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Poll Question: I love prog, and consider myself to be:
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37 [60.66%]
11 [18.03%]
13 [21.31%]
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2012 at 21:26
Governments are not magical entities, but entities made up of people.
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2012 at 21:51
That also proves the point. 
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Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2012 at 22:39
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by jude111 jude111 wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

I disagree with the parameters.  You cannot measure political persuasion this way.  Dividing into "left" and "right" like this has been an effective way of getting people to accept authoritarianism by drawing arbitrary lines in the sand.  If you wish to view politics as a flat spectrum then view it as a sliding scale from anarchy/libertarianism, at one end, to authoritarianism, on the other.


There are problems with your "libertarianism to authoritarianism" scale. As far as I can tell, there's no difference between Sweden and Nazi Germany - they are both "authoritarian" because they have rather large governments. Unlike Somalia, which enjoys freedom, because they have no pesky government interference, raising unwanted taxes to build unwanted and undesirable wastes like hospitals and schools and electric power plants. That is to say, it seem that on your scale, Somalia *would be* libertarian, and Sweden, Norway, North Korea and Nazi Germany would all be authoritarian to varying degrees. I'm not sure many would agree with this...
 
 
They are all authoritarian to varying degrees.  It's a sliding scale, as I said.  Also, Just a brief article about Somalia
Either way, it doesn't change how flawed the left to right spectrum is.

ClapClap

That's the best I've ever heard it explained, thanks ManofMystery!
And to clarify, Jude111, Libertarianism isn't the same thing as anarchy, which is happening in Somalia and was happening in Haiti not too long ago.  Anarchy is at the very far end of the (both) freedom spectrums, while libertarianism seeks to be as close to that end as possible without slipping into anarchy.
Anarchy isn't necessarily a bad thing. People immediately link anarchy with fire in the streets and looting and that. Anarchy just means, in its simplest definition, absence of government. Absence of government doesn't mean abscence of some legality or some order. Check out anarcho-capitalism (there are other anarchist currents too). 
 
And how, may I ask, do you maintain legality and order without someone to enfore it?
The problem is getting through the simple basic idea that legality can be enforced without a government. People can do a lot of things (EVERYTHING) without a government. A quote quoted by MoM (here in more detail) can illlustrate: 

“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.” 
― Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Please check libertarian threads 1 and specially 2 for more detail. 
 
I agree with that quote, but I don't see how it proves your point.  First of all, I'm not implying that you object to order, justice, and such.  I can tell from your posts that you want legality, so that's not an issue.  I agree that dependency on the state is a huge issue, but I think that government has it's function: specifically, to uphold natural law and to defend the country against invaders.  The issues in your Bastiat quote are all things that can be done without government, but if there is no government, there is no way to insure justice in a society.  The church can take care of religion and mercy ministry, individuals can decide what they do with their own bodies, but if any entity other than government takes on the administration of justice, chaos will soon follow.  Asking for legality without government is like asking for music without musicians, computers without computer technicians, or skyscrapers without construction workers.  Justice and defense is the role of government and it has been for the entire history of the human race.  Like Epignosis said, no government is perfect because they're made up of flawed people, but so is any other entity, whether it's the church, business, or the family.  They all have their functions in society, and they don't carry them out perfectly but they do it better than any other entity could.  Imagine a business trying to raise children, for example.  So also, governments are very flawed, but we're better off with them than we would be if individuals or other social groups tried to take on the role of government.
 
I will check out the libertarian threads (I'm interested; I'm not a libertarian but a lot of libertarian thought makes sense to me), but could you give one example of how justice could be maintained in a society without government?
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2012 at 23:09
One quick one: think of today's arbitration system. Think of today's private guard companies ( yes, the thought of a privatized police has always given me terror but government's police is bad enough already). Now, I never said that absolutely zero government would be perfect, but I just tried to propose a different view of anarchy than the one (common fire-in-the-streets kind) that you gave in your post. This is a quick decent article about the subject. I lost Pat's great link that went into much further detail but all you have to do is search. What I mostly want is for people to open their eyes and realize life can exist without government as we know it. Yes, maybe we'd be better off with some government, but accepting the possibility of peaceful life without government will open doors to at least reducing its size to a more manageable size where it doesn what it can still probably do best and stops being a parasitic entity that feeds off people while pretending to be the one feeding its people. 

