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Topic ClosedJudas Priest for Prog Related!

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SouthSideoftheSky View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:07
Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:


IMO the whole prog related category was a mistake from the start.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it adds nothing of value to this discussion. The issue here is whether Judas Priest ought to be added to Prog Related, not about the virtues or vices of the category as a whole. Please stick to the topic.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:19
Frankly, it's not going to happen
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:23
Sorry I didn't mean to get off topic.
I just don't think we need any more popular heavy metal bands on here. There's plenty of space to discuss and review them elsewhere. Because with this logic, Megadeth and Cannibal Corpse qualify as prog related as well. Also, King Diamond and Merciful Fate should surely be here before the Priest. Etc.............  But I'd rather have the obscure prog reviews hang on the front page a little longer.


Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Frankly, it's not going to happen

This is exactly what we were saying about Iron Maiden, Metallica, Sabbath and Led Zeppelin three years ago. Look at us nowWink


Edited by The Miracle - November 03 2011 at 16:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:25
If they get in, I'm reviving the Testament thread :P
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:38
I definitely support the idea, if only for the fact that JP inspired Iron Maiden, which later inspired the early Progressive Metal scene. Thumbs Up

I've heard some discussion regarding Nostradamus, but no one has yet pointed out the excellent final track off Angel Of Retribution. I'm talking about the 13+ minute epic called Lochness. That track alone is easily more progressive than anything that Iron Maiden has released since Seventh Son of a Seventh Son (even though I know that the whole A thus B argument is pointless, but still)!

Plus, let's not forget that Painkiller is a concept album and an excellent one at that! Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:44
Originally posted by Rune2000 Rune2000 wrote:



Plus, let's not forget that Painkiller is a concept album and an excellent one at that! Wink

How so? News to me and thousands of Priest fans i suspect.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:58
Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

 I just don't think we need any more popular heavy metal bands on here. There's plenty of space to discuss and review them elsewhere.
 

Frankly, I don't understand this attitude; "we don't need...". Well, maybe you don't need, but personally I would very much like to review the albums of Judas Priest from a Prog-perspective, for a Prog-audience, just as I have done with the albums of Queen, Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Deep Purple, Iron Maiden and many other Prog-related bands. Some of which are among my favorite bands of all time. If you don't want to listen to this band, or read any reviews of their music, no one would force you to do so. Why deny those who enjoy music on the outskirts of Prog the pleasure? The only harm it could possibly do is to some rather esoteric sense "exclusiveness" that has little to do with helping other people to find new music.

Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

 But I'd rather have the obscure prog reviews hang on the front page a little longer.
 

For all I care, Prog Related reviews need not show up on the front page (just as they don't show up on the Top 100).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2011 at 17:10
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Rune2000 Rune2000 wrote:



Plus, let's not forget that Painkiller is a concept album and an excellent one at that! Wink

How so? News to me and thousands of Priest fans i suspect.
Perhaps you (and your thousand Priest fans) weren't paying enough attention to the album cover, the track names and the so called The Painkiller legacy. Shocked

The Painkiller is a metal messiah sent to the world to destroy evil and rescue mankind from destruction. The album depicts the story of the Painkiller, his origin and struggles. I'm not going to go into the details regarding the storyline since most of the lyrical content is left to the listeners own interpretation. Let's just say that it ends with an epic battle where the Painkiller gets the one shot at glory and saves mankind but loses oneself by doing so. Truly epic storytelling.Tongue

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2011 at 17:16

^ LOL

You actually checked the lyrics of that stuff. That's what I call dedication ClapLOL

Great album but a typical one of that time with great sophisticated thrash metal, no prog for me.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2011 at 19:40
AGREED!!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2011 at 03:04
Originally posted by Rune2000 Rune2000 wrote:

I definitely support the idea


So, would you like to champion the band before the Admin team? Or should we first make some kind of petition among special collaborators and reviewers?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2011 at 03:54

I sure won't champion them, though I could conceive saying yes based on their early material and their indirect influence (via Maiden) on Prog Metal.

But they were evaluated and rejected on that basis already so I don't see the reason to suggest them again.
And certainly not for Nostradamus, even in my most nasty moods I wouldn't ask someone to listen to that.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2011 at 04:20
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

they were evaluated and rejected on that basis already so I don't see the reason to suggest them again.


Well, why not? It was more than three years ago now and Internet communities are very dynamic things. It is not like a rejection is carved in stone for all generations to come. Things change: other bands have been added to Prog Related and we have many new members. Those of us who support the inclusion of Judas Priest should therefore let the Admins know that there still is a demand for this band's presence in our beloved Archives.

I can definitely see that suggesting the same bands for evaluation over and over can be annoying, but three years is a reasonable interval isn't it?

Nostradamus may not be to everyone's taste, but it surely does have progressive leanings. As I pointed out earlier, the formal rejection of Judas Priest was announced before the release of this album and even though (as was also pointed out above) the Admins considered this album afterwards, it would not have looked to good for them to change their evaluation so shortly afterwards. They don't want to appear whimsical.    

