Judas Priest for Prog Related!
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82433
Printed Date: December 02 2024 at 00:54
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Judas Priest for Prog Related!
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Subject: Judas Priest for Prog Related!
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 12:34
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I hereby suggest Judas Priest for inclusion
into Prog Related! I know that this artist has been suggested before and they were evaluated and rejected by the Admin team in April 2008 (see http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48068&KW=judas+priest" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48068&KW=judas+priest ), but I think that it is now time to raise the issue again. - One reason to take it up for discussion
again is the release of the band's double concept album Nostradamus that might
be the most progressive album Judas Priest ever did (though far from the
best!). - Also, in the meantime, other bands have been added to Prog Related that might have changed our perception of the nature of the category(?) Please note that my suggestion is for inclusion into Prog Related and not for a genuine Prog sub-genre. My suggestion can therefore not be dismissed by simply pointing out that the artist in question is not Prog. I agree on that. But I would certainly say that Judas Priest belongs to the family of distinguished Prog Related bands that include Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Queen, Iron Maiden and Metallica (all of which are now in Prog Related). Surely, Judas Priest was influenced by and/or influenced some of these bands as well as having a strong influence on early Prog Metal bands like Fates Warning, Savatage and Queensryche. The most relevant albums by Judas Priest for consideration are in my opinion their first four studio albums (Rocka Rolla, Sad Wings Of Destiny, Sin After Sin and Stained Class) plus their first live album (Unleashed In the East) plus their most recent studio album (the conceptual Nostradamus). But some individual tracks from the 80’s, 90’s and 00’s also have some progressive tendencies (one of several examples is the excellent nine minute plus Cathedral Spires from 1997's otherwise weak Jugulator album). Unfortunately, Judas Priest are best known
for their simplistic 80’s hits like Breakin’ The Law. But remember that something
similar is true of many genuine Prog bands (Genesis’ invisible Touch or Yes’
Owner Of A Lonely Heart are but two familiar examples). I’m certain that had
Judas Priest disbanded after their first four albums – just before they adopted
their leather and chains image - they would have been on Prog Archives long
ago! Personally, I think that the classic Sad
Wings Of Destiny album from 1976 is a masterpiece that would sit very well
alongside other classics on the Prog Related top 100. Feel free to add considerations speaking
for or against this suggestion but please spare us comments like “they suck!”
or “they are amazing!” – it is the Prog relatedness that is under evaluation,
not the quality of the music (judgments on the latter belongs in reviews once
the addition has gone through). |
Replies:
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 12:36
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Pssh, why not. Apparently anything is prog, lol.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 12:37
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The Admins rejected them for prog-related after the release of Nostradamus. Unfortunately, this is a dead horse that is just being beaten again. ------------- 
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:03
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Rocka Rolla had some attempts at heavy prog, Sad Wings Of Destiny and to a lesser extent Sin After Sin also continued some of that proggy metal approach in some of the tracks. However, as to their influence on Prog Metal, I think it's minor. Iron Maiden took Priest's early ideas a step further and had a more direct influence on the early prog metal scene. And let's not forget they are mainly known (and influential) from their 80s albums, where their sound was stripped from anything resembling prog. I regret it but I can see some of the reasons why they were rejected for prog related. |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:36
No, as I said in the original post: Judas Priest is not Prog, but neither need they be to be included in the Prog Related category. The whole point of the Prog Related category is to include bands that are not Prog, but are nonetheless related to Prog in some relevant way(s). And Judas Priest qualifies as related to Prog in my opinion, just like the other bands I mentioned.
