Anyway, I'm a conservative, so I suppose that puts me on the right, though the left-right spectrum is very flawed, at least the way the wikipedia article you cited defines it.

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Anyway, I'm a conservative, so I suppose that puts me on the right, though the left-right spectrum is very flawed, at least the way the wikipedia article you cited defines it.

Fair enough. I agree somewhat. For example, that particular quote lists "nationalists" as rightwing, when nationalism historically cannot be reduced to either. (For example, many anti-imperialist movements - usually thought of as being leftwing - were nationalist movements with alliances between many factions, including far left and far right groups.)

Logan wrote: Moved this as it's not about progressive music.

Ah, no problem. This is the first time I created a poll, and didn't realize it was in the "music" category. Now I understand "Ambient Hurricanes"' statement, LOL. Sorry ' bout that

 

They are all authoritarian to varying degrees.  It's a sliding scale, as I said.  http://mises.org/daily/5418" rel="nofollow - Also, Just a brief article about Somalia

Either way, it doesn't change how flawed the left to right spectrum is.

That's the best I've ever heard it explained, thanks ManofMystery!

And to clarify, Jude111, Libertarianism isn't the same thing as anarchy, which is happening in Somalia and was happening in Haiti not too long ago.  Anarchy is at the very far end of the (both) freedom spectrums, while libertarianism seeks to be as close to that end as possible without slipping into anarchy.

OK.  I strongly disagree with most extremist views, both left and right.

I am like the little brother of the Equator ok? Centrist in a navel like fashion. Very close to midway half two quarters.

 

And how, may I ask, do you maintain legality and order without someone to enfore it?

 

I agree with that quote, but I don't see how it proves your point.  First of all, I'm not implying that you object to order, justice, and such.  I can tell from your posts that you want legality, so that's not an issue.  I agree that dependency on the state is a huge issue, but I think that government has it's function: specifically, to uphold natural law and to defend the country against invaders.  The issues in your Bastiat quote are all things that can be done without government, but if there is no government, there is no way to insure justice in a society.  The church can take care of religion and mercy ministry, individuals can decide what they do with their own bodies, but if any entity other than government takes on the administration of justice, chaos will soon follow.  Asking for legality without government is like asking for music without musicians, computers without computer technicians, or skyscrapers without construction workers.  Justice and defense is the role of government and it has been for the entire history of the human race.  Like Epignosis said, no government is perfect because they're made up of flawed people, but so is any other entity, whether it's the church, business, or the family.  They all have their functions in society, and they don't carry them out perfectly but they do it better than any other entity could.  Imagine a business trying to raise children, for example.  So also, governments are very flawed, but we're better off with them than we would be if individuals or other social groups tried to take on the role of government.

 

I will check out the libertarian threads (I'm interested; I'm not a libertarian but a lot of libertarian thought makes sense to me), but could you give one example of how justice could be maintained in a society without government?

 

That is a good article, although I agree with almost none of it.  I may reply in the libertarian thread shortly.  Tomorrow, probably, I'm about to go to bed and don't want to strain my brain right now.

 

 

Ergo you are a magnet. 

social libertarian,but i combine ideas from other politics as well most of them all from socialism.

But the best think to do: is that you dont have anything to do with politics,live your life and f**k politics they arent going to change anything. 

The media hates him, so that's a good sign. But reading up he really doesn't have much to offer.

I can see why you libertarians love him so 

And i'm usually leaning to the Left

Damn you took mine. I define myself as a center extremist. In a way I oppose political "leanings" because when you define yourself as something, your thinking might be warped by your self-definition. A la "I think this, but I'm this, therefore I will find a reason to think like that". 

The left-right situation here in Israel is f**king mental. On the one hand, we have the left wingers- stereo-typically, European descent, High class, doctors and lawyers and Hi-tech people, who believe in the return of the 1967 territories to the Palestinians and believe in a 2 state solution- a Jewish and an Arab state.

The right wingers here are- stereo-typically, Middle Eastern, lower class- who work in less "exclusive jobs" and such. They on the other hand will usually (and I use "usually" very loosely here)- believe in more "aggressive" approaches to the "Israeli-Palestinian" conflict. 

Now as you might have seen, the situation of what defines left or right barely actually has anything to do with something other than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and to a lesser extent these days- relations with our Arab neighboring countries.

