Genesis Better with Phil or Gabriol?
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Topic: Genesis Better with Phil or Gabriol?
Posted By: K00l Prog Guruz
Subject: Genesis Better with Phil or Gabriol?
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 01:12
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I think Genesis was betrter with Phil colins then with Peter Gabril I think that Gabril is not a good song writer like Colins but what do you guys think, colins also has a better voice and he was in the best albums like then there were 3. ------------- "The world is in your hands, now use it." Good'ol Phil |
Replies:
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 01:55
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Phil is a nice chap, but Peter is UNIQUE.
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: zappa123
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 03:21
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And you are Prog guru? |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 05:54
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Phil Collins better than Gabriel... I think Phil Collins started this thread. |
Posted By: Nerevar
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 06:33
I think Gabriel did a far better job than Collins, and I also think you need to sue your english teacher  ------------- "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy." |
Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 09:41
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I think The lamb Lies Down is their best CD
the second best is Trick of the Tail a Phil CD Selling England By the Pound and Foxtrot and Nursery Crime follow. But Phil carried the band to the 2nd best CD in the afterglow of THE LAMB which I would consider one of the 5 best RNR CDS ever |
Posted By: HaroldTheBarrel
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 10:57
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I am an absolute devotee to Gabriel Genesis, always will be! Not to say that I don't like any Collins material... Wind and Wuthering, Trick of the Tail and Spot the Pigeon are all fabulous. But, as was said on another thread, what killed Genesis was the loss of Hackett. ------------- Listen: Your friends have been broken. They've told us of your poison. Now we k now. KILL THEM! |
Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 10:59
| on to HELL |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 11:45
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And then There Were Three their best album? I read similar posts in the Phil Collins Fan Club, there you can find many people who believes this. I'm member of 5 progressive forums, and Phil Collins is the joke in each and every one, the guy should have never left his drums where he was good. Genesis was Genesis with Gabriel, Genesis with Collins was capable of anything like using the Earth Wind & Fire horns or composing Illegal Alien and the aberration called Who Dunnit', Holy $hit, the name of that monstruosity makes me sick. I'm sure you won't get any converse here, let Collins with his Tarzan and Brother Bear soundtracks out of this forum please, I just had breakfast. Iván |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 13:08
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Equal IMO. Up to and including 'Duke' in 1980. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Fragile
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 14:04
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PHil Collins better than Peter Gabriel you are having a serious laugh .Gabriel's pet goldfish has more ability than this sad little pop idol.Gabriel was the glory and the power behind the second best prog band in the business.I am truly sick to death of this odious little man getting mentioned in the same breath as Gabriel. little drummer boy should have remained so. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 14:35
| How easy do you want to make it on us. Gabriel was the creative brains behind the original " prog" Genesis. They should havejust thrown in the towel after then Lamb or changed the band's name although I like Trick and Wuthering. |
Posted By: greenback
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 14:38
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Peter Gabriol is the cousin of Eloy's Klaus Peter Matziol Peter Gabril is the brother in law of actress Victoria Abril
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Posted By: Prog_Bassist
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 14:53
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I like Gabriel era the best, and phil collins era up to and including duke, I also like Ray Wilson era, but if I had to pick one out of all those 3:
GABRIEL ERA ------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhuxaD8NzaY" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhuxaD8NzaY |
Posted By: Fragile
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 14:59
Never judge a book by it's cover somebody once lectured me but I come in from work switch to my fave forum and see this thread and I go nuts even before I've had a drink.In retrospect and calmed down this Guruz person is having a serious wind up I should have checked his words out more clearly well spotted Greenback.
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Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 17:25
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Doesn't matter if this is a fake thread or not. Anyway, I started with albums like Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot. The Gabriel material is magnificent, and I think his solo stuff contains some of the most important pieces of modern music ever recorded. Rather late I discovered how great and musically mature the first three Collins-Genesis albums really are, and the highlights of Trick, Wuthering and Three swiftly became my Genesis faves. Thus, I couldn't decide who's better. Elitist Phil haters should listen to the live version of Ripples on Archives II and see if their opinions are stronger than those passionate vocals raising a passionate song to the peaks of prog. [/pathos] |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 17:27
Well said Miauldson! We hate Collins the man not Collins the drummer. Gabriel will always be the more relevant artist! ------------- 
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Miaugion wrote:Posted By: the musical box
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 17:37
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right...... Gariel less of a songwriter than Collins? Are you kidding? Lets see collins write a "supper's ready"! A better singer than Gabriel? Peter is way less limited than collins who can only do one voice whilst gabriel can do several. Even if you go to their solo material: gabriel still wrote very good lyrics and his melodies were original, while the only good Collins song i can think of is "in the air tonight", even on the two good Collins era Genesis all the outstanding songs are writen by the other band members, the worst songs are collins oriented. I dont think any one is gonna agree with you on this one... because we have taste! ------------- something pretentious |
Posted By: Fragile
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 18:00
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Very well said Musical Box
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Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 18:07
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Right, Gabriel will always be the more relevant and original artist, no doubt about that. But whenever one asks proggers about poor Phil one gets the impression that the prog world does indeed reduce him to his Phenix horns, his solo love songs and his freaky Disney spirituals. Such a reduction is simply one-sided and not the best possible strategy to evaluate the career, talent and potential of a musician who's been helping prog to prosper. He is/was indeed a good drummer and, above all, a brilliant singer. He had one of the most soulful voices in prog as anyone should be able be notice when they listen to the best of the early Collins-Genesis material. Together with Banks that voice could always create a sort of wintery melancholy that is very hard to plagiarize. Romantic, original and not without artistic merit. That melancholy may not be as cool as the Fox and the Flower --- but. Ah, if planet prog was more tolerant towards poor hairy little Phil - what a wonderful world it would be. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 19:04
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Miaugion wrote:
Well, I have no problem with him as a drummer, even I believe he did a good job in ATOTT and W&W, I accepted even when he did the caricature of Supper's Ready or the terrible version of The Lamb Lies Down, (Down Down Down) On Broadway (Secoonds Out), but it was too much when he was part of those who mutilated the Steve Hackett guitar parts in the same album. After that he turned Genesis in a POP band searching for the hit single. His other albums (Starting with the Phoenix Horns) have no relation with Genesis, and the later ones were the chance to make almost a solo career (of ballads and boring tunes) using Tiny Banks and Mike Rutherford as his session musicians. Compare any post Duke (Even though I hate ATTW3 and Duke) with No Jackett Required, both sound exactly the same. Miaugion wrote:
Please helping prog' to prosper? Are we talking about the same man that said in Genesis a Histiry that Progressive bands fell of the trees as bad apples to be replaced by more imaginative punk bands? Are we talking about the guy who said Yes and Pink Floyd were boring and had no merit? Please, he was only a very good drummer and a barely decent (with only one tone voice) vocalist but a terrible composer who sold Genesis. Miaugion wrote:
I believe the planet earth is intolerant with Prog' not with hairless Phill who was one of the most POPular singers in the market. Iván |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 19:12
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^
Go get 'em Javelin Man! -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 27 2004 at 22:35
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Now you know why the natives were hunting me Iván |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 02:27
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WTF? After we're done with Phil, let's go after corporate mega-polluters and ethnic cleansers....
