If Prog-Punk was a sub-genre in PA
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Topic: If Prog-Punk was a sub-genre in PA
Posted By: frippism
Subject: If Prog-Punk was a sub-genre in PA
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 14:42
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So yeah it's a bit far-fetched, but what if Prog-Punk were a sub-genre in PA, which bands would you add? I think there's a healthy amount of bands to actually create a sub-genre. Some that I think are worthy: Cardiacs NoMeansNo (who because they were rejected from PA I even thought of doing this thread) Uz Jsme Doma The Monsoon Bassoon Deep Turtle (best band name ever) Pere Ubu Thinking Fellers Union 282 Scramanga Six The Fall (well marginal but maybe) William D. Drake Spratleys Japs Only A Mother PIL Many experimental post punk bands like This Heat and others and blaaaaa. So yeah. It'd be really awesome if something like this actually happened... ------------- There be dragons |
Replies:
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 14:46
| Skeleton Crew? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 14:47
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Magazine, The Strangers, Wire.....although non of these are Punk in itself ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 14:51
At the Drive In  ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 14:57
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Without meaning to be obstructive, this is a prog site. If I wanted to discuss punk bands, i would go to a punk site. There is, IMHO, no such thing as prog-punk. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 14:59
Have you listened to some/many of the groups listed, then? I think the term describes many of them very well. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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lazland wrote:Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 15:00
That's simply not true, though. There are a plenty of bands that combine elements of prog and punk, hence this thread. Not sure about your nomination of William D. Drake, though, frippism. Not much in the way of punk going on in his solo albums. |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 15:02
Agreed there. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 15:23
The thing is, the term prog punk is so vague it's essentially meaningless. What is one to expect from a prog punk band, a mixture of Minor Threat and Genesis? The original punk movement was partially a reaction against prog (among other luxuries of the upper classes) so the term will come off as contradictory to most people. In other words, Cardiacs and Ruins could be described as prog punk, but they are more accurately described as Avant and Zeuhl, respectively. Genre labels exist merely for convenience, so the less ambiguity the better. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 15:24
Also Refused. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shape_of_Punk_to_Come" rel="nofollow - This album is awesome . Not prog, but quintessential post hardcore. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 15:25
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If the PA/JMA/MMA family ends up spawning Alt-Rock Archives (to cover punk, art punk, post-punk, and child genres like college rock, alternative rock, grunge, goth, indie, Britpop etc. etc.) I'd be there like a shot. But as far as prog-punk goes, I agree with most suggestions except I didn't hear much in NoMeansNo to suggest a prog angle to them.
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 15:39
I'd personally wholeheartedly disagree with those examples. Avant-Prog is actually a pretty awful and misleading description for Cardiacs, IMO, not to mention just as ambiguous (and arguably morseo than) Prog-Punk. As for Ruins, I'd much sooner label them Experimental/Math Rock over Zeuhl. These terms, like the music we attempt to apply them to, are fluid and changeable. I see no sense or benefit in sticking Band X in Genre Y to the exclusion of all other possible terminology. As for Cardiacs, they're a pop band.  |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 15:41
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what if punk-prog was a sub genre in punk archives? ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 16:00
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all the no wave bands : DNA, Lydian Lunch, James White, The Lounge Lizards...
Minutemen
The Stranglers
Black Flag
Bodychoke
Butthole Surfers
Melvins
Chrome
Gang Of Four
The Pop Group
K.U.K.L
Devo
Death (the band of the seventies)
Television
Electrelane
The Jesus Lizards
Magazine
Wire
XTC
Monochrome Set
Le Singe Blanc
Melt Banana
Minor Threat
Savage Republic
Scratch Acid
Soundgarden (early)
The Cravats
The Damned
The Dancing Did
The Ex
The Jesus Lizard
The Mars Volta
The Nightingales
Weasel Walter
Don Caballero
Young Marble Giants
The Feelies
John Zorn
Ruins
Koenjihyakkei
and many more ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 16:26
| So, to what extent can we say Prog-Punk is synonymous with Post-Punk? |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 16:31
Well said!
I recently got a copy of Sing to God (inspired by positive reviews on here) and 1) It's utter crap and 2) it has absolutely nothing to do with prog as I understand it.