There's barely enough attention by the general public to Israel's economic policies. In my opinion we are on the verge of "hyper-capitalism"- with companies and "the 1%" (blaaa) gaining worrying influence over the gov't. We are on the verge of neglecting our economic policies completely. It comes to the situation that the right wingers will vote to a right-wing party, who has right-wing economic policies, just because of the party's security policy. This of course applies to the left wingers as well. 

So what we have now is a country in constant opposition to our governments economic policy and to a lesser extent against the country's security policy. It's a madhouse.

Me? On the one hand, I support the 2 state solution (though, there still lies the question of whether the Palestinian state will consist of both Gaza and the West Bank (even though I have family in the West Bank). There are 5 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. There are 7.5 million Israelis (including Jews- about 6.5 million, and 1 million Arab-Israelis). By 2050 there will be an Arab majority in Israel and the occupied territories. Apart of course, from the humane crimes committed by the Israeli occupation (not that I'm in any way excusing the acts of the Palestinian gov't, the Hamas, or any terrorist or terrorist group in the occupied territories. Some of the acts such as rockets, terrorist bombings, and kidnapping have shown that the Palestinians are just as capable at committing monstrous acts), the demographic situation by 2050 will not allow the continuation of a Jewish state (which in essence is why any Jews are here, really) Israel without literal apartheid-like laws which will abstain Israel its democratic nature. Moreover, it will probably result in massive economic embargoes on Israel, and one hell of a war (not that there haven't been some already.

On the other hand, I find myself on the more right-wing side when it comes to issues like the Arab spring. I found myself supporting a much more quiet change of gov't in these countries, than the direct overthrow of leaders such as Mobarak, and the future overthrow of Assad. Of course I believe all countries should be democratic- but in these countries I really don't think a democratic state can be established. With over half of Egyptians under the poverty line, I fail to see how any new parliament- particularly one filled with Muslim fundamentalists and near-fundamentalists, will be able to establish a country with proper democratic ideals. Moreover, that particularly afflicts Israel, as parties such as the Muslim Brotherhood go against the peace treaty with Israel- and I really don't want to know what happens when another war between Israel and Egypt happens.

On the economic side, currently I'm on the left-center side of things. Each economic policy and its time and place. The over-capitalization of Israel has massively hurt the middle class and has now caused a major rift between the high class and low class- with the middle class withering. 

Bla bla in these situations the gov't should help the people get the proper support in order to diminish the class differences. To do so, they must tax the rich, and establish further social aid to the people in the lower classes. Bla.

Yeahhhhhhhhhh.... 

f**k

Lenning.... Pyramid, you have single-handedly turned leninism into a verb.

 

As an American I take great exception to this:

 

Those of us proud residents of The Corporate States of America have:

 

The Bay City Rollers (they are gettin a bit old, now...)

Britney Spears

The World's Number 1 exporter of used cardboard

A tiny group of billionaires who are getting exponentially more wealthy while millions more Americans enter poverty.

Two major failed wars which prices of over 1.5 trillion dollars have been passed on to working class American's children.

The civilized world's largest numerical & per capita number of imprisoned citizens

The greatest failed war ever (The ongoing war on drugs)

A new found relgious fanaticism & intolerance that now dominates one major political party.

Best TV show even invented - American Idol

Sarah Palin

A failing health care system...

 

Of all these great things, admit it, you non-Americans are just jealous!   Ha!  Gotcha! 

 

 

Rush Limbaugh is right, all you anti-American euros & communists wanna destroy our great way of life.

 

 

Dear very scary looking Robert Fripp-type person,

 

I read your entire post and must say you have a unique understaning of the complexity of things, Yes, human relations/situations are quite involved and I am not sure if our current system of polarized politics (left-right or democrat-republican) is up for the task of addressing any of this.

 

For me, I am very conservative, I want to conserve our resources and conserve human rights, conserve American freedoms and raise my child how I see fit, Yet I have nothing in common with the USA's modern Conservative Party who want none of these things, My point is: labels like conservative or liberal are worthless and have become a rallying point for peddlers of deceit and discrimination.

 

The rich and powerful use these labels to control politicians to turn each of us against one another while they make billions on wars and laws to benefit only large conglomerates.