Find a target truly worthy of your hate. Bread and circuses.... ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Last time I checked, he hadn't destroyed all music, & prog went on without him.
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 03:46
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and clowns
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 04:09
Like the EVIL Peter Ride-em-Out Cowboy |
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 06:34
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Nah, you can always hear the Banks influence on any Genesis album. To be more precise: When Collins, Banks and Rutherford collaborate you can recognize a certain Genesis identity on almost all their albums, a dark symphonic melancholy undercurrent beneath the obvious. Collins solo, Banks solo, Mike & the Mechanics and Hackett solo do not really sound like Genesis (with the exception of Voyage of the Acolyte, of course).
By the way: You said he mutilated the Lamb with the ‘Down, Down, Down‘? Sorry, I can’t see where you’re coming from. By the way II: ‘Seconds Out‘ is often regarded as a prog classic. Surprise, surprise, I personally don‘t like those live recordings that much. Taste is a strange thing, isn’t it.
Of course their music had to change when prog was dead and punk was on the map and they didn’t want to bury the band. Yes, Tull, Renaissance, Rush, Crimson and so on - they all changed their styles and embraced the new technology when they reached the 80s. Genesis tried something different with Misunderstanding and Turn It On Again and noticed that there was an audience for tracks like these. It’s only natural for bands to evolve when their members get older, lose interest in their baroque beginnings and sins of their youths and find merit in simplification. Tracks like Man On The Corner, That’s All, Illegal Alien, In Too Deep and Throwing It All Away I dislike with a passion but I can see why Genesis didn’t write Fountain of Salmacis Part II in the 80s. As an alternative they could have disbanded the band when Hackett left. But no - they carried on producing albums as a trio. I think Collins was the driving force that guaranteed that they wouldn’t cease to exist. He didn’t ruin the band. He kept it alive.
Up to ATTWT ... yes! Don’t you think that even the first three Collins-Genesis albums had an influence on the second and third waves of prog in the 80s and 90s?
He sold albums, not Genesis.
I wrote "planet prog", not "planet earth".
No, please don’t do that. Phil is much worse than corporate mega-polluters and ethnic cleansers. He deserves to get beaten even when he’s in prone position, fishing for bitter minnows amongst the weeds and slimy water. |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 07:58
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What some of Phil's supporters fail to realise is that Genesis were a crap, faded, pop band for far longer than they were the prog Rock giants. This was down to him and the lack of balls/ambition shown by Banks and Rutherford. But he was quite obviously the dominant personality. No one doubts his musical talents, surely? A brilliant drummer and a very good singer.For him to so dominate the pop world for a decade coming from the prog rock background that he did is a major, if unpopular (round here) achievement. If you can judge a man from his public persona though, well his lawyers might be watching! Ivan can I call him an obnoxious,egomaniacal prick without being sued?
BTW Willkommen Miaugion! Very eloquently put opinions! -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 12:53
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Miaugion wrote:
None of those songs is symphonic or prog' and please don't mention theterrible Mama, the most underrated repetitive and boring track ever released. Phil Collins tries to give emption screaming without sense and making a laughing sound that's annoying. horrible track Epic Proportions???
Of course they changed, King Crimson released Discipline, Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair, not the best of their repertoire but always complex and interesting, searching for the new sound not for the hit single Jethro Tull released albums as In The Crest of the Knave, weaker than the previous, but the Jethro Tull sound is there. Yes during the Rabin years did the same as Genesis, but not so low. Renaissance only released 2 albums during the 80's, Time Line (good and folky as everyone) and Camera Camera which was crap and they had the commosn sense to call it a day. Pink Floyd released The Final Cut which is good enough and sounds like Floyd, A Momentary Lapse of Reason, which has very good songs like Dogs of War, Learning to Fly, On the Turning Away, which also has the classic Pink Floyd sound even without Waters. If you notice those bands had the good taste to release only a couple of albums instead of recording lots of POP just to sell, lets see what Genesis did in the 80's. Genesis: Duke wich had some moments (But also Please Don't Askand Misunderstanding), ABACAB: Well, not mentioning the Phoenix Horns we have the wonderful Who Dunnit? a perfect piece of crap that even most of the POP Genesis fans hate, Shapes (Genesis) Which IMO sounds as a solo Collins Project and the Infamous Invisible Touch.
I don't know what they tried, but I know which audience they pointed, the same one that was buying Michael Jackson and all the top 40's
ATOTT was avery influencial abum in Neo Prog', that's true, but it's also a great prog' album, but ask the 90's bands like Pendragon, Anglagard or Par Lind if they are influenced by Illegal Alien or Who Dunnit?