If that's prog punk it has no place on here. I've thought for ages this site has gone FAR beyond a prog site. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 16:36
I know I shouldn't, but please do elaborate on how and why you think that album is "utter crap". By which I don't mean, tell me why you didn't personally like the music, because that's not the same as proclaiming an album to be "utter crap". |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 16:37
If you don't like the album, feel free to send your copy to me (free of charge, of course, since you find it utter crap). I'd gladly provide my address, and I'd probably even pay for shipping. 
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 16:51
I'm not that familiar with Cardiacs to be honest. Perhaps you're right.  I'm all in favor of multiple labels. For example, the Wiki entry for Ruins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock" rel="nofollow - Progressive rock , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_rock" rel="nofollow - noise rock , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeuhl" rel="nofollow - zeuhl , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Math_rock" rel="nofollow - math rock Is much more accurate than the PA categorization. I meant that for the purposes of this site we have to pick the most descriptive label. Ruins don't sound much like the traditional French zeuhl, but they're the most prominent/influential band on the Japanese zeuhl scene so that's what most people associate them with. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 16:53
| ..then you would make my brother very happy |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 16:53
Any genre can be progressive, punk isn't an exception. If you wan't to stop being so ignorant i suggest you look up some of the bands. Also just because you dislike the Sing to God album, doesn't mean its "utter crap". ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 17:38
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How can that be prog? MY music is prog! That's not Genesis! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 18:24
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OMG Ansen!
+1
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Posted By: A Smart Kid
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 19:54
| Any genre or band can be "progressive" in the sense of the word; however, this does not mean they belong in the progressive genre. Every band has progressed at least a little through out their career. If every band that has ever "progressed" was put on PA...well you see where I am going. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 19:58
I disagree! Fripp's solo LP "Exposure" and his work with the band League of Gentlemen were clearly crossover prog-punk. Other examples would include Gabriel's first solo LP, works like "801 Live" etc. It was never a very vital subgenre, but for a while in the 1980's, it was unavoidable.
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Posted By: 40footwolf
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 20:12
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I guess that would be stuff like Crass, Glenn Branca, This Heat, Cave In and At The Drive-In. To say that there is no punk with progressive or avant-garde influences is simply ludicrous. ------------- Heaven's made a cesspool of us all. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 20:55
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Check out this clip of Gang of Four.... Bassist Sara Lee went on to join Fripp in the League of Gentlemen. From what I understand, GO4 was a substantial influence on Fripp in that era. They have a sound very reminiscent of Discipline-era KC, including the solid-state processed guitar sound. I quite like this.... |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 21:06
 ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 23:40
I'm the first one to vouch that Cardiacs are a pop band, but RIO/ Avant isn't exactly the right place for them here. Is there a Pop Archives? ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 23:44
Ehh not much I think. There are many Post-Punk bands who were experimental, but there were many who weren't. Like idk the Cure, Joy Division and so on.
You really have to listen to the music to understand. Many of these bands weren't and aren't just experimental punk. Instead they have displayed a very obvious influence from both punk rock and prog rock, many times combining the fast riffs and manic drums with time changes and weird little sounds that go oidshfpoahdapfoh. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 23:48
I don't want to discuss the Ramones, The Clash, and Green Day (and I tried going into plenty of punk forums- usually this would turn up) very much. I'd really rather discuss these bands more, and in a punk forum they really wouldn't be welcome.