 

As far as this topic, this forum, at least for Americans, logically(not my opinion) should be heavily tilted to the liberal side, simply because of prog music and the bands that make it.

 

RUSH (those Canadian heroes) This will not be the preferred band of Sarah Palin or Rick Santorum(running for US President) or Rush Limbaugh or any GOP conservative really, Rush is into "freewill", Conservative USA is about installing a particular type of Christianity and controlling how people act, reproduce, and worship & marry.

 

YES - Uh I doubt the typical American Conservative is a big Jon Anderson peace & love fan.

 

Pink Floyd - I can safely predict that Pink Floyd - Animals will not be played at the 2012 GOP Convention.

 

Now if this were a Country-Western Forum, I would think the liberals or Democrats would be rare and conservates or Republicans would dominate.

 

@frippism: Having observed the Arab-Israeli conflict since the late 1960's I do hope & pray that one day you and your neighbors will have peace.  It would be a blessing if that could happen in our lifetime!

 

 

 

 

That's Tim Smith of Cardiacs in the pic :).

 

dennismoore wrote: I read your entire post

thank you

dennismoore wrote: and must say you have a unique understaning of the complexity of things, Yes, human relations/situations are quite involved and I am not sure if our current system of polarized politics (left-right or democrat-republican) is up for the task of addressing any of this.   For me, I am very conservative, I want to conserve our resources and conserve human rights, conserve American freedoms and raise my child how I see fit, Yet I have nothing in common with the USA's modern Conservative Party who want none of these things, My point is: labels like conservative or liberal are worthless and have become a rallying point for peddlers of deceit and discrimination.

Agreed- these labels are as stupid as they are dangerous. 

You sound more like the Zappa type of conservative. That's a compliment by the way!

 

dennismoore wrote: The rich and powerful use these labels to control politicians to turn each of us against one another while they make billions on wars and laws to benefit only large conglomerates.   As far as this topic, this forum, at least for Americans, logically(not my opinion) should be heavily tilted to the liberal side, simply because of prog music and the bands that make it.

Probably true for non-Americans as well :).

 

 

dennismoore wrote: @frippism: Having observed the Arab-Israeli conflict since the late 1960's I do hope & pray that one day you and your neighbors will have peace.  It would be a blessing if that could happen in our lifetime!

Thanks! I really do wonder how it will turn out. 

Just to shower this whole ordeal with more problems, the fact that Gaza and the West Bank are two separated territories from each other can only increase the chances 3 states (If we all just look back to when East Pakistan and West Pakistan had a civil war where rockets were flying over India. East Pakistan is now Bangladesh), and that's fine, as long as there's no civil war with rockets flying over Israel and such. 

But hey. There's hope. Maybe.  

Are you claiming this bunch of reprobates as your own?

 

 

And I think you'll find we invented that Idol thing

Any description pretty much fails with them. Let's just call them good pop music. 

dennismoore wrote:  About the MiddleEast conflict: As an American who has heard from our politicians why we need to give billions to Israel and all the other countries in the world, I say, like most American's, ok. that is nice, let's see if things work out ok, well that song is now over 40 years old for me and I am at a loss, and I am worried that after so long maybe it is impossible as both sides seem to just do the same old pandering to their own peoples.  Hamas & Right-wing Israelis. I have always thought that Israel is so small and the Arab middle east is so large, why can't other Arab nations give the Palestinians some land for their nation?  I say I am Roman Catholic to show I have no horse in this race, but I would think any Christian should first want peace, above all else. Jerusalem itself is bitterly contested to this day by the 3 prominent Western Religions, Christianity, Islam & Judaism and they all claim the same space as their ground zero.  Seems the only rational solution there is to divide the year in three sections and give each equal time there. (If the Druids also have a claim, then give them Ground Hog Day...) For the Palestinians, well as you said they are so many and will probably out number Jews in a few years, so sharing such a small land as Israel is not possible without constant civil fighting, so... It seems the only solution  would be for the Arab Nations to unite and give the Palestinians their own land.  Jordan & Egypt are so vast, for the sake of peace for their own Arab peoples and the world it would be a small price to pay. Israel is pretty freakin tiny already, these Jews who are hated by the entire Arab world should live in an even smaller place??? Just my $02. from over here in America. I don't see how it can work any other way. I'm not really up for 40 more years of wars, terrorism and billions of US Tax dollars spent.