That's according to the perspective of the listener, but at least we may agree he sold POP albums.
I wrote Planet Earth not Planet Prog, because Prog' is hardly a village. Iván |
Posted By: Guillermo
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 13:38
| I think that both Gabriel and Collins are good. But in Genesis I prefer to listen to their albums with Phil as singer between 1976 ("A Trick of the Tail", their best album in my opinion) to 1982 ("3 Sides Live"). Their "Genesis" album from 1983 is their worst: I can`t listen to it anymore. From the "Gabriel Era" I like all their albums, but "The Lamb..." the less. Gabriel was more important in the theatrical and stage images with Genesis. But for me, Collins was more authentic as singer, and more funny telling jokes in the concerts (some Radio shows available on CDs show him being a great showman). Gabriel is a musician who always seems to be thinking "Now what I`m going to do to get the fans` attention?", so he does weird songs, weird videos, weird albums, more as a soloist. Many fans like these kind of things, but not me. I`m more interested in the music, not in weird things. Gabriel was important in Genesis, of course. But Collins sang with more feeling and focused himself more in the music and not in the rock theatre images. As a soloist, Collins has some good songs. I have some of his solo albums, but I don`t listen to them anymore. I bought them when I was learning how to play the drums (23 years ago until 9 years ago), so his albums were interesting for me in those years. But since he is working with Disney recording soundtrack albums for them, I stopped to be interested in his music (I don`t like Disney`s ideology which I found as messages for children in the movies; many people can analyze the content of this ideology in Disney`s movies). I don`t think that he "sold" Genesis. Genesis was a band of 3 members, and everybody said "yes" to commercial music. Rutherford and Banks also have recorded some Pop commercial albums ("Acting very strange" and "Fugitve" respectively). Even Gabriel and Hackett too ("So" and "GTR" respectively). |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 15:54
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Guillermo wrote:
Respect your opinion Guillermo even when I don't agree. Collins IMHO is a guy with only one tone of voice not able to make variations, listen Battle for the Epping Forest, probably not the best Genesis song, but there you can listen Peter making 12 or 13 different voices, creating dialogues with himself. Peter also transmits strong emotions, listen In the Cage, the listener can feel the pain, anger, claustrophobia and fear that Rael felt inside the cage, tha's whet I believe a vocalist must do. The best examples of Phil Collins lack of class are in Supper's Ready (Willows Farm) when he tries to make the impressions that Peter did, he sounds ridiculous and in Mama he believes shouting is putting emotion in that crappy song. Miaugion wrote:
Never said that, the repetition (Down, down down on Broadway) is annoying and a cheap resource to cover some vocal limitations but I said Collins and company mutilated Seconds Out when in the remix they almost turned off the volume in Steve Hackett parts, something Tony Banks has accepted.
Tony Banks on Genesis a History Iván |
Posted By: Fragile
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 16:11
| Collin's has no depth to his voice is one toned and is basically just another singer hence the fall into mediocrity after Gabriel left then Hackett but this is old hat .I feel like I'm in Groundhog day.I really do not like this little man.Collins, the ruination of once great prog band.And if he really made comments about Yes then I dislike the little rodent even more.I'm gonna get me a gun. |
Posted By: K00l Prog Guruz
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 18:02
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I don't know about your points...Phill has amny ggod songs and he convey emoti0ons well...Gabril is more artistic but al;l this anti-Phill suff is a bit much. compare Phill to thousands of other artists and he comes out the top. Phill does have to live up to genesis's huge legacy, but overall he did a pretty good job in keeping this band fresh and prodcing at least half-decent songs after all these years. ANd some of them are great!
------------- "The world is in your hands, now use it." Good'ol Phil |
Posted By: slavetothestix2
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 18:13
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i liked collins better. peter is one of the few who would be able to take collins's place, so im glad it's peter. i love them both though! ------------- imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality www.hintstheband.com - www.hintstheband.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 18:17
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I know it's better not to answer sometimes, but LMAO, this one is hilarious
Phil would say, please brother speak anything but don't help me Iván |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 18:18
There is nothing like a coherent sentence, and this is nothing like a coherent sentence!
-------------
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Posted By: K00l Prog Guruz
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 18:25
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Well some of Phill COllins songs are not the best I admit but some are great as UI said! ------------- "The world is in your hands, now use it." Good'ol Phil |
Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 18:58
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toured with phil as a roadie 80-81 and it was quite a
tour, he gave us 2 days off for Oktoberfest in Munich and always treated us great, 2 days off in Paris, on and on. Whitney Houston on the other hand bought us KFC chicken, no blankets in the bus and no days off. I thought Phil did a great job considering the circumstances, did you ever see his interview about the Lamb Lies Down tour, you could see the experience in his eyes as he told the tale. |
Posted By: K00l Prog Guruz
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 19:01
Thats Awsome!! Phill seems like a very kind man ------------- "The world is in your hands, now use it." Good'ol Phil |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 19:28
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Your not Threefates twin brother are you? What a varied and interesting life you've led Dullarse! We should make you lifelong President of the Walter Mitty Bullsh*t Club! -------------
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Posted By: greenback
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 19:42
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That's a serious thread, and here is my contribution:
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Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 19:56
| just an old guy |
Posted By: Fragile
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 19:57
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Collins is only a very good drummer to compare his voice to Gabriel's is bordering on insanity are you serious ?if you are then you have my pity.Collin's voice has nothing it is a very pale imitation of Peter. Are you people on mind disturbing drugs.Have you ever sung?His voice is monotaenous it carries nothing It cannot change it is frickin dreary.It's so light and one toned it's like a cat shagging a bed of nails.Just in from the pub may not have read the last post coherently tryin my best but f--- I really despise the little pop boy.