It's the greatest albums of all time .Nothing to do with prog? It has more time changes than a freaking... broken clock or something I don't know... And yeah if you do have a physical copy of "Sing To God" and might just try and sell it, do remember who started this thread and is the nicest person in the world!!! ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: October 30 2011 at 23:51
I called dibs already.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 31 2011 at 07:21
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Like many others in this thread I would be like a seal in an aquarium if there was a music site dedicated to the likes of Television, Monochrome Set, Cure, Banshees, Teardrop Explodes, Bunymen, Pere Ubu, Joy Division, Wall of Voodoo, Magazine, Josef K, The Sound, Nick Cave, Cocteau Twins, The Fall, Patti Smith, Stranglers, Wire, Velvet Underground, Divine Comedy, Dylan, the Go Betweens, Stan Ridgway, XTC, Prefab Sprout (the list goes on but there ain't many punk bands in there I grant you and I've no idea what umbrella they would all shelter under) Prog Punk as an appellation seems a bit of a contradiction in terms like: a black skinhead, a skinny Buddha, Christian Black Metal, free-form structuralism, soft hardcore, low fat heroin, people who were conceived while their parents were fully clothed, Acoustic Techno etc Perhaps we are confusing high energy, aggression and confrontation with Punk? (The latter never had any sort of monopoly on those) ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 31 2011 at 08:32
 Yeah, if you don't like it there are plenty of us out there who would give it a good home. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: October 31 2011 at 09:13
It's likely to stay that way for some time to come. Why not bite the bullet and get it from itunes? |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: October 31 2011 at 10:06
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^ Yeah I caved and did that. I love them enough to buy the whole physical discography later. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: October 31 2011 at 11:01
This. There are still a couple I haven't gotten even on iTunes yet, but I'm working on it...too many other groups I have to check out though, so I'm keeping things balanced when possible. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: October 31 2011 at 12:09
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The majority of punk bands that I've heard mentioned here are not terribly progressive to my ears. There are some punk bands that delved into odd time signatures and experimental music.
But the very nature of punk, almost the antithesis of what prog was doing in the seventies, makes it difficult, but not impossible, for it's inclusion here.
I see no reason to change that. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: October 31 2011 at 12:26
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......there would be one hell of a 'discussion'. I think some bands which come closest to my ears are more 'gothic' by nature.
Siouxsie
UK Decay
Bauhaus
Virgin Prunes
plus some Krautrock influenced
The Fall
Gang of Four
The difficult thing is these bands are as diverse as prog so to put them all in some new genre would be rather odd.
My vote would always go to Magazine as the most relevant band but this will not happen and I'm not sure I would want it to? ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: October 31 2011 at 12:38
Well yes but that doesn't mean that people didn't take the punk sound and make it complex. The fact that Punk started as an antithesis to prog somewhat doesn't mean a punk band can't make complex music. Also the fact that Prog is the antithesis of Punk hasn't stopped Prog bands from making complex music. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: October 31 2011 at 13:18
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I know quite a bit about this era, as I was a gigging bassist during this time. During my first jam session with the late, great "Marquis" in Chicago, I started the jam off with the bass line from Lark's Tongues In Aspic, Part 2. The band loved it!! We had a phenomenal guitarist who could play anything. Marquis and other bands hung out in a creepy, huge old meat warehouse in industrial Chicago ("The Space Place") that was the locus for "progressive punk" in the early 1980's. Guys like David Bowie used to drop by all the time when they were in town (I never was there when he visited), it was like an incubator of the movement. Bands like "The Corrosives" featured blazing jazz-rock trained guitarists....it made for an amazing sound!! The punk/prog movement was best exemplified by The Police, Blondie, Talking Heads, Big Country, and several others who went on to fame & glory (not the Marquis, alas!). Fripp's "League of Gentlemen" project morphed into Discipline-era King Crimson, which maintained the very high energy level of the movement. (Bassist Sara Lee nearly joined, but Levin was selected). It was all over in just a few years, late 1980's. My project with Lon Jones (Fripp's student) and his CAVU band had elements of the punk/prog movement, but pop music continued to evolve, with thrash & speed metal, rap, and other forms taking over. There are still a few holdouts like the Police, but by and large, prog-punk is a forgotten art form. Fun while it lasted!! Man, we were LOUD!!! Vital elements of prog punk included heavy use of synth, complex compositions, and fast tempos. This video is an excellent example of how prog artists of the 70's were struggling to adapt to the new musical demands late in the decade. Notice the "punk accoutrements" that Fripp employed....skinny tie, narrow lapels, short hair, straight-leg dress pants, bad-ass expression etc. I knew Bob back in these days, he was quite enthusiastic about playing pogo-dance music!! It was bizarre. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: October 31 2011 at 13:29
pop and extreme metal are also not particularly "prog" in essence, but you will find a lot of their representatives in PA's database. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: October 31 2011 at 13:47
Didn't he also apply the term "dinosaurs" to the monster bands/music labels well before the punks did too?