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Deathrabbit wrote:Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:42
I certainly agree that Judas Priest are more widely known for their 80's albums and that (at least some of) these albums are "stripped from anything resembling prog" as you say, but why should a band be disqualified on that ground? As I said in the original post, Genesis is more widely known for their non-Prog 80's albums, Yes' most well-known song is Owner Of A Lonely Heart and there are other examples like that of bands that became more popular when they abandoned Prog. I don't think it is fair to judge a band's Prog (related) credentials on the basis of what they are most known for or their most popular songs and albums. What should be relevant is only their most Prog (related) songs and albums. |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:49
Hmm, are you sure? After a quick search I found this: Bob (Easy Livin') announced the rejection (in the thread linked to in my original post) on April 24th 2008. Am I missing something? |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:54
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Yes, there was a further discussion in the collaborator section. In addition, I was the collab who brought Judas Priest to the admins for inclusion in prog related and therefore had further discussions with them regarding their rejection. These discussions did take place after Nostradamus' release because I definitely made a point to them that this album needed to be considered in their decision. -------------
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 14:07
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Lest it be forgot, a concept album does not prog maketh, nor even prog related. Priest are a metal band, simple as. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 14:31
Ok, that cleared up that issue. Thank you! Still, it was three whole years ago now, (right?) and other similar bands have been added to Prog Related and new members have joined the site (perhaps some younger members that do not associate Judas Priest with their early 80's MTV videos?). I thought the time was ripe for a new discussion of this (in Prog circles) underrated band. Let me be clear on that, for me, the 70's albums are alone sufficient to make Judas Priest a Prog Related band. Bringing up Nostradamus was just something that I thought might tip the scale in favour of inclusion. But apparently not - back then. |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 14:38
Of course, I agree that a concept album is not Prog or even Prog related simply in virtue of being a concept album. There are many non-Prog concept albums. As I said above, for me Judas Priest's 70's albums are more than enough to make them Prog related and the only reason to mention Nostradamus is to try to strengthen an already strong case. It at least proves that they had ambitions that go far beyond simplistic ditties like Breakin' The Law and Living After Midnight. |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 14:42
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Black Sabbath are here. Let's debate more. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 15:13
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I don't see it myself. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: November 02 2011 at 18:53
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Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 05:36
Indeed, let's! When viewing them from the perspective of full-blown Prog categories, I can understand that people are sceptical. But viewing them from the perspective of Prog Related and the bands that are already in that category, the appropriateness of their inclusion becomes clear. Judas Priest have been very influential and Metal music (including Prog Metal) would not be the same without them. It is probably true that their direct influence on a band like Dream Theater is minor, but they had a more direct influence on early Prog Metal bands like Fates Warning, Queensryche and Savatage. I have been listening to Fates Warning recently and the influence of Judas Priest is very obvious to me. Please consider the suggestion with an open mind and hold up their best and most proggy albums and song to the better and more proggy albums by other similar bands that are already in the Prog Related category. |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 06:12
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Priest has released a concept album as many metal bands do (heck even Kiss released The Elder, but they will never be classed as prog), nor should Priest. However its a fair proposal as the album has proggish moments from what I heard, as do most concept albums. I have a friend who is a Priest fanatic and he refuses to believe they are prog, but mentions that WASP have a concept album too Babylon - its just the thing to do these days. I would put Helloween in moreover as they have heaps of concept albums - but I doubt anyone will see them as prog. i dont think it matters anyway as I believe most of us more interested in the full prog catalogues these days rather then PR.