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Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 20:07
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bought tickets for the Lamb Lies Down Tour in 1975,
it was cancelled in the Southwest due to low ticket sales and lack of interest. The Lamb Died in Texas! WHY MAMA WHY 
Sorry, to rehash the past, wish I had new news but it seems to be sparse pickings for the progressive scene. Maybe the tour was cancelled for other reasons but that was my memory. Greenback did you ever listen to Phil on Brian Enos Another Green World or Adam Ants hit Strip? and thanks for your input on the italian scene, love the tongue! |
Posted By: greenback
Date Posted: November 28 2004 at 20:15
Anyway, nobody here will make 1/1000 of what collins did! |
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 07:10
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Hi Reed Lover, thanx for the welcome! _____________________________ ivan_2068 wrote:
If there was a Genesis reunion I bet it would sound like a mixture of CAS and WCD with thick layers of Banks‘ well-known keyboard paste. It would not sound like today’s ‘pop‘ which is basically a melting pot of rap, alternative rock and nu metal. Collins and Genesis would write the kind of music they can relate to and wouldn’t be pop idols but the wallflowers of pop.
Okay, you used the word ‘mutilate‘ in a different context but the point is that I don’t understand why you think Collins maimed (mutilated, destroyed, whatever) the Lamb with the ‘Down, Down, Down‘ cadence. So thanx for the answer - I still do not ‘get it‘ though. Some people say that Collins is a better and more professional singer than Gabriel. Some people (like you) say Collins‘ voice couldn’t hold a candle to Gabriel’s voice. Opinion vs. opinion. I mean this could go on and on and on without any results. I think I can totally agree that Gabriel’s voice is pretty unique and magic (at times) but that doesn’t make Collins a dilettante with ‘vocal limitations‘. Collins enriched the European sound of the band with American influences, mainly influences rooted in ‘black music‘ (his soulful singing skills, his talent as a fusion drummer [Brand X]). Well, the ‘Down, Down, Down‘ was such an ‘American‘ (soul, funk) addition which made the melody more colourful. You think it was annoying, I think it was a fine addition. Let’s leave it at that, there’s no need to discuss it any further. All I can say (again) is this: do yourself a favour and listen to Ripples live on Archives II. When Collins is in fine form his emotionality is up there with Steve Walsh‘s and Ted Leonard‘s (Enchant).
Yes, epic proportions, complex tracks deviating from the easily sellable pop single format. Even the megaseller Invisible Touch had at least 25 minutes of relatively complex music (Tonight, Tonight, Tonight, Domino and The Brazilian - that’s more than half the album!) you couldn’t classify as ‘middle of the road‘. Mama invaded the charts like a nightmare and sat like a vulture between Culture Club, Spandau Ballet and UB40 to remind the zeitgeist obsessed teens of the visionaries of the past decade. And Fading Lights should‘ve been aptly titled "Ripples, 2nd Movement" (similar melody, similar structure, similar depth). It’s one of those tracks that made me realise that I really don’t need most of today’s derivative neo prog bands. Would you say Seven Stones, Harold the Barrel, Harlequin and Happy The Man were unbelievable Prog masterpieces whereas Genesis‘ more recent epics were brainless pop?
Tull released albums like A, Broadsword and the Beast, Under Wraps, Crest of a Knave, Rock Island and Catfish Rising which had nothing to do with Tull’s defining moments (e.g. Aqualung, Thick as a Bick, A Passion Play, Minstrel in the Gallery or maybe even Songs from the Wood and Heavy Horses). Tull began to experiment with electronic gadgets and drum computers because such things were the latest craze, and after that they became a Dire Straits copy. Nevertheless I think Rock Island is one of their most atmospheric and musically mature recordings (listen to the instrumental sections and Barre’s guitar! woah!).
... "but not so low" ~> really a matter of taste, isn’t it. For me, personally, tracks like Dodo, Me and Sarah Jane, Home by the Sea, Tonight, Domino and Fading Lights were more interesting and relevant than anything Yes recorded after Going for the One - anything between the late 70s and today. Of course that doesn’t mean that post GFTO Yes were utter crap or that Rabin ‘ruined the band‘.
Maybe they would have carried on releasing albums if their new music had been successful?
Well, I’m not sure. I think The Final Cut sounds like a Waters solo album and A Momentary Lapse of Reason was clearly a child of the 80s and not really the classic Floyd sound. A few atmospheric intros don’t make a typical Floyd album (Is there a typical Floyd album at all?). Having said that, I agree completely that there are some very good songs on that album. But I bet you wouldn’t agree that there are some pretty good songs on Abacab, Invisible Touch and We Can’t Dance.
Agreed. Apart from Mama, Home by the Sea, Silver Rainbow and, yes, It’s Gonna get Better (the live version on Archives II is rather okay!) there a some songs on that album which sound a bit like the unimaginative and sometimes faceless side of Collins‘ solo stuff. Just like you I don’t like them that much. But such opinions based on musical taste do not make Collins a monster who ruined the band. As Guillermo said - and as I’ve said implicitely above - he didn’t force the other members to write music they didn’t like. Banks and Rutherford both had a soft spot for "poppier" compositions too as you will detect when you listen to their solo stuff. Even Hackett dared to release albums like Cured and Highly Strung which were - IMO - nearly unlistenable. The late Genesis had much better and much more effective songwriting skills. Apart from that one cannot say Collins used the others as his backing band on albums like Abacab and Genesis because, basically, these albums were the results of extensive jams as a trio.
Yes, but I’d say ATOTT, Wuthering and ATTWT were all very influencial albums, not only ATOTT. Even Duke was influencial (~> Ilúvatar). Maybe it’s a subjective observation but I think most of the Gabriel era tracks haven’t aged terribly well. They sound like children of the early 70s whereas the first three Collins era albums convey a certain aroma of timelessness. When I listen to Dance on a Volcano, Mad Man Moon, Ripples (live!), Eleventh Earl of Mar, One for the Vine, In that Quiet Earth, Afterglow, Blood on the Rooftops and the mighty Los Endos I get the impression that prog couldn’t be any better, more versatile or more mature. One of the main reasons might be that Collins was ‘singing‘ instead of ‘acting‘.
