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Topic ClosedIf Prog-Punk was a sub-genre in PA

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akamaisondufromage View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2011 at 12:48
Thanks very much Mr Glibb and Snowy for a very amusing enjoyable series of posts.
 
Mr Lemming I would say out of Mr Glibbs suggested bands Killing Joke contain the requisit quantity of Punk, stacks of it both in terms of noise and attitude.  The question would be if they had enough Prog in any way. 
 
Now then The Skids .......LOL 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2011 at 13:19

More than any other prog artist, VdGG/Hammill bridged the gap between prog and punk and are famous for it (there are tons of articles where VdGG is referred to as prog-punk). While there may be elements of punk hinted at in some of their music (even if it's just down to their approach), albums like Vital and Nadir's Big Chance are blatant and actually sound punk. Check out 'Door' from Vital. That's got the mosh-pit-in-weird-time-signature thing happening in spades. Even 'Arrow' from Godbluff has a real punk vibe to it, although it grooves with clavinet and sax rather than guitars. It's just the raw energy, and bare-bones production (very unique for the mid-70's, when very grand, wet reverb-y production was the norm).

 
Someone mentioned Fripp's Exposure, but moreso than Burn Me Up I'm A Cigarette, check out Disengage. That's way more punk, and it's mainly because of Hammill's insanely out of control vocals.
 
I know firsthand (because I've interviewed them) that members of The Germs and The Dead Kennedys are mega-VdGG fans, while not liking prog in particular. It's also known that Johnny Rotten and Mark E Smith are major Hammill fans.
 
So, for my money, VdGG/Hammill is the one 'classic' prog band that actually sounded like a cross between prog and punk at times.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2011 at 17:48
Originally posted by bucka001 bucka001 wrote:

More than any other prog artist, VdGG/Hammill bridged the gap between prog and punk and are famous for it (there are tons of articles where VdGG is referred to as prog-punk). While there may be elements of punk hinted at in some of their music (even if it's just down to their approach), albums like Vital and Nadir's Big Chance are blatant and actually sound punk. Check out 'Door' from Vital. That's got the mosh-pit-in-weird-time-signature thing happening in spades. Even 'Arrow' from Godbluff has a real punk vibe to it, although it grooves with clavinet and sax rather than guitars. It's just the raw energy, and bare-bones production (very unique for the mid-70's, when very grand, wet reverb-y production was the norm).

 
Someone mentioned Fripp's Exposure, but moreso than Burn Me Up I'm A Cigarette, check out Disengage. That's way more punk, and it's mainly because of Hammill's insanely out of control vocals.
 
I know firsthand (because I've interviewed them) that members of The Germs and The Dead Kennedys are mega-VdGG fans, while not liking prog in particular. It's also known that Johnny Rotten and Mark E Smith are major Hammill fans.
 
So, for my money, VdGG/Hammill is the one 'classic' prog band that actually sounded like a cross between prog and punk at times.


Interesting and insightful post certainly. I don't get the same sense of Punk spirit as I understand it in VDGG that you do but have always maintained that Hammill & Co were NOT a PROG band at all (c/f Yes, Genesis, ELP, early Crimson et al)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2011 at 04:07
^I don't get it myself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2011 at 04:22
Maybe because they are the angriest of the old prog rock bands (the well known ones, that is) and probably  the most rock oriented even though they often called on Fripp for electric guitar duties.  KC could be a lot heavier and more menacing than VDGG but they were also much more demanding musically and quite far out from the typical rock norm.  Hawkwind is much more rock based but just pyschedelic space rock and not much to do with punk.

I do hear similarities between Devoto and Hammill too but I think it's just the voice and there's not much similarity in the singing style. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2011 at 04:24
I also don't get why punkheads or rockheads single out VDGG for praise. I really don't see the big difference. Or maybe, it's the touch of anger and if that's there, it doesn't matter if the music is 'pretentious' or 'pompous' or *insert any of the usual prog cliches*
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2011 at 06:12
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I also don't get why punkheads or rockheads single out VDGG for praise. I really don't see the big difference. Or maybe, it's the touch of anger and if that's there, it doesn't matter if the music is 'pretentious' or 'pompous' or *insert any of the usual prog cliches*
 
It's a good question. There are several punk/post-punk/new wave musicians who claim to not like prog but will go on record as admirers of VdGG. One thing may be the harshness/anger (as you say), and that's what I would have thought, but a lot of these people will reference earlier recordings (Pawn Hearts, etc). I thought the anger and harsh vocals started later with Godbluff through to Vital. A lot of people also like how f*ckd up the albums are. Phil Oakey (singer for the Human League... remember them?) said that they (members of HL) liked Genesis and were influenced by them, but not as much as they liked VdGG because their albums were "massive journeys into your brain." It wasn't about giant hogweeds or starship troopers, it was about mental disintegration and desperation in many forms. Jello Biafra (Dead Kennedys) recently said that he liked VdGG because "they were a darker side of prog. With teeth. It wasn't all a bunch of elves. I couldn't stand bands like that... I've never seen any of the punk pioneers mention Yes as an influence." Also, one of the things that others might appreciate (and I've seen mentioned as a turn-off by some fans of the big 5 [Genesis, Yes, etc] who can't get into VdGG] is that there really is no virtuoso presentation. Personally, I think the musicians in VdGG can stand alongside any of the musical giants in the field, but there wasn't a whole lot of solo-ing so the allegations of "noodling" that some have brought up against the classic prog bands wouldn't really apply to VdGG. I can see punks appreciating that.
 