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Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 07:26
Just to remind you all of what we are debating:Prog Related definitionNo musical genre exists in a vacuum. Not all of the bands that have been a part of the history and development of progressive rock are necessarily progressive rock bands themselves. This is why progarchives has included a genre called prog-related, so we could include all the bands that complete the history of progressive rock, whether or not they were considered full-fledged progressive rock bands themselves.There are many criteria that the prog-related evaluation team considers when deciding which bands are considered prog-related. Very few bands will meet all of this criteria, but this list will give an idea as to some of the things that help evaluate whether an artists is prog-related or not. 1) Influence on progressive rock - The groundbreaking work of artists like Led Zepplin and David Bowie affected many genres of rock, including at times progressive rock [and Judas Priest affected Metal music, including at times progressive Metal music]. Although both of these artists created rock music in a dizzying array of genres, both contributed to the ongoing history of progressive rock several times within the span of their careers. 2) Location - Progressive rock did not develop at the same time all over the world. It may surprise some people that as late as the mid-70s the US had very few original progressive rock bands that did not sound like exact copies of British bands. Journey was one of the first US bands to present a uniquely American brand of prog-rock before they eventually became a mainstream rock band. We have collaborators from all over the world who tell us which bands helped the progressive rock scene develop in their corner of the globe, even if those bands were like Journey and were known more for being mainstream rock bands [and Judas Priest is most well-known for their much less proggy 80's albums, which should not disqualify them]. 3) Members of important progressive rock bands - Although most of the recorded solo output of artists like Greg Lake and David Gilmour falls more in a mainstream rock style, their contributions to progressive rock in their respective bands insures them a place in our prog-related genre. 4) Timeliness - Like many genres, prog-rock has had its ups and downs. In the late 70s and early 80s prog-rock was barely a blip on the radar. During this time artists such as David Bowie and Metallica released albums that captured key elements of the spirit of prog rock and did so while contributing their own original modern elements to the mix. 5) Integral part of the prog-rock scene - Sometimes you just had to be a part of the scene during a certain time period to understand how some bands fit with the prog rock scene of their time. Although Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Wishbone Ash may seem like mere hard rock bands, in their time they stood apart from other hard rockers with their more serious lyrical content and more developed compositions [this too applies to Judas Priest in their early days]. Put simply, in the early 70s every prog-rock record collector usually had full collections of all three of these artists. These three bands were very much part of the prog-rock scene without being total prog-rock bands them selves. 6) Influenced by progressive rock - From the late 60s till about 1976 the progressive tendency was in full effect in almost all genres of music. Once again, as we enter the second decade of the 21st century a melting pot of prog-metal, math-rock, progressive electronics and post-rock influences have once again made a progressive tendency in rock music almost more a norm than a difference. Yet in other periods of musical history receiving influence from progressive rock could really set a band apart and make them worthy of our prog-related category. Being influenced by progressive rock is hardly the only factor we look at, and in some periods of musical history it is almost meaningless, but still, it is almost a given that most of the artists listed in prog-related were influenced by the development of progressive rock [which I think applies also to Judas Priest in their early days, before they adopted the leather and chains image]. 7) Common sense - Nitpicking over the above listed criteria is not necessarily the correct way to evaluate a band for prog-related. Sometimes you just have to use some common sense and look at the big picture. A very good way to describe prog-related would be to imagine an exhaustive book that covered the history of progressive rock. Would such a book include references to led Zeppelin's 'Stairway to Heaven', David Bowie's 'The Man Who Sold the World' or Queen's 'Bohemian Rhapsody'? Probably so. - Easy Money |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 14:23