I do think there would be a lot of upsides to the site migrating to a new architecture based on the one at MMA and JMA - that system applies genre to individual album, so if you had (say) a space rock band which went symphonic in the mid-1970s and then returned in the mid-1980s with a new neo-prog sound the labels could all be applied accordingly. But the migration would be such a massive undertaking I wouldn't count on the powers that be doing it unless and until they had a plentiful amount of time on their hands. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 00:35
Indeed he did! I remember when I first met Bob, he was doing the famous "Drive to 1981" tour of US record stores, playing solo with his Frippertronics rig http://www.elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_Robert_Fripp_in_Melody_Maker_%281979%29" rel="nofollow - http://www.elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_Robert_Fripp_in_Melody_Maker_%281979%29 He held court to about 30 fans in a small audience, and proceeded to exclaim upon his theories that the major record companies were "dinosaurs" pursuing an outmoded business model. It took years longer than he realized, but he was dead on the money, with record companies being hammered by self-publishing, downloads, i-tunes etc.! Bob was funnier than hell, he as an amazingly wry sense of humor! I'd enjoy meeting up with him again, perhaps after he retires. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 00:42
Which is all that the archetypal prog metal bands do anyway. Very few of them show the appreciation of scope and structure that, say, Yes did. Rather, like 2112, they start with one set of riffs and rather than exploring them, ditch them after a while for another and so on. Cut out the odd time sigs and it's about as prog as Stargazer.
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Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:11
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^ That's just really really wrong. A Cardiacs song has about three CTTEs in it in terms of ideas in 4 minutes. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:20
I was talking about prog metal, not Cardiacs.
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:21
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I'll nominate the great obscure Athletico Spizz 80 (they were more known when they were Spizz Energy) Maybe Lemon Kittens? |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:32
Oh yeah! Well... It's a shame to criticize any genre like this honestly... ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:42
This is really really cool! Who are these guys? ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:55
I am not criticizing the genre per se, just calling into question how progressive it is if something like Cardiacs is ostensibly not progressive enough as per the argument of that person above. Just saying that if prog punk can be argued as not progressive and just experimental and dabbling in odd time signatures, then that applies to a lot of prog metal. Again, that is just a discussion of how progressive or not it is...I don't think music becomes better or worse for being more or less progressive, that is still only one aspect of what makes music tick.
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 09:09
Glad you like 'em. Do A Runner from 1980 is probably my favorite post punk (or whatever it is) album. Mostly quite intricate arrangements and several different sections in every track. But still short, sweet with an undeniable punk energy and attitude. They make complex punk sound like the most natural thing in the world. http://www.spizzenergi.com/spizz/thestory.html" rel="nofollow - Read up, and check out their song http://www.ipernity.com/doc/41777/9034052" rel="nofollow - New Species as well. |
Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 11:14
Yeah, I think Fripp overestimated the extent to which "small, independent mobile units" (whether those are independent record labels or musicians/bands) could compete in the market without a system like the Internet to allow them to bypass the traditional distribution systems entirely, but the punk era did at least bring in a DIY creed and prompt a bunch of indie labels to start up. I think the punk/New Wave explosion sowed the seeds of the revolution and got it rolling, and then once the Internet got ubiquitous it became a medium through which the revolution could advance significantly faster. Either way, Fripp's incredible level of foresight has always impressed me.