Hmm, why do you mention the self-ironical Illegal Alien and the totally uncommercial, experimental track Who Dunnit? Unaccessible tracks like Keep it Dark and Who Dunnit (which btw. could have been Gabriel solo tracks from albums like Scratch or Melt) could have been Genesis‘ commercial suicide and it's clear that they didn't influence anyone. Abacab was probably their most experimental and daring release ever! (though I don’t like most of it that much - but that doesn’t matter) Back to the original question. Phil or Peter? Just imagine Pete would have stayed in the band. Only for a moment. And now please look at the tracklist of the alternative Invisible Touch by Gabriel’s Genesis, the band that released The Musical Box, The Cinema Show and Supper’s Ready: >>> Red Rain, Sledgehammer, That Voice Again, Don’t Give Up, In Your Eyes, Mercy Street, Big Time, We Do What We’re Told, This Is the Picture <<< + Banks‘ very melodic keyboard paste and Rutherford’s own lovely self (with Waiting for the Big One, Exposure, Perspective, Games Without Frontiers, I Have the Touch, DIY, Home Sweet Home, A Wonderful Day in a One-Way World, I Don’t Remember, Kiss of Life, Animal Magic, Not One of Us, Biko, some barber shop song like Excuse Me and In the Cage occasionally occuring in the tour setlists) Gosh, Peter Gabriel #2 clearly ruined Genesis #2 in the 80s and sold it to the pop dogs! What I want to express is that professional popular musicians often have to change their styles since their own musical tastes develop and since it’s important to stay in touch with their contemporary surroundings. Even with Gabriel in the band the stylistic development would have been inevitable. His 80s material was clearly post-punk material that wouldn’t have been possible without the musical revolution in the late 70s/early 80s. Probably the alternative 80s Genesis would have sounded less melodic due to Gabriel‘s less melodic and less groovy approach (no, I wouldn’t call it a ‘vocal limitation‘ Genesis‘ career was never stagnant but a river of constant change. There’s something for everyone in their repertoire. If you really don’t like anything of the post Duke material, that’s okay, fair enough as tastes differ. But if you say ‘Collins has ruined the band‘ I could never agree since you seem to ignore the circumstances. After the departures of Gabe and Hackett he invested all his talents to guarantee the band’s survival. Genesis couldn’t have survived with a different frontman (from outside the band) since the audience probably wouldn’t have accepted him and since the band members themselves were used to each other and liked to stick to their ‘family‘ atmosphere. Even Stuermer and Thompson both had no chance of becoming members of the songwriting team. The End. Sorry for the lenghty novel and the freaky grammar. Written. Done. Now for something completely different, e.g. a cup of coffee. |
Posted By: ShrinkingViolet
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 07:19
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http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZZzebYYY - Collins is annoying..Collins is a bore..he is an ok drummer but thats it http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZZzebYYY - . There is no way you can consider Collins better fronting Genesis than Gabriel...Genesis & Gabriel. http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb046_ZZzebYYY"> |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 11:26
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Just read your post Miaugion and it's very well elaborated even when I disagree with several parts, would answer it now but I'm taking a plane to Puno with a peace commission (The a$$ of the world in the high Andes) where the people is killing their authorities and the felons in a public plaza. Hope I will be here tomorrow or Wednesday to continue this NOW interesting debate. Iván |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 11:28
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Yeah you go girl, Shinking or not
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Swinton MCR
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 11:30
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Learn to spell sonny - It's Gabriel.... And even though Collins is OK he was the reason that Genesis decided to evolve into a pop band....Imagine a world where banks/hackett had been allowed to produce the first quinituple CD concept .....Each CD an eighty minute epic...(Instrumental of course) It would be called "Five CD's to bore your wifes arse off while you drive to Cornwall"........... Catchy eh! ------------- Play me my song, here it comes again |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 11:30
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 12:26
No problem. (Nice flight btw!) Patiently awaiting your answer. But please don't expect me to play the "Collins defence part" in a very lengthy debate. Due to time and language restrictions I probably won't be able to play that part, I'm afraid. Writing such posts in English is hard work. Also hope there are other posters on here who can contribute a variety of opinions. |
Posted By: tales of topo
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 13:05
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I loved Genesis with Peter Gabriel. I believe their best writing and playing years began and ended with Peter Gabriel's reign within the band. With all due respect to Mr. Collins (who is rich enough not to care what any of us think), I much prefer his drumming chops (which were excellent by the way) to his vocal chops (which I think of as mediocre). I hated the band's songs once they figured it was time to pound out pop tunes for the masses. ------------- I've Seen All Good People |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 13:57
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Funny you say that, we are all in a Progressive Rock Forum, worried for Progressive music and writing reviews of Progressive albums, I know you can't rate genres, it’s only a matter of taste, that’s why I insist Collins Genesis and Collins solo has no place in this forum. There are thousands of forums for POP music, this is a progressive forum. But there are also other sections in this Forum or OT’s where Collins could fit.
I don’t know how they will sound simply because I don’t know which is going to be the lineup (if there is ever one, what I doubt), if Hackett and Gabriel are on, probably will be for a tour with the old prog’ songs and a couple of poppy tracks for Phil to sing. I don’t think Gabriel and/or Hackett will ever reunite for an album with Genesis, they left that stage in the past and if the three men reunite, well, I’m sure it will be more of the same soft adult pop. But this is only guessing.