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For what it's worth, here are a few quotes from Allmusic.com's review of Sad Wings Of Destiny: The year 1976 was crucial for the evolution of heavy metal, as landmark albums like http://www.allmusic.com/artist/rainbow-p5219" rel="nofollow - Rainbow 's http://www.allmusic.com/album/rising-r1813154" rel="nofollow - Rising and http://www.allmusic.com/artist/scorpions-p5370" rel="nofollow - Scorpions ' http://www.allmusic.com/album/virgin-killer-r17519" rel="nofollow - Virgin Killer began to reshape the genre. Perhaps none was quite as important as http://www.allmusic.com/artist/judas-priest-p4646" rel="nofollow - Judas Priest 's sophomore effort, http://www.allmusic.com/album/sad-wings-of-destiny-r10659" rel="nofollow - Sad Wings of Destiny , which simultaneously took heavy metal to new depths of darkness and new heights of technical precision. Building on the hard prog of bands like http://www.allmusic.com/artist/queen-p5205" rel="nofollow - Queen and http://www.allmusic.com/artist/wishbone-ash-p52689" rel="nofollow - Wishbone Ash , plus the twin-guitar innovations of the latter and http://www.allmusic.com/artist/thin-lizzy-p5633" rel="nofollow - Thin Lizzy , http://www.allmusic.com/album/sad-wings-r10659" rel="nofollow - Sad Wings fused these new influences with the gothic doom of http://www.allmusic.com/artist/black-sabbath-p3693" rel="nofollow - Black Sabbath , the classical precision of http://www.allmusic.com/artist/deep-purple-p4061" rel="nofollow - Deep Purple , and the tight riffery of the more compact http://www.allmusic.com/artist/led-zeppelin-p4739" rel="nofollow - Led Zeppelin tunes. http://www.allmusic.com/artist/priest-p4646" rel="nofollow - Priest 's prog roots are still readily apparent here, particularly on the spacy ballad "Dreamer Deceiver," the multi-sectioned "Victim of Changes," and the softer sonic textures that appear from time to time. The whole review can be found here: http://www.allmusic.com/album/sad-wings-of-destiny-r10659/review" rel="nofollow - http://www.allmusic.com/album/sad-wings-of-destiny-r10659/review
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Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 14:30
And here are a few quotes from Allmusic.com's review of Sin After Sin:
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 14:36
 I thought after the creation of MMA this crap would end. You can scrape up some prog bits from nearly any band like that. IMO the whole prog related category was a mistake from the start. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:07
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it adds nothing of value to this discussion. The issue here is whether Judas Priest ought to be added to Prog Related, not about the virtues or vices of the category as a whole. Please stick to the topic. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:19
| Frankly, it's not going to happen |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:23
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Sorry I didn't mean to get off topic. I just don't think we need any more popular heavy metal bands on here. There's plenty of space to discuss and review them elsewhere. Because with this logic, Megadeth and Cannibal Corpse qualify as prog related as well. Also, King Diamond and Merciful Fate should surely be here before the Priest. Etc............. But I'd rather have the obscure prog reviews hang on the front page a little longer.
This is exactly what we were saying about Iron Maiden, Metallica, Sabbath and Led Zeppelin three years ago. Look at us now  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:25
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If they get in, I'm reviving the Testament thread :P
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Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:38
I definitely support the idea, if only for the fact that JP inspired Iron Maiden, which later inspired the early Progressive Metal scene.  I've heard some discussion regarding Nostradamus, but no one has yet pointed out the excellent final track off Angel Of Retribution. I'm talking about the 13+ minute epic called Lochness. That track alone is easily more progressive than anything that Iron Maiden has released since Seventh Son of a Seventh Son (even though I know that the whole A thus B argument is pointless, but still)! Plus, let's not forget that Painkiller is a concept album and an excellent one at that! ------------- 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:44
How so? News to me and thousands of Priest fans i suspect. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 16:58
Frankly, I don't understand this attitude; "we don't need...". Well, maybe you don't need, but personally I would very much like to review the albums of Judas Priest from a Prog-perspective, for a Prog-audience, just as I have done with the albums of Queen, Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Deep Purple, Iron Maiden and many other Prog-related bands. Some of which are among my favorite bands of all time. If you don't want to listen to this band, or read any reviews of their music, no one would force you to do so. Why deny those who enjoy music on the outskirts of Prog the pleasure? The only harm it could possibly do is to some rather esoteric sense "exclusiveness" that has little to do with helping other people to find new music.