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 18:04
Indeed! Fripp is generally right on the money on most things, and he envisioned a closer, more wired world long before the Internet became commonplace. The punk/new wave revolution managed to bypass the record companies with the self-issued EP format....for much less than the cost of a full, pressed-vinyl LP, bands could chug out EPs to get the word out. Now, bands do much the same with free downloads from their own websites. However, Fripp had some stinkers in the mix as well....he broke up the LTIA Crimson (over Bruford's strenuous objections) because he had apocalyptic visions of the near future. In fact, some of this came to be, with train bombings in London, anthrax attacks in the USA etc., but we haven't slid into the abyss....yet! I think he was perhaps 100 years ahead of his time. His "new standard tuning" has never quite taken off to the extent he was hoping. I just received this email from his Guitar Craft team: ----------------------------- Dear Team, This appeal is being sent to long term members of the Guitar Circle Community worldwide, if for any reason you do not want to receive this kind of information please let us know. To Those Who Know And Are Known, The Guitar Circle of North America has been collecting contributions in NA and has transfered funds to the GC Office recently, for this we're deeply grateful. The raised amount helped us to keep going but in order to support the continuity of the GC Office, the Courses, the Special Projects and to sponsor participation of committed Crafties currently in financial trouble we do need more help. Clearly not everyone can travel and make contributions, but perhaps we can all make a contribution from where we are and within our possibilities. The economic crisis is global, particularly difficult in Latin America, but still... it's difficult in NA and EU as well, and Crafties from those areas need to be supported too, in fact this is happening already. It won't be possible to fly in a large team from one continent to the other, but one of us (staff) can be flown in and work with a given team, or one of the local ensemble leaders can be flown in to a course and take back part of the experience and information to their teams. Many thanks for the contributions received so far (NA, EU and SA), this makes so much possible! yet it is still far from the target and it might simply be because we are not all really aware of how important this appeal-request actually is, Projects in Latin America are no longer financeable, in Europe we can just about break even sometimes, the AAD courses are generating some funds as there are "no expenses" involved... but all in all we're running on "reserve tank"... Hence this request to trusted members of the GC Community: can we make an effort to make certain things possible that are currently seemingly impossible? The GC Office is committed to support the poor, the unemployed, the students... anyone that has a good heart, takes it seriously and is committed. Contributions can easily be made directlly to GCE via paypal: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=5KUSX4UQXMLPA" rel="nofollow - https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=5KUSX4UQXMLPA Bank transfers are also fine if paypal doesn't work for you, just contact the GCE Office for details. ------------- ....poor Bob, he had so wished for his Guitar Craft to transform the world of guitar! His tuning requires fingers 12 inches long to play (his fingers are about that long), so it hasn't taken off just yet. By all means, donate if you can! Cheers, Chuck (former bassist to Lon Jones, Craftie from Tulsa, Oklahoma USA) |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 20:25
| He predicted a collapse of unprecedented proportions in the 90s. Guess he didn't anticipate dotcom but if the looming crisis starts to take casualties, it will be the biggest since the Great Depression. Right on the money, but too far ahead of his time, like his music,. |
Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: November 01 2011 at 23:11
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Very surprised that Killing Joke has not been mentioned in this thread! ------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 07:19
I love this. Thanks for bringing them to my attention! I might as well mention http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyWgbCOzrT4" rel="nofollow - The Diagram Brothers and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-PmQ3dFQvs" rel="nofollow - Stump , who are my personal favourites from the murky world of obscure, proggy post-punk. |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:16
Of course that being counted as prog or not really has nothing to do with it. But these are people who literally in many occasions took someone like Captain Beefheart or Gentle Giant and meshed it up with the Sex Pistols. Prog-Punk if there ever was such a thing. Well there isn't really such a thing but bolaoifhgjapodhgasd. ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 20:11
I don't think you have got my point at all so nevermind. |
Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 23:40
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Is this prog-punk? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6xrwOfMM_w" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6xrwOfMM_w
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 03:45
 oh it is barly Outside the Gate -------------  
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Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 05:30
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Skids, Big Country, (early) Simple Minds, Echo and The Bunnymen, Killing Joke, Cure, Japan, The Armoury Show and Magazine. Howard Devoto obviously modelled his vocal style on Peter Hammill. Johnny Rotten also liked VdGG. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 05:34
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I like all of the bands you have cited but NONE of them have the requisite PUNK element to qualify.