OK, first of all- the billions spent on Israel by the U.S. each year. Well firstly, I won't lie to you, it is more or less keeping us afloat here. I completely understand why it sucks though, I really do. The fact that I sometimes complain how picky the U.S. can be in international affairs probably makes me the world's biggest hypocrite. There is though a reason to this above the humane mission to keep the Jewish state alive. Politics! Israel, as small, silly, and almost meaningless (rightfully so) to a country a billion (approximately) miles away, but with that, having a strong ally in the Middle East is an advantage to the United States. But more than that, because of the size of the Jewish community, and more than that, the estimated power held by the Jewish community- Israel is a tool for politicians to gain the support of the Jewish community in the States. There's never just a humane, kind, "keep democracy alive!" kind of reason. So do know- that your politicians are unashamedly using Israel as a tool to get votes and develop relations with rich Jewish businessmen. Just to cheer you up as I'm sure it does.

Regarding the Arab-Palestinian situation. Well firstly, the Arab world is filled with different sects (Sunni, Shi'ite, Bedouin in Israel- well not really Arab but sorta, and more and more), which without Israel, would be pretty much at each others neck. Some already are (in Syria the Alawis lead by Assad is pretty much controlling the mass majority of Sunnis in Syria). 

In fact, Jordan is already 30-60% Palestinian (depends how you define Palestinian and who you ask). But to say the least, the Palestinians who fled, or were banished (depends what situation and who you're asking), to Jordan as war refugees weren't accepted with open arms. 

In general, countries such as Syria and Jordan, are pretty much just territories left by the British and French mandates in the area. To say there's such a thing as Syrian, or a Jordanian, in that they sure a national history and unity, is in my opinion a bit of a stretch (I'm sure there are many people who will disagree with this claim). The populations there are generally a bit of a mish-mash of different Arab sects.

With that, in sad truth, no Arab country wants to accept the Palestinians. Well it's not surprising, it would be just like if a bunch of Americans would've immigrated like crazy to Canada because of a war. While Canada will probably welcome them, it will be in hostile and unwelcoming hands- hands that won't be able to support the American refugees financially at all, and won't want to. Well it's not the same with Canada as it is in the Middle East. In the M.E. everything's a bit more problematic.

The point I'm trying to make after all this rambling, is that Palestinians won't be accepted in countries as demographically a bit crazy as the Jordan, Syria, and to a lesser extent, Egypt. It will cause a civilian uproar and the gov'ts won't do anything to actually support these refugees. 

The inconvenient truth, is that if Israel would've annexed Gaza and the West Bank in 1967, and would've more less caused the fleeing and banishing of the Palestinian populations there- we obviously wouldn't have been having this conversation, but in general the world would have stopped caring long ago, and Gaza and the West Bank could have been Israel's, and there wouldn't be a Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or at least to a much lesser extent. It took Israel 9 years to establish diplomatic relation with Germany after WWII. Humans forget, not as much as forgive. Even if the Palestinians would've insisted in fighting for the land (I'm not going to go into whose land it is, because it's pointless argument. The land is of the conquerors. It always is. The truth is that the Jews conquered Israel as much as they settled in it and developed it, and that's just what needs to be done to establish a country for people with no real land. Again, sad and unfair, but true), their struggle would've lost steam long ago.  

But a military occupation was established and we see how big of a mistake it is every day. And every day it's getting worse and every day it costs more money and strains relations between pretty much everybody. While Israel's small, it's not like the West Bank is really occupied by Jews (350,000 Jews who are considered by the U.N. as illegal settlers. Most of them are there for ideological reasons alone. There are 3.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank). The fact is that giving up will cause large civilian upheavals, but won't really change anything territorial-wise for a clear majority of Jewish Israelis. Israel's about the size of NJ, and the size of the stretch from the coast to the West Bank, in its narrowest point is about 2/3 the size of Manhattan. It's a tiny speck which is making way too much noise. 

So while releasing the territories will cause one hell of a mess, it's a sacrifice that in my opinion need to be done.

Denise

 

Now I know you're taking the Michael .  First of all its Friday fool.  Those Spice Girls are not by any means as bad as .....PUT THE NAME OF ANY RECENT BOY BAND HERE as you should know.  Lady Gaga is yours.  We are guilty of Simon Cowpie and for that I am SORRY truly.