For all I care, Prog Related reviews need not show up on the front page (just as they don't show up on the Top 100). |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 17:10
 The Painkiller is a metal messiah sent to the world to destroy evil and rescue mankind from destruction. The album depicts the story of the Painkiller, his origin and struggles. I'm not going to go into the details regarding the storyline since most of the lyrical content is left to the listeners own interpretation. Let's just say that it ends with an epic battle where the Painkiller gets the one shot at glory and saves mankind but loses oneself by doing so. Truly epic storytelling.  -------------
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 17:16
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^  You actually checked the lyrics of that stuff. That's what I call dedication  Great album but a typical one of that time with great sophisticated thrash metal, no prog for me. |
Posted By: MattGuitat
Date Posted: November 03 2011 at 19:40
| AGREED!!!! |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 03:04
So, would you like to champion the band before the Admin team? Or should we first make some kind of petition among special collaborators and reviewers? |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 03:54
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I sure won't champion them, though I could conceive saying yes based on their early material and their indirect influence (via Maiden) on Prog Metal. But they were evaluated and rejected on that basis already so I don't see the reason to suggest them again. And certainly not for Nostradamus, even in my most nasty moods I wouldn't ask someone to listen to that. |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 04:20
Well, why not? It was more than three years ago now and Internet communities are very dynamic things. It is not like a rejection is carved in stone for all generations to come. Things change: other bands have been added to Prog Related and we have many new members. Those of us who support the inclusion of Judas Priest should therefore let the Admins know that there still is a demand for this band's presence in our beloved Archives. I can definitely see that suggesting the same bands for evaluation over and over can be annoying, but three years is a reasonable interval isn't it? Nostradamus may not be to everyone's taste, but it surely does have progressive leanings. As I pointed out earlier, the formal rejection of Judas Priest was announced before the release of this album and even though (as was also pointed out above) the Admins considered this album afterwards, it would not have looked to good for them to change their evaluation so shortly afterwards. They don't want to appear whimsical. Now, after some years have passed, we can consider the band anew with a fresh perspective and an open mind. It's only fair. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 04:48
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Judas Priest is one of the most influential metal bands and a very important stepping stone to the approach of exploring riffs inside out that Metallica popularized. It's not a question of any old band from the 70s having some tenuous connections to prog; this is THE Judas Priest and they were second only to Sabbath and DP in terms of influence on metal. Iron Maiden is the more media made and overhyped heavy metal band of this pack; there was precious little they did that Rainbow and JP didn't already do. Speaking of which, I really don't see how Rainbow is more prog related than JP and they are already on PA. They have what one song, Stargazer, with about as much affinity to prog as Stairway, as against which Victim of changes clearly evidences a multi-part suite within a song structure. In terms of vocal techniques used in prog metal, Rob Halford is as much, if not more, influential than Dio and as much as the classic rock crowd may love Blackmore, Tipton-Downing were among the biggest influences on NWOBHM and 80s metal guitarwork, as such. However, Southsideofsky, there are some bands against whom this website has some inexplicable preconceived notions and I have a feeling JP is one of them. I am afraid you are not going to make much headway with this suggestion because people will continue to associate JP with You've Got Another Coming just the same way the rest of the world thinks of Genesis as Phil's band.
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 09:28
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^^ I don't think that's how things work, once a decision is made we live by it, a change of people involved is no reason for a re-vote. A change of the prog-related definition might be a reason though, but that's not for me to decide. ^ Fully agree with paragraph 1, not al all with paragraph 2. I'm sure everyone that voted for Judas Priest knows them (and likes them) very well. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 09:52
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If you fully agree with para1, you agree that there is a solid case for JP. I know that once a band is rejected, and especially a popular band, it is very difficult to push it again for acceptance but FWIW, I am trying to put JP's influence on metal as such in perspective because I think mentioning points like concept albums are not made only by prog rock bands misses the point. Nobody said JP ARE full blown prog and they are not prog ROCK related, they are prog METAL related. A prog METAL RELATED band is going to be metal and no more, at the end of the day. I stand by para2. I think popular bands do get judged harshly in such discussions. But the point that for prog related, a popular band with significant influence on prog actually has a stronger case is lost somewhere. I agree with The Miracle in a roundabout way that if the point of a category like prog related is not well understood, it's better not to have it at all because not having JP if you have Rainbow is just inconsistent. |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 09:54
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Especially since Rainbow sucks.