Now, after some years have passed, we can consider the band anew with a fresh perspective and an open mind. It's only fair.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2011 at 04:48

Judas Priest is one of the most influential metal bands and a very important stepping stone to the approach of exploring riffs inside out that Metallica popularized. It's not a question of any old band from the 70s having some tenuous connections to prog; this is THE Judas Priest and they were second only to Sabbath and DP in terms of influence on metal.  Iron Maiden is the more media made and overhyped heavy metal band of this pack; there was precious little they did that Rainbow and JP didn't already do. Speaking of which, I really don't see how Rainbow is more prog related than JP and they are already on PA.  They have what one song, Stargazer, with about as much affinity to prog as Stairway, as against which Victim of changes clearly evidences a multi-part suite within a song structure.  In terms of vocal techniques used in prog metal, Rob Halford is as much, if not more, influential than Dio and as much as the classic rock crowd may love Blackmore, Tipton-Downing were among the biggest influences on NWOBHM and 80s metal guitarwork, as such.

However, Southsideofsky, there are some bands against whom this website has some inexplicable preconceived notions and I have a feeling JP is one of them. I am afraid you are not going to make much headway with this suggestion because people will continue to associate JP with You've Got Another Coming just the same way the rest of the world thinks of Genesis as Phil's band. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2011 at 09:28

^^ I don't think that's how things work, once a decision is made we live by it, a change of people involved is no reason for a re-vote. A change of the prog-related definition might be a reason though, but that's not for me to decide.

^  Fully agree with paragraph 1, not al all with paragraph 2. I'm sure everyone that voted for Judas Priest knows them (and likes them) very well.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2011 at 09:52
If you fully agree with para1, you agree that there is a solid case for JP.  I know that once a band is rejected, and especially a popular band, it is very difficult to push it again for acceptance but FWIW, I am trying to put JP's influence on metal as such in perspective because I think mentioning points like concept albums are not made only by prog rock bands misses the point. Nobody said JP ARE full blown prog and they are not prog ROCK related, they are prog METAL related. A prog METAL RELATED band is going to be metal and no more, at the end of the day. 

I stand by para2. I think popular bands do get judged harshly in such discussions. But the point that for prog related, a popular band with significant influence on prog actually has a stronger case is lost somewhere. I agree with The Miracle in a roundabout way that if the point of a category like prog related is not well understood, it's better not to have it at all because not having JP if you have Rainbow is just inconsistent. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2011 at 09:54
Especially since Rainbow sucks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2011 at 17:35
Originally posted by SouthSideoftheSky SouthSideoftheSky wrote:



Frankly, I don't understand this attitude; "we don't need...". Well, maybe you don't need, but personally I would very much like to review the albums of Judas Priest from a Prog-perspective, for a Prog-audience, just as I have done with the albums of Queen, Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Deep Purple, Iron Maiden and many other Prog-related bands. Some of which are among my favorite bands of all time. If you don't want to listen to this band, or read any reviews of their music, no one would force you to do so. Why deny those who enjoy music on the outskirts of Prog the pleasure? The only harm it could possibly do is to some rather esoteric sense "exclusiveness" that has little to do with helping other people to find new music.


Sorry if I'm being too cynical - it's nothing personalEmbarrassed. I really enjoy your reviews, by the way. But I think you misunderstood. I listen to and love those bands as well. I like a lot of other genres too. I don't want to deny anyone any pleasures. That's why I think we shouldn't deny prog fans the pleasure of having a site devoted "exclusively" to what is traditionally known as prog rock, as its title implies. Because no one will come to Prog Archives to research information on Judas Priest or to discover some classic heavy metal. I have no objection to reviewing them from a Prog-perspective. But that would be the only real reason to add them. Is it really worth it? You can discuss their relationship to prog on MMA or another metal site. People interested in them would probably check there first. Since can discuss connections to other genres in your PA reviews, you can do the same elsewhere. I think PA should be about finding new prog music and giving artists who need it a chance to be found. These super-popular prog-related bands are definitely in no need of promotion to any audience, so that argument has little merit.


Originally posted by SouthSideoftheSky SouthSideoftheSky wrote:

For all I care, Prog Related reviews need not show up on the front page (just as they don't show up on the Top 100).


That's a great idea.Thumbs Up


Edited by The Miracle - November 04 2011 at 20:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2011 at 18:10

^ That's a certainly bad idea, as is the one that doesn't show them in Top 100. I will comply to most of rules here on PA, but this is complete unfairness. 

I know there is more collabs that approve how is this now, but it simply doesn't feel right. After all the problems that band had to get through to even be in Prog-related, they aren't even shown in charts.

My solution would be to include them in Top 100 and let the masses (us and members) speak who deserves to be in Top 100, not to act like Prog Related and Proto-Prog doesn't exist.

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2011 at 18:41
Originally posted by Marty McFly Marty McFly wrote:

^ That's a certainly bad idea, as is the one that doesn't show them in Top 100. I will comply to most of rules here on PA, but this is complete unfairness. 

I know there is more collabs that approve how is this now, but it simply doesn't feel right. After all the problems that band had to get through to even be in Prog-related, they aren't even shown in charts.

My solution would be to include them in Top 100 and let the masses (us and members) speak who deserves to be in Top 100, not to act like Prog Related and Proto-Prog doesn't exist.



Sorry Marty, can't agree there.

The band didn't have any problems getting into Prog-related. Some collabs did.

This is Prog Archives so Prog Related and Proto-Prog are supplemental material here to provide the "full picture", but they're not the main focus of the site. And that's how I'd like to keep it.


Edited by The Miracle - November 04 2011 at 20:35
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