Sorry, I wouldn’t buy Archives II for one or two good tracks and a lot of ballads,
No epics of course, Happy the Man was a good track that never reached an album (there must be a reason for that) Seven Stones and Harlequin were fillers but still progressive, no relation with POP but Harold the Barrell is a sarcastic intelligent track with a good story and constantly changing music, compare it Was it you or was it me, was it he or she repeated ad nauseam. Not all the stuff by later Genesis is brainless but Who Dunnit? (Which you describe as an alternative non commercial track) is third class POP, two or three chords and a repetitive encore, very cheap and absolutely commercial. Won’t talk again about Yes and Tull because that’s a matter of opinions, but when I listen the crappy 90125 or In the Crest of the Knave I still can recognize Yes and Tull, not the ones I used to love but the spirit is there. Songs like Invissible Touch, Misunderstanding, Follow You Follow Me, Ilegal Alien, or the one with the Phoenix Horns have no relation with masterpieces as Cinema Show, White Mountain, Get ‘Em Out by Friday, Musical Box or Supper’s Ready.
The Wall was a Waters album also so I don’t see why The Final Cut surprises you, and A Momentary Lapse of Reason has all the atmosphere, darkness and classic sound of Pink Floyd, with some great songs that sound perfect played in the same concert with The Great Gig in the Sky or Wish You Were Here, something that wouldn’t happen if you mix Fountain of Salmacis with We Can’t Dance in the same night.
I didn’t mention W&W because this album is closer to Foxtrot than to ATOTT (except for the cheesy Your Own Special Way), Wind & Wuthering is a return to the roots with to semi epics and many dark tracks that clearly contrast with the merrier sound of ATOTT. W&W is clearly a Hackett album while ATOTT is a transitional album, much more friendly than the later one. I don’t see the influence of ATTW3 to be honest, Illuvatar reminds me more of ATOTT than ATTW3. Probably influenced some pop bands but being the actual POP worst than 3 men Genesis, I doubt it.
Please, Illegal Alien is the worse piece of commercial POP Genesis ever released and Who Dunnit? Is anything but experimental, moronic lyrics and repetitive music has nothing to do with experimentation.
>>> Red Rain, Sledgehammer, That Voice Again, Don’t Give Up, In Your Eyes, Mercy Street, Big Time, We Do What We’re Told, This Is the Picture <<< I’m not sure Peter would have saved Genesis, but Hackett probably, I don’t like everything Gabriel did, Sledgehammer and Shock the Monkey are not great tracks, but at least he tried something different to mainstream ballads. Even when I don’t like all his stuff. Biko was a gesture for a great man and a politically oriented track used mostly in the Amnesty International concerts but still I found it as great mix of Rock and African rhythms.
After the departure of Hackett, Collins invested all his effort in creating a SOLO CAREER for him, something he didn’t wanted for Hackett (One of the reasons Hackett left Genesis was because Collins and Co,. asked him to leave his solo career),
Please Miaugion, the old fans hated what Collins did to Genesis after W&W, there were acouple of concerts where he was insulted and Collins told the audience to f*ck up, Genesis created a new database of fans totally different to the progressive one, and the kids who bought Invisible Touch wouldn’t cared who was the vocalist as long as the liked the tune. Just wrote this lengthy post before I catch the plane, I also have some troubles with the language as you, and I know it’s hard. |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 14:42
Christ Miaugion! you write better English than I do! As for Eddy, I think he should continue his education in Germany! -------------
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Posted By: Guillermo
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 15:04
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Well, I still think that both Collins and Gabriel are good, but I still prefer Genesis` albums released between 1976 and 1982. It is just a matter of taste, really. But I read an interview done in 2002 with Banks/Collins/Rutherford in Genesis official website Forum, and I read that they consider as their best album (at least for Banks/Rutherford) the "Genesis" album, which I don`t agree (it is their worst in my opinion!) But Phil said that his favourite album is "The Lamb...", and in other interviews he also said that he wanted a "Reunion Tour" of Genesis with Gabriel and Hackett, and with him on drums only. Obviously he doesn`t want to sing anymore and he wants to concentrate on drums only if a reunion could be possible (which I doubt, really). But I have found that there are not full concert videos of the band playing "The Lamb" live, so maybe a reunion could be good as a one-off tour for making concert videos of the band playing "The Lamb" live and maybe other old songs. A last thing: After Gabriel left Genesis, the band auditioned many lead singers until they decided that Phil could sing lead vocals. I think that Genesis was lucky to have Phil as lead singer, because without him the band couldn`t really survive after Peter left. |
Posted By: greenback
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 18:20
That's pretty interesting: Collins' fav one is the lamb!! This is quite unexpected! Thanks, my friend!
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Posted By: Fragile
Date Posted: November 29 2004 at 19:10
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If it's true I'm shocked! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2004 at 00:30
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Not so unexpected Fragile, he knew after that album Peter was leaving the band and he could take control, a well prepared plan. Iván PS: It's freezing here in Puno and the altitude sickness (3,860 Mts. Over Sea Level - 12,664.04 Feet-) doesn't let me sleep, so I went to the Hotel Internet Café and it was working hope that a scotch will calm the terrible headache. |
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: November 30 2004 at 11:11
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Oh, thanx, Reed Lover. But no, no, it IS really hard for me to write in English. Writing posts is a really time consuming thing, and, oh, the grammar chaos ... _____________________________________________
Good luck! To ivan_2068: I get the impression that most of your arguments can be summarized as: "I don’t like any post Duke (or post Wuthering?) material because Genesis stopped being PROG and gradually became a POP band. Phil ruined this PROG band" (<~ matter of taste) whereas I try to be a bit more objective: "I don’t like the banal side of Banks, Collins and Rutherford (and Hackett) either but I can see that the changes had to happen - so I won’t reproach anyone in the band (Banks, Collins, Rutherford)". I think you do not want to accept that bands develop and can change their fanbase like their underwear, and you do not want to accept that the musical taste of each band member can develop. Banks et al. had to travel from the 70s to the sterile 80s and beyond, and they wanted to stay relevant. Therefore changes were necessary. If they had stuck to the mellotron and compositions like Fountain of Salmacis they would have become a musically stagnant progsaur or a self-parody and they would have released more of the same old songs following the same old formula. Their music would have been completely dated in the 80s. They would have been living in the past. As I’ve said a lot of bands didn’t want to live in the past when they entered the post-punk era (Yes, Rush, Renaissance, [to a lesser extent] Crimson, Tull, even Gabriel and so on). Stagnation can be the death of relevance (and artistic integrity btw.). Just like everyone else Genesis knew that prog was dead in the late 70s. Even if I don’t like a couple of songs by later Genesis I can appreciate that their career was a journey - and what an exciting journey it was! I think that’s the main difference between your point of view/perspective and mine. This Genesis discussion is akin to the Marillion discussion: "When Fish left Hogarth ruined Marillion." The critics seem to ignore a) that the individual tastes of each band member were developing, b) new influences from ‘alternative rock‘ or ‘independent rock/pop‘ found their ways into the songs as bands often like to be mirrors of their times, c) the band members didn’t want to live in the past when they entered the post Cobain era. The main difference between the Marillion topic and the Genesis topic might be that Marillion were already dated in the 80s (although there were no doubt lots of 80s elements in their songs).