Edited by The T - March 31 2012 at 23:12
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Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2012 at 23:49
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

One quick one: think of today's arbitration system. Think of today's private guard companies ( yes, the thought of a privatized police has always given me terror but government's police is bad enough already). Now, I never said that absolutely zero government would be perfect, but I just tried to propose a different view of anarchy than the one (common fire-in-the-streets kind) that you gave in your post. This is a quick decent article about the subject. I lost Pat's great link that went into much further detail but all you have to do is search. What I mostly want is for people to open their eyes and realize life can exist without government as we know it. Yes, maybe we'd be better off with some government, but accepting the possibility of peaceful life without government will open doors to at least reducing its size to a more manageable size where it doesn what it can still probably do best and stops being a parasitic entity that feeds off people while pretending to be the one feeding its people. 
 
That is a good article, although I agree with almost none of it.  I may reply in the libertarian thread shortly.  Tomorrow, probably, I'm about to go to bed and don't want to strain my brain right now.


Edited by Ambient Hurricanes - March 31 2012 at 23:50
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 00:04
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manofmystery View Drop Down
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 00:27
Originally posted by jude111 jude111 wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

They are all authoritarian to varying degrees.  It's a sliding scale, as I said.  Also, Just a brief article about Somalia
Either way, it doesn't change how flawed the left to right spectrum is.


So then, what you are saying is that every country in the world is authoritarian, and therefore to the right of center? Although Ayn Rand might agree, I don't see how that helps.
 
Just looking to break the false left/right dichotomy.  If we stop dividing people into these left/right/rep/dem/etc "teams" then we can have an honest, helpful, discussion about what authorities government should hold.

And how would you create a poll to reflect your rainbow-colored, holistic multi-level theme-parked inter-dimensional 3D political graph? A graph atomized to such an extent would look a lot like the New York City White Pages phone book, I imagine...
 
I wouldn't.  You seem to show a disdain for individualism, by the way.

And how does  that work out in America exactly? It's not like you can vote in rainbow colors. You have two choices. You don't even have a parliament, or multi-parties. (Come to think of it, those in here who have that - I don't hear them complaining.)
 
America is currently under a one-party system as both of the supposed major parties rule in the same way.   Even if you (general you, not you personally) are nieve enough to believe there are policy differences between the GOP and DNC then you are looking at one that promotes economic control and one that promotes social control.  
 
 
 


Time always wins.
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 00:32
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Governments are not magical entities, but entities made up of people.


But what if I'm magic?
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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 01:22
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Governments are not magical entities, but entities made up of people.


But what if I'm magic?

Ergo you are a magnet. 
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 01:29
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Governments are not magical entities, but entities made up of people.


But what if I'm magic?

Ergo you are a magnet. 


I must be.
Who would I be to argue with the sages of our time?

*flashes gang signs* miracles brah


Edited by JJLehto - April 01 2012 at 01:29
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 08:39
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Governments are not magical entities, but entities made up of people.

But what if I'm magic?
Then your last name wouldn't be Lopez but Johnson.
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CPicard View Drop Down
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Points: 10841 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 08:45
This thread lacks of approval of Staline, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot.

Just sayin'.
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 09:55
But Ho Chi Minh and Leonid Brezhnev are rabid fans of it.
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 10:46
"I'm Mirack Obamney and I approved this poll"


Time always wins.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2012 at 14:06
Ho Chi Minh was originally (and always first) a nationalist. I think the West drove him to communism after his wishes were denied.

Point being, he liked Rush.
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Man With Hat View Drop Down
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Points: 166178 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 22:00
Left
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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Points: 118 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 00:34
social libertarian,but i combine ideas from other politics as well most of them all from socialism.

But the best think to do: is that you dont have anything to do with politics,live your life and f**k politics they arent going to change anything. 
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PyramidMeetsTheEye View Drop Down
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Points: 118 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 00:36
dude you forgot vladimir ilich lenning,leon trotsky and few other bolshevists  that i cant remember now.  
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Points: 5575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 00:45
Ron Paul Ron Paul Ron Paul.


The media hates him, so that's a good sign. But reading up he really doesn't have much to offer.

I can see why you libertarians love him so 



And i'm usually leaning to the Left


Edited by topographicbroadways - April 05 2012 at 00:46
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Points: 10841 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 07:53
Originally posted by PyramidMeetsTheEye PyramidMeetsTheEye wrote:

dude you forgot vladimir ilich lenning,leon trotsky and few other bolshevists  that i cant remember now.  


Who? vladimir ilich lemming? Was he a suicidal mammal?
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