-------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 05:44
I don't think so. I doubt he could do anything about the way he sang. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 05:49
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Don't agree. Skids were as punk as you could get. All the others were derived from the post-punk scene. In fact Magazine was a off shoot of The Buzzcocks, Big Country from The Skids, The Armoury Show from the Skids AND Magazine. So the punk element was there throughout most of these bands. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 05:50
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^ I agree with thelemming...not punk
Hang on..Skids as punk as you could get....thank you, my laugh of the day! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 05:55
No? Then compare these two......... |
Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:00
Yes very, very funny aren't I? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:01
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^ I know how they both sound. That is why I wrote my post with confidence. Sounding similar to someone is not the same as modelling on someone. You offer no proof. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:04
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I'm a direct descendant of Cro-Magnon man but I don't hunt down and club my dinner to death. Post punk (which I love) is exactly that, it was a more refined and articulate development that emerged from the clumsy agit-prop of punk. Magazine had squat to do with the Buzzcocks apart from both contained Howard Devoto. The Skids best known song 'Into the Valley' was inspired by Jean Paul Sartre and Big Country were for me at best , a thinking man's Run Rig. Punk was an undistilled nihilistic spirit foisted upon youth by economic privation. If you draw a graph based on the UK's prevailing economic well being, you can chart the birth and death of Punk. -------------
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Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:07
I give up. I know why I rarely post to the forum and this is why. I am sure this post will get dissed as well. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:08
Sorry. Ok. You are correct. Howerd Devoto modelled Himslf on Hammill. Wasn't aware I was "dissing" you btw. Do you believe that of everyone you argue with?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:10
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Hey that's a bit negative Barry. Good old fashioned debate is great fun. No-ones attacking you personally here, it's just a bit of cut and thrust banter. Nobody can prove they're right or wrong. Get with the spirit music lover. -------------
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Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:10
Thank you Snow Dog |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:11
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^You're welcome. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:13
No problem. I am just a new age sensitive guy I suppose whio just wants to be friends with all you PA people! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:13
Hey that was easy! That felt good! I should just concede arguments more often. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:14
We can be friends and still have a pretty strong argument. Perhaps my laughing at you Skids comment was too far. If so I apologise.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: BarryGlibb
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:19
That's OK Snow Dog....now as for The Skids...I really really think they were as punk as you could get! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 06:20
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^Now stop it. you're killing me! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 12:48
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Thanks very much Mr Glibb and Snowy for a very amusing enjoyable series of posts.
Mr Lemming I would say out of Mr Glibbs suggested bands Killing Joke contain the requisit quantity of Punk, stacks of it both in terms of noise and attitude. The question would be if they had enough Prog in any way.
Now then The Skids .......  ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 13:19
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More than any other prog artist, VdGG/Hammill bridged the gap between prog and punk and are famous for it (there are tons of articles where VdGG is referred to as prog-punk). While there may be elements of punk hinted at in some of their music (even if it's just down to their approach), albums like Vital and Nadir's Big Chance are blatant and actually sound punk. Check out 'Door' from Vital. That's got the mosh-pit-in-weird-time-signature thing happening in spades. Even 'Arrow' from Godbluff has a real punk vibe to it, although it grooves with clavinet and sax rather than guitars. It's just the raw energy, and bare-bones production (very unique for the mid-70's, when very grand, wet reverb-y production was the norm). Someone mentioned Fripp's Exposure, but moreso than Burn Me Up I'm A Cigarette, check out Disengage. That's way more punk, and it's mainly because of Hammill's insanely out of control vocals.
I know firsthand (because I've interviewed them) that members of The Germs and The Dead Kennedys are mega-VdGG fans, while not liking prog in particular. It's also known that Johnny Rotten and Mark E Smith are major Hammill fans.