 

Dear Mr. "who I thought looked like a very scary Bobbie Fripp, but it turned out I was misinformed",

 

I included your entire post here in hopes that others may read it.  I think it is absolutely brilliant and am basically blown away by you after reading it. Can't say much more than that.  I will just reply with a few simple points:

 

1. US Tax dollars to Israel(and other countries) US Politicians give out real $$$ like candy with no accounting and now USA is in so much debt, a "Greece" scenario is very real.  Having a daughter, I am actually terrified.  When USA is bankrupt we will not be a very good ally to Israel or caretaker to our own citizens.  This is a financial fact, not me being a scaredy-cat. (Informal someone who is easily frightened)

 

 

3. Israel giving up part of Gaza.  If it were that easy I would support that in a second.  My long held belief has been, once the Palestinians have that they will want more and will not be sastified with that small section. However, it would not hurt to try and do like you say in the end of your post.  What happens after, if & when that happens, can be addressed after, I suppose.

 

4. You are dead right about US politicians pandering to rich jewish interests here in the USA. When I was young I was taught the Golden Rule.  Years later I was taught the real Golden Rule:  He who has the Gold makes the rules. US Politicians pander to rich people of all creeds and make laws that profit them handsomely, yet they leave the debt of those policies to millions of American taxapyers. That is why the USA is where we are today.  We will have to pay the piper sooner or later.

 

Peace to you my friend,

 

DM

 

 

 

 

And just to get a thumbs down from my mate, Snow Dog, Welsh independence.

I would expect most of the typical PA'ers to be conservatives. Considering musically they consider the age when minorities were marginalised, the media spewed right wing propaganda and the world was generally ignorant to be the golden age of music 

But wait...America is still like that 

dennismoore wrote:  I will just reply with a few simple points:   (Informal someone who is easily frightened)

dennismoore wrote: 1. US Tax dollars to Israel(and other countries) US Politicians give out real $$$ like candy with no accounting and now USA is in so much debt, a "Greece" scenario is very real.  Having a daughter, I am actually terrified.  When USA is bankrupt we will not be a very good ally to Israel or caretaker to our own citizens.  This is a financial fact, not me being a scaredy-cat.

America has never been more close to losing the power it has gained after WWII, in my opinion. The rise of China and India- though both are far from achieving the economic presence, and from establishing a middle class of any kind, they're massively expanding economies is as intimidating as it impressive. The American "empire" (bit of a mean word, and perhaps very unjust) might be on its death bed. But you probably know a lot more about this topic as I do, as I'm as good at economics as an apricot.

 

dennismoore wrote: 2. I do keep up with the middle east, and I used the term Arab, in very general terms, I know there are so many tribes and infinite political histories & situations there (which you put so aptly in the above quote.). No matter how complex, the Arabs still need a solution to their Palestinian brothers.   3. Israel giving up part of Gaza.  If it were that easy I would support that in a second.  My long held belief has been, once the Palestinians have that they will want more and will not be sastified with that small section. However, it would not hurt to try and do like you say in the end of your post.  What happens after, if & when that happens, can be addressed after, I suppose.

I'll address both together. It is without a trace of doubt, that the people of Palestine deserve the human rights such as the ones in the successfully democratic countries, from the fact that they are human beings. I do not know, though, to what extent the term "brother" manages to stay valid when the common denominator- which is the opposition to the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, and at some cases the opposition to a Zionist state altogether- goes away. The problem I find with this that while Israel's Arab neighbours are all very happy happy joy joy to the Palestinians at the moment, when the moment arrives and the Palestinian issue will be on their table, their Arab neighbours will not want to make the effort and come with a proper solution, as it will probably not aid the Arab countries financially or politically in any way.

I forgot to say, that Gaza has been free of military occupation and of any Jewish settlements since 2005. The upheaval of Jewish settlements there was incredibly chaotic, though successful in the end (though the number was if I remember correctly less than 10,000 Jewish settlers). With that, the de-occupying of Gaza has been nothing short of a gigantic failure. Rockets are constantly being fired at the Israeli south (I'm in constant fear. While no rockets have reached Tel Aviv yet, they can, and probably will eventually. Tel Aviv though being a bustling city, and its bombing might be the cause of a war. But it can always happen. I can only imagine what the people of southern Israel need to go through). Also, considering the massive military operations by the Israeli army in Gaza, aimed at taking out terrorists, but also killing thousands of civilians- most of them Palestinians (if you include the mini-war pretty much that went on 2006 in Gaza when the confrontations reached their peak). 