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I... have always maintained that Hammill & Co were NOT a PROG band at all (c/f Yes, Genesis, ELP, early Crimson et al)
It's a blurry area for me personally (I think some of the earlier stuff, like 'Lost' or 'Man Erg' definitely fit into the classic prog mode while the later stuff seems to be somewhere else). Certainly a lot of historians will write about VdGG as being different than the mainstream proggers and bag VdGG under an umbrella with people like Can or Captain Beefheart. So in that case, it's not about how the music sounds, but rather some sort of approach that VdGG, Can, Beefheart, Hawkwind, etc, would have in common that isn't there in mainstream prog.


Edited by bucka001 - November 19 2011 at 06:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2011 at 07:00
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

^I don't get it myself.
 
This should help not only Snow Dog but any others who aren't quite there with the 'prog-punk' thing. Even if you hate it, stick with it until the end... that's when it really speeds up and sounds like straight-up punk. It's from '78. One of my top 5 fave Van der Graaf tunes.
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2011 at 07:02
^Sounds like a lot of pre punk music to me.

But then again, Punk wasn't original either. Just aggressive and anti establishment.


Edited by Snow Dog - November 19 2011 at 07:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2011 at 07:50
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

^Sounds like a lot of pre punk music to me.
 
But certainly you can see the argument for the 'prog-punk' label with a tune like this...
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

But then again, Punk wasn't original either. Just aggressive and anti establishment.
 
True, but at the time in the mid-late 70's maybe that was what was needed - a return to the excitement that rock originally gave us. Also, it's been beaten to death that punk was a reaction to the bloated pomposity of prog, but I've seen punks mention stuff that was popular on the radio in general. In the aformentioned Jello Biafra interview, he mentions "pompous arena rock, stupid ass disco, and The Eagles" as stuff that the youth (in America at least) were pummeled with on the radio in the early-mid 70's. As a reaction to, and in contrast with, that, at least punk had balls. (In my opinion, worthless as it is, there was good and not-so-good punk... like any genre, and the best of it was pretty 'new' sounding at the time)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2011 at 09:42
Would it be called prunk or pung?  Just realized I left out an o.  so here it is: o


Edited by Slartibartfast - December 06 2011 at 15:27
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2011 at 09:43
Pronk 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 15:09

In the new issue of Classic Rock there is a lenghty Peter Hammill article/interview, and he talks about punk rock and his role. He's very straightforward in his denial of claims made by some that his '75 solo album Nadir's Big Chance was a catalyst and perhaps the first true British punk album. From Classic Rock:

Part of Hammill’s appeal has long been his fervent devotion to exploring new ideas and embracing new technologies. Perhaps this is why he remains one of the few prog alumni to be saluted by the likes of the Sex Pistol's John Lydon and indie guitar hero Graham Coxon, among many other non-prog notables. In truth, albums like 1975’s Nadir's Big Chance — which was a solo album that happened to feature the entire Van der Graaf line-up— were startling in their musical prescience and yet remain curiously ageless and out of time. Often cited as the first album to feature the word “punk” in its liner notes, Nadirs Big Chance was a pre-emptive blowing away of pompous cobwebs before the punk and new wave onslaught began in earnest a brace of wars later.


“The nature of those tunes meant that they had to be addressed with a certain energy.’ Hammill explains. “For us, the connection with that energy came from those beat group singles of the 60s, The Kinks, The Who, The Beatles and so on. Obviously, because punk is mentioned in the credits and because songs like Two Or Three Spectres and Birthday Special did have some sort of linearity with what was about to come, I am often credited with something I didn’t do. It was merely my interpretation of the old three- chord tricks of the 60s and for me it’s a continuation. Effectively, what happened in 77 was a reclamation of the energy that existed in the 60s. Punk re-established a connection. If Nadir had a part to play in that reconnection then I’m happy to take that as a compliment, but I didn’t invent it!”

jc
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2011 at 14:52
Nobody mentioned Ultravox! - considered a "New Wave" band back in '77 before Midge Ure joinedCool


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2011 at 21:34
Originally posted by irrelevant irrelevant wrote:

Pronk 

Pung needs the extra o so Punog?
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2011 at 17:25
Originally posted by 2dogs 2dogs wrote:

Nobody mentioned Ultravox! - considered a "New Wave" band back in '77 before Midge Ure joinedCool


 
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