So, for my money, VdGG/Hammill is the one 'classic' prog band that actually sounded like a cross between prog and punk at times. ------------- jc |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 18 2011 at 17:48
Interesting and insightful post certainly. I don't get the same sense of Punk spirit as I understand it in VDGG that you do but have always maintained that Hammill & Co were NOT a PROG band at all (c/f Yes, Genesis, ELP, early Crimson et al) -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 19 2011 at 04:07
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^I don't get it myself. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 19 2011 at 04:22
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Maybe because they are the angriest of the old prog rock bands (the well known ones, that is) and probably the most rock oriented even though they often called on Fripp for electric guitar duties. KC could be a lot heavier and more menacing than VDGG but they were also much more demanding musically and quite far out from the typical rock norm. Hawkwind is much more rock based but just pyschedelic space rock and not much to do with punk. I do hear similarities between Devoto and Hammill too but I think it's just the voice and there's not much similarity in the singing style. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 19 2011 at 04:24
| I also don't get why punkheads or rockheads single out VDGG for praise. I really don't see the big difference. Or maybe, it's the touch of anger and if that's there, it doesn't matter if the music is 'pretentious' or 'pompous' or *insert any of the usual prog cliches* |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: November 19 2011 at 06:12
It's a good question. There are several punk/post-punk/new wave musicians who claim to not like prog but will go on record as admirers of VdGG. One thing may be the harshness/anger (as you say), and that's what I would have thought, but a lot of these people will reference earlier recordings (Pawn Hearts, etc). I thought the anger and harsh vocals started later with Godbluff through to Vital. A lot of people also like how f*ckd up the albums are. Phil Oakey (singer for the Human League... remember them?) said that they (members of HL) liked Genesis and were influenced by them, but not as much as they liked VdGG because their albums were "massive journeys into your brain." It wasn't about giant hogweeds or starship troopers, it was about mental disintegration and desperation in many forms. Jello Biafra (Dead Kennedys) recently said that he liked VdGG because "they were a darker side of prog. With teeth. It wasn't all a bunch of elves. I couldn't stand bands like that... I've never seen any of the punk pioneers mention Yes as an influence." Also, one of the things that others might appreciate (and I've seen mentioned as a turn-off by some fans of the big 5 [Genesis, Yes, etc] who can't get into VdGG] is that there really is no virtuoso presentation. Personally, I think the musicians in VdGG can stand alongside any of the musical giants in the field, but there wasn't a whole lot of solo-ing so the allegations of "noodling" that some have brought up against the classic prog bands wouldn't really apply to VdGG. I can see punks appreciating that.
It's a blurry area for me personally (I think some of the earlier stuff, like 'Lost' or 'Man Erg' definitely fit into the classic prog mode while the later stuff seems to be somewhere else). Certainly a lot of historians will write about VdGG as being different than the mainstream proggers and bag VdGG under an umbrella with people like Can or Captain Beefheart. So in that case, it's not about how the music sounds, but rather some sort of approach that VdGG, Can, Beefheart, Hawkwind, etc, would have in common that isn't there in mainstream prog. ------------- jc |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: November 19 2011 at 07:00
This should help not only Snow Dog but any others who aren't quite there with the 'prog-punk' thing. Even if you hate it, stick with it until the end... that's when it really speeds up and sounds like straight-up punk. It's from '78. One of my top 5 fave Van der Graaf tunes. http://youtu.be/5gStsxqaSHc" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/5gStsxqaSHc ------------- jc |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 19 2011 at 07:02
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^Sounds like a lot of pre punk music to me.
But then again, Punk wasn't original either. Just aggressive and anti establishment. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: November 19 2011 at 07:50
But certainly you can see the argument for the 'prog-punk' label with a tune like this...
True, but at the time in the mid-late 70's maybe that was what was needed - a return to the excitement that rock originally gave us. Also, it's been beaten to death that punk was a reaction to the bloated pomposity of prog, but I've seen punks mention stuff that was popular on the radio in general. In the aformentioned Jello Biafra interview, he mentions "pompous arena rock, stupid ass disco, and The Eagles" as stuff that the youth (in America at least) were pummeled with on the radio in the early-mid 70's. As a reaction to, and in contrast with, that, at least punk had balls. (In my opinion, worthless as it is, there was good and not-so-good punk... like any genre, and the best of it was pretty 'new' sounding at the time) ------------- jc |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 19 2011 at 09:42
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Would it be called prunk or pung? Just realized I left out an o. so here it is: o ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: November 19 2011 at 09:43
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Pronk ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: December 06 2011 at 15:09
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In the new issue of Classic Rock there is a lenghty Peter Hammill article/interview, and he talks about punk rock and his role. He's very straightforward in his denial of claims made by some that his '75 solo album Nadir's Big Chance was a catalyst and perhaps the first true British punk album. From Classic Rock:
------------- jc |
Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: December 14 2011 at 14:52
Nobody mentioned Ultravox! - considered a "New Wave" band back in '77 before Midge Ure joined |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 14 2011 at 21:34
Pung needs the extra o so Punog? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: December 15 2011 at 17:25
Ha! Ha! Ha! is the Dog's Bollocks! ------------- Help me I'm falling! |