That’s the sentence I wanted to hear/read. Even in the sterile 80s Genesis were willing and able to write some pretty good stuff.
I don’t know the exact reason why they didn’t include it on Foxtrot but the story is something like this: They wrote it between Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot and thought it was a nice little tune with hit potential, released it as a single and hoped it would be a hit on the POP market. Even Genesis biographers Dave Bowler and Bryan Dray said that For Absent Friends, Seven Stones, Harlequin, Happy the Man and many many other tracks from that early period were POP songs. Genesis never were a bunch of serious self-indulgent, artsy-fartsy artists but a bunch of self-ironic musicians who wanted to write quality music AND catch the attention of the masses.
Apart from the fact that I didn’t mention Floyd as one of the bands that changed their style completely in the 80s I think there can be no doubt that Learning to Fly, One Slip and Terminal Frost were products of the 80s. But Floyd were a special case I think. Their stylistic changes weren’t that obvious because there was a thread running through almost all their albums: the blues. Such basic forms (like the blues) are never dated, so they kept on working with them. I think you will agree. I wouldn’t want to hear Fountain of Salmacis and I Can’t Dance (<~ I think you refer to the song, not to the album) on the same night. I wouldn’t want to hear I Can’t Dance at all. Why do you reduce the late Genesis to tracks hardly any PROG fan can relate to (Illegal Alien, Who Dunnit, Invisible Touch, I Can’t Dance)? No, I don’t want to hear I Can’t Dance at a gig. But this could be a magnificent setlist: The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, Land of Confusion, Watcher of the Skies, Dodo, In the Cage, Home By The Sea, I know What I Like, Me And Sarah Jane, Seven Stones, Evidence of Autumn, Ripples, Fading Lights, Cinema Show, Domino. Yes, even the brilliant POP tune Land of Confusion because unimaginative straightforward songs like The Lamb or I Know What I Like are also allowed to be on the setlist. The stylistic difference between those tracks isn’t bigger than the difference between e.g. One Slip and Floyd’s 70s material. If Genesis had rearranged e.g. The Lamb and had enriched it with several drum computer effects and the typical 80s sound they could have included it on Invisible Touch IMO.
W&W is clearly a Hackett album while ATOTT is a transitional album, much more friendly than the later one. You didn’t mention it because this wonderful Collins era album was a full-blown prog album in the style of their earlier work? Is this the reason why you don’t call it an influential Collins era album? Sorry, I cannot see the logic ...
Please, Illegal Alien is the worse piece of commercial POP Genesis ever released and Who Dunnit? Is anything but experimental, moronic lyrics and repetitive music has nothing to do with experimentation. Cross purposes here, I’m afraid. Let’s see what I wrote: "Don’t you think that even the first three Collins-Genesis albums had an influence on the second and third waves of prog in the 80s and 90s?" Then you said ATTOT did influence other prog bands. Instead of mentioning that Wuthering was also influential (you didn’t mention it because the album reminded you of Foxtrot, errr) you said Illegal Alien and Who Dunnit had NO influence on other prog bands. Sorry, I don’t get it. Illegal Alien and Who Dunnit had nothing to do with the first three Collins-Genesis albums or prog in general. Why SHOULD they have influenced other prog bands at all? But of course you can call tracks like Keep it Dark and Who Dunnit experimental. Never before had they written tracks with such (as you said) moronic lyrics and such a mass of repetitive elements. Tracks like these were radical experiments with new styles, new sounds and new technological devices. Experimental is not another word for good or interesting. It just means what it means. And Who Dunnit was pretty uncommercial because it had no memorable chorus and not enough hooks for radio airplay.
After the departures of Gabe and Hackett he invested all his talents to guarantee the band’s survival. After the departure of Hackett, Collins invested all his effort in creating a SOLO CAREER for him, something he didn’t wanted for Hackett (One of the reasons Hackett left Genesis was because Collins and Co,. asked him to leave his solo career), Collins‘ solo career started in ’81 but not in ‘76/’77 (if you ignore his work with Brand X for a moment). When Gabriel left Collins invested his talents in the band’s survival. When Gabriel left Hackett invested most of his ideas in his solo effort and only a minimum of ideas in Genesis (A Trick of the Tail). Hackett was very pleased with Voyage of the Acolyte and with the freedom he had as a solo artist. As a result the things he wrote became more radical and he became a loner within the band. He wanted to have more freedom and more control, almost the same amount of freedom and control that he had on his solo effort. Genesis, on the other hand, were a democratic unit, and Hackett didn’t fit into this democratic unit, he didn’t fit into this songwriting team. He came up with lots and lots of ideas for Wind & Wuthering, and lots of these ideas went into that album. But for him that wasn’t enough. Some ideas that didn’t fit to the style of the band at that time were rejected by Banks, Rutherford and Collins because they didn’t like them and there had to be some space left for their own ideas. The result was: Hackett was annoyed as not ALL of his ideas were accepted.