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 17:35
Sorry if I'm being too cynical - it's nothing personal  . I really enjoy your reviews, by the way. But I think you misunderstood. I listen to and love those bands as well. I like a lot of other genres too. I don't want to deny anyone any pleasures. That's why I think we shouldn't deny prog fans the pleasure of having a site devoted "exclusively" to what is traditionally known as prog rock, as its title implies. Because no one
will come to Prog Archives to research information on Judas Priest or to
discover some classic heavy metal. I have no objection to reviewing
them from a Prog-perspective. But that would be the only real reason to add them. Is it really worth it? You can discuss their relationship to prog on MMA or another metal site. People interested in them would probably check there first. Since can discuss connections to other genres in your PA reviews, you can do the same elsewhere. I think PA should be about finding new prog music and giving artists who need it a chance to be found. These super-popular prog-related bands are definitely in no need of promotion to any audience, so that argument has little merit.
That's a great idea. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 18:10
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^ That's a certainly bad idea, as is the one that doesn't show them in Top 100. I will comply to most of rules here on PA, but this is complete unfairness. I know there is more collabs that approve how is this now, but it simply doesn't feel right. After all the problems that band had to get through to even be in Prog-related, they aren't even shown in charts. My solution would be to include them in Top 100 and let the masses (us and members) speak who deserves to be in Top 100, not to act like Prog Related and Proto-Prog doesn't exist. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 18:41
Sorry Marty, can't agree there. The band didn't have any problems getting into Prog-related. Some collabs did. This is Prog Archives so Prog Related and Proto-Prog are supplemental material here to provide the "full picture", but they're not the main focus of the site. And that's how I'd like to keep it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 21:04
Yes, and let's start by removing prog metal then from the database and alienating a huge section of users. Prog has changed and it's inherent in its very nature that it would.
And nobody would also come to prog archives to research info on LZ or Queen. Or Nightwish for that matter. I completely agree that prog related is not a good idea but if it's going to be part of the database, let's have some consistency.
Same thing that can be done for Sabbath, Rainbow, Purple as well. My point is JP belongs in that circle, so it's not a question of just suggesting any old heavy metal band. JP are one of its pillars and certainly reflected its more 'sophisticated' side in the 70s. |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 05:40
Thank you! I did not mean to be rude.
Hmm, that is of course correct, but you're getting it entirely backwards. These band constitute an important gateway to "genuine" Prog. That's how it all started for me, and many other Prog fans. If it wasn't for bands like Queen, Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Deep Purple, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, I would most probably never have found my way to bands like Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc., and I would probably never have found my way to Prog Archives. Many people don't know what Prog is and the music of Prog related bands like those above is a great way to introduce people to "real" Prog music and to the site.
I agree that PA should be (primarily) about finding new Prog music and not about promoting "super-popular" Prog-related bands. But one way of doing the former is exactly by associating it with something that the uninitiated already knows and likes. |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 07:36
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A debate that concerns what people think should be the primary direction of this site. Where one part prefers this site to be a source for those already intimately familiar with prog, a closed community to cater for the chosen few. The other point of view is that the site should be more liberal and open, a source for curious music fans to get the chance to discover what this is all about. Where the inclusion of proggy well known artists and a liberal point of view are the main tools for the site to function in just that manner. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 07:50
this song is from one of their best albums, and it is a very good song !
Seriously, yes, Judas Priest played proggy music in the seventies, Rocka Rolla is bluesy hard-prog, Sad Wings is hard-prog, with sin after sin and stained class the proggy touch is less present but still they could be regarded as proto-prog metal (by prog-metal I refer to bands like Queensr˙che or Crimson Glory). With British Steel, they entered the world of glam metal. Painkiller marked a return to form and a surprise, since it not blended traditional heavy metal with thrash metal. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 09:10
. Well said. Again I have to agree with those that endorse JP's inclusion in the database. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 09:39
I don't feel that I have the qualifications to headline such an ambitious project. Having said that, you have my full support and I would like to help out in whatever way I can. Some remarks on this forum has shown me just how narrow minded some of the people are when it comes to progressive music. Furthermore ProgArchives is not suppose to be a place dedicated exclusively to the hard core prog fans. If we keep up this conservatory frame of mind this site will pretty much become a museum within the next 10 or so years.  I'm all for renewing the enthusiasm for progressive music outside it's obvious boundaries and attracting new listeners to the music that we cherish. I say adding Judas Priest is one of there moves. -------------
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 10:55
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^ Well, you're from Prog Metal team, having a bit of an open mind is needed there. After all, this is Rock site. I am from Crossover team, open mind is necessary here as well. We have some dealings with Pop you know :-D And well said Olav. That is the group of people I was referring to in my previous post. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:07
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Its great to see that those opposed to Priests inclusion are considered "close minded". Must be obvious that their inclusion has to be the right thing. So silly of me to miss that. So welcome aboard Halford and friends. Welcome all. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:14
 What's even worth is that you have not expanded on your thoughts outside of that one sentence on the first page. I would love to hear your thoughts!  -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:18
Sorry. But my point has been made. Whatever Admin decide I'll live with of course. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:20
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What point? Please elaborate!