The failure mostly comes from Hamas' success in controlling Gaza. And so, when the Israeli occupation of West Bank comes to an end, it needs be done knowing that Hamas doesn't manage to take power from Abu Mazen and the Palestinian Liberation Front, who at least recognises Israel's right to exist (well at least says so) and supports the 2 state solution. The Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, and its control over the West Bank would prove to be disastrous to both Israel and Palestine. 

Will the Palestinians drive to attain more of Israel after the establishment of Palestine? Definitely possible. There's a definitely a feeling of unjustness within the Palestinians- that their land has been taken from them and they have been driven away (as I said in my previous post, the statement definitely has some truth to it). With that, there's just the fact that the pre-1967 borders just have a fairly clear Jewish majority. So while they might want more of Israel's territory, it will just face large opposition world-wide and from the Israeli people (they still face much opposition by the Israeli people today, though), and this fight will also, hopefully for Israel, lose steam fairly quickly.

 

dennismoore wrote: 4. You are dead right about US politicians pandering to rich jewish interests here in the USA. When I was young I was taught the Golden Rule.  Years later I was taught the real Golden Rule:  He who has the Gold makes the rules. US Politicians pander to rich people of all creeds and make laws that profit them handsomely, yet they leave the debt of those policies to millions of American taxapyers. That is why the USA is where we are today.  We will have to pay the piper sooner or later.

Fight the man! I feel like the situation in Israel economically is way too similar to the situation in the U.S. Capitalism is what makes massive economic growth possible in democratic countries. Over-capitalisation, though, as you  know, will cause the rift between the upper and lower classes. The lower class lose faith in democracy, the upper class gets massive political and economic power, and sh*t gets bleak. There's a time and place for every economic policy- it is time for the U.S., and Israel to obtain a better balance between Capitalism and Socialism.

Happy Passover to all Boobalachs in PA!

 

 

 

 

 

I'm all in favour of it, dear chap. I loathe centralised control in both Whitehall & Europe, and this is just as bad for English regions as it is here in Wales.

 

Hi RoyFairbank,

 

I don't know who tabulated the resultant groups, but I wil take to my grave the belief that:

 

B, D & E are the righteous answers.

 

Very cool quiz.

 

By the way, the explanation of "scaredy cat" was for the "kids" here, not you.  Your writing speaks for itself.  It is my writing, I worry about, I am proudly out of touch with today's younger generation, I don't understand their slang and sometimes I worry that they won't get mine, hence the clarification.  By the way, when the f**k did "bad" become the new good???

 

 

I do hold out hope in the MiddleEast for one other reason:   The imbalance of wealth of the Arab World and their indifference to the Palastinians had been perpetuated by allowing hatred of America & Israel (unchecked terrorism & religious fundamentalism).  The World lent a blind eye while most Arab Nations had oh say 100 Arabs who owned everything and they would rely on Islamic Radicalism - Hatred of the West, to distract their peoples so the average Arab would not question why he is so poor in a land so rich?.  Why of course: It is the Great Satan! Israel & The West!   That game is over since 911.  And The USA won't tolerate that sh*t from Egypt or any other Arab Nation. So..... eventually the Arab Nations will need to address their century old neglected problems.  This is why we have had the Arab Spring in so many Arab lands.  They can't blame the evil USA anymore.  So Arabs will eventually have to stop blaming Jews & Westeners and realize that they must fix their own problems, which a Palestinian State is clearly one of them.

 

The current Syrian slaughter/shame is an Arab problem not a Western one.  The mess in Egypt is not a Zionist plot, but simply an Arab mess.  It is time for the Arab World to get its house in order and stop blaming The West & The Jews.

 

I think it is inevitable as the American government learned a tough lesson on 911 and now knows it can't afford to tolerate the same MiddleEastern hateful anti-American rhetoric that those Arab dictatorships flourished on for decades.

 

They will finally need to consider Peace.  Who would have thought that???