Of course their fanbase changed when Genesis changed their musical direction. This process of renewal is natural since most bands have no loyal fanbase following the band wherever they want to go. But the fanbase didn’t change when Collins decided to do the singing. The majority accepted him at first because he was already a well-known and accepted band member.
Again: Please bear in mind that all the band members, Rutherford, Banks, Gabriel, Collins and Hackett said goodbye to pure prog when prog was dead. Okay, rather late Hackett returned to writing interesting quasi-prog (e.g. some songs on Guitar Noir and To Watch the Storms) but none of them dared to write the "Musical Box" or the "Supper’s Ready" of the 80s. Foxes, Flowers and Elizabethan England were the issues of the early 70s when the band members were 20 years old, but they didn’t stay 20, and the 70s had to end someday, too. Coffee. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2004 at 13:01
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Here we go again Miaugion, you're changing the sense of my words:
We all know the three guys were responsible, but Collins is the visible face and be honest, Genesis sound turned absolutely similar to Collins solo work at the end, Banks and Mike sounded the same as Phil's session musicians, so the style that was adopted by Genesis was the one of Phil Collins. That's why I believe he has the biggest share of responsability.
I didn't mentioned because it's obvious that an album that rerurned to the very influencial roots of Genesis is also influencial in later prog' bands. I consider Selling England by the Pound closer to ATOTT than Wind & Wuthering, which reminds me of the earlier Genesis (Foxtrot and specially Trespass).
Experimental is going fut¿rther, to reach new paths and styles that few or none bands did before, but repetitive chorus and moronic lyrics is something very common in cheap mainstream, if ELP played Thriller nobody would say it's experimental because they never did it before, it would be going pop and cheap, as Genesis did with the mentioned tracks.
Collins always confessed he is a very cold man in his projects, everything was a preparation forhis solo career, and that's ok, Hackett did it, Rutherford also, Banks tried, so why didn't him. Thesad thing is the road he took.
Changes are always neccesary, but Genesis went too far IMO they abandoned anything adventurous to sit in the comfort of the top 40's, that's what they wanted, is clear. Old Yes fans still go to their concerts, Old Floyd Fans also went to every concert until the last one, King Crimson the same, but Genesis has two different kind of fans, older ones who hate what they did after Duke (I even go two albums back), who rather eat rusty nails than go to a 3 men Genesis concert and new ones who don't even know Gabriel was ever the vocalist of the band and don't have the slightest idea of who Steve Hackett is. It was so ridiculous that 3 Sides Live had two versions, one with a fourth side live to reach the older fans and the US version for the USA public (not talking about the USAprogheads) who couldn't listen Watcher of the Skies or In the Cage. Yes fans (for example) were always Yes fans, even during the Rabin years, but in the case of Genesis there is a rupture, two absolutely different databases of fans that don't care for other music than the one they like. To be honest the younger ones don't know early music and already forgot Genesis because most of them are the kind of people who listen what is fashion and forget it very fast. I could bet that in the last 4 or 5 years Genesis has sold many more copies of The Lamb, Foxtrot or Selling England than the ones of Shapes or We Can't Dance.
Nobody is asking that, everything has to change, but again there are more respectable ways to change that abandon any artistic intention for commercial success. By the way, Hackett and Gabriel never said goodbye to Prog' they changed the conception but always explored new sounds and made adventurous albums (Forget about GTR it was crap). Genesis stayed in the search of the charts, that's as clear as water. Iván |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 30 2004 at 15:04
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I'm way behind with this thread, but the Miaugion/Ivan debate is superb. (Welcome Miaugion by the way!) For my twopence worth, I reckon Collin's gets a raw deal from many prog fans. I can disticnly rememebr my disappointment when Gabriel left Genesis, asuming as most did that the band was dead. Even when it was announced that Collins would take over vocals, I couldn't see any great future for the band. When "Trick of the tail" was released, it was as if peace had broken out all over the world. The album was universally aclaimed by fans and media alike. Gneesis continued to make good albums for some time thereafter, before drifting off into the singles charts. The various rockumentaries of the post Hackett band appear to make it clear this condoned by all three band members, and their solow roks form the period lend weight to this. It's unfair therefore to saddle Collins with all the blame. It's also worth considering the way genesis might have gone had Gabriel stayed and Hackett still left. "The Lamb" represented soemting of a shift in the band's msuic which "Trick of the taila ctually reversed". gabriel's solo work indicates that he would probably have pulle dthe band further away from prog anyway. I'm not a fan of Collins as such, and find his solo work to be uninspired at best. Credit where it's due though.
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Posted By: Guillermo
Date Posted: November 30 2004 at 17:48
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Greenback, Fragile and Iván: The interview that I mentioned in my previous message about Banks/Collins/Rutherford`s favourite Genesis album (and about other interesting things) is still available for reading in Genesis` Official Website. I was wrong remembering some things: the interview was done in 2001; Banks`s favourite album is "Duke" and Rutherford`s is "Genesis", but Phil said that his favourite album is "The Lamb...". http://www.genesis-music.com/ - www.genesis-music.com/ In this website there is a Menu in the left side of the main page. If you want to read the interview, just click in the "Band Interview" link. Greetings.
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Posted By: Guillermo
Date Posted: November 30 2004 at 18:06
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About Genesis becoming a "commercial pop band": I don`t know if it was a coincidence, but if I remember well, by the late 70s-Early 80s several progressive rock bands were changing their styles from Prog Rock music to more accessible or commercial pop music: YES ("Tormato", "Drama", "90125"), Emerson, Lake & Palmer ("Love Beach"), King Crimson (with the songs "Heartbeat" and "Two Hands" from their "Beat" album), PFM [when their drummer Franz DiCioccio became the lead singer of the band (what a coincidence! In the case of Marillion, the change of the lead singer really changed the style of the band. Maybe the band as a whole wanted the change, but I stopped buying their albums after I bought their "Holidays in Eden" album.
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