earth".

Peter Rideout wrote: After we're done with Phil, let's go after corporate mega-polluters and ethnic cleansers....

Miaugion wrote:

The post Duke albums didn’t entirely consist of lightweight tracks. Mama, Dodo, Home By The Sea, Domino, Tonight, Tonight, Tonight, Driving The Last Spike, Dreaming While You Sleep, Fading Lights - they never forgot their symphonic roots and their willingness and ability to write tracks of epic proportions

 None of those songs is symphonic or prog' and please don't mention theterrible Mama, the most underrated repetitive and boring track ever released. Phil Collins tries to give emption screaming without sense and making a laughing sound that's annoying. horrible track

Epic Proportions???  Please, Musical Box, Cinema Show, Supper's Ready, Can Utility and the Coastliners or even One for the Vine and Eleventh Earl of Mar are songs of epic proportions, that are remembered 30+ years after, nobody except hardcore POP Genesis fans remember the ones you mention, even when they had millions of fans on those days.

Of course their music had to change when prog was dead and punk was on the map and they didn’t want to bury the band. Yes, Tull, Renaissance, Rush, Crimson and so on - they all changed their styles and embraced the new technology when they reached the 80s.

Of course they changed, King Crimson released Discipline, Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair, not the best of their repertoire but always complex and interesting, searching for the new sound not for the hit single

Jethro Tull released albums as In The Crest of the Knave, weaker than the previous, but the Jethro Tull sound is there.

Yes during the Rabin years did the same as Genesis, but not so low.

Renaissance only released 2 albums during the 80's, Time Line (good and folky as everyone) and Camera Camera which was crap and they had the commosn sense to call it a day.

Pink Floyd released The Final Cut which is good enough and sounds like Floyd, A Momentary Lapse of Reason, which has very good songs like Dogs of War, Learning to Fly, On the Turning Away, which also has the classic Pink Floyd sound even without Waters.

If you notice those bands had the good taste to release only a couple of albums instead of recording lots of POP just to sell, lets see what Genesis did in the 80's.

Genesis: Duke wich had some moments (But also Please Don't Askand Misunderstanding), ABACAB: Well, not mentioning the Phoenix Horns we have the wonderful Who Dunnit? a perfect piece of crap that even most of the POP Genesis fans hate, Shapes (Genesis) Which IMO sounds as a solo Collins Project and the Infamous Invisible Touch.

Genesis tried something different with Misunderstanding and Turn It On Again and noticed that there was an audience for tracks like these.

I don't know what they tried, but I know which audience they pointed, the same one that was buying Michael Jackson and all the top 40's

Up to ATTWT ... yes! Don’t you think that even the first three Collins-Genesis albums had an influence on the second and third waves of prog in the 80s and 90s?

ATOTT was avery influencial abum in Neo Prog', that's true, but it's also a great prog' album, but ask the 90's bands like Pendragon, Anglagard or Par Lind if they are influenced by Illegal Alien or Who Dunnit?

He sold albums, not Genesis.

That's according to the perspective of the listener, but at least we may agree he sold POP albums.

I wrote "planet prog", not "planet earth".

I wrote Planet Earth not Planet Prog, because Prog' is hardly a village.

Iván

Guillermo wrote:

But for me, Collins was more authentic as singer, and more funny telling jokes in the concerts (some Radio shows available on CDs show him being a great showman).

Respect your opinion Guillermo even when I don't agree.

Collins IMHO is a guy with only one tone of voice not able to make variations, listen Battle for the Epping Forest, probably not the best Genesis song, but there you can listen Peter making 12 or 13 different voices, creating dialogues with himself.

Peter also transmits strong emotions, listen In the Cage, the listener can feel the pain, anger, claustrophobia and fear that Rael felt inside the cage, tha's whet I believe a vocalist must do.

The best examples of Phil Collins lack of class are in Supper's Ready (Willows Farm) when he tries to make the impressions that Peter did, he sounds ridiculous and in Mama he believes shouting is putting emotion in that crappy song.

Miaugion wrote:

You said he mutilated the Lamb with the ‘Down, Down, Down‘? Sorry, I can’t see where you’re coming from.

Never said that, the repetition (Down, down down on Broadway) is annoying and a cheap resource to cover some vocal limitations but I said Collins and company mutilated Seconds Out when in the remix they almost turned off the volume in Steve Hackett parts, something Tony Banks has accepted.

"Once Steve announced that he was to leave the band:  "We just mixed him out of the rest of the album and carried on!". Tony Banks on Genesis a History

Iván

I don't know about your points...Phill has amny ggod songs and he convey emoti0ons well...Gabril is more artistic but al;l this anti-Phill suff is a bit much. compare Phill to thousands of other artists and he comes out the top. Phill does have to live up to genesis's huge legacy, but overall he did a pretty good job in keeping this band fresh and prodcing at least half-decent songs after all these years. ANd some of them are great!

I know it's better not to answer sometimes, but LMAO, this one is hilarious  Couldn't have said it better.

but overall he did a pretty good job in keeping this band fresh and prodcing at least half-decent songs

Phil would say, please brother speak anything but don't help me

Iván

Well some of Phill COllins songs are not the best I admit but some are great as UI said!