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:26
The point that anyone disagreeing to their inclusion is considered closed minded and in some way not seeing the bigger picture. That they are trying to stifle PA even.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:41
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JP has been put forward to Admin a couple of times and, I think, rejected for Prog Related. I would prefer to see them in the PMetal genre IMHO but have been rejected there too. Rune2000 - I think it is kind of unfair ruling the site is close minded because of non inclusion of some bands. Remember the site evolves too, we have seen Budgie, Golden Earring to name a few listed in Prog related over time. Maybe it is time for you to send a new justification to Admin. I have not read all the threads, but considering the multitude of bands in the Prog Metal genre, what was the PMT's reason for rejection? Personally I think PA have it wrong to not have JP on here when Iron Maiden are ( X & Y....i know, don't crucify me), but maybe they will get on eventually. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:44
| I appreciate Olav's point, but I don't think that should be the primary consideration for admissions. Our evaluations should be based solely on the music and how it relates to our genre definitions, not how others view the site, or wide open considerations as to the site's "direction." My two cents. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:45
| It's not about if X, then Y. JP are one of the biggest influences on metal and ought to be here anyway. On the other hand, recognizing Maiden's role but not JP reeks of the size queen syndrome (refer Textbook's thread). |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:47
 First off, please tell us about your knowledge of JP and their music. Do you own or have you heard any of their albums, outside of the singles? Why do you not consider them to be in the same short list consisting of bands like Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden? Is it, for example, because their influence is not as widespread or because they made a few very commercial albums in the '80s and thus deviated from the progressive frame of mind? Last and most important; is there a specific paragraph of the prog related criteria that you think that Judas Priest doesn't qualify under? ...plus any other information that you would like to share with us. -------------
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Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:53
 I have not been a part of the PMT long enough to know the reasons behind the rejection of JP. Personally, I don't see them in the PM sub-genre due to the fact that the movement didn't really start before the late '80s, thus making JP more of a Proto-PM kind of act together with many others that have already been added under Prog Related moniker. -------------
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 12:28
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Isn't it enough to say that they were rejected? ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 12:33
Highly recommended if you'd much rather people didn't participate in discussions and just stayed away from the forums. Sorry if that sounds brusque, but I hope you do realize the import of what you are saying. |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 12:49
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It seems to me that a substantial number of special collaborators support the inclusion of Judas Priest into Prog Related. This ought to resonate with the admin team. I don't wish to push an issue beyond what is reasonable, but as I've said before it's been more than three years since they were evaluated and rejected so maybe they deserve another chance given the support they seem to have here? What is needed is that a special collaborator takes the suggestion to the admin team and ask for a re-evaluation based on the considerations raised in this thread. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 12:52
| Have they released new supportive material since the last eval? Otherwise I doubt they would want to re-eval something based on the same material, but you could ask. |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 12:58
Hence my recommendation that Rune 2000 do just that  ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 13:00
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according to a review posted on Amazon, JP was the link between first wave of heavy metal and prog metal. I cannot agree more :
5.0 out of 5 stars Modern Metal Starts Here,
By
http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A334CIVYO3MMXZ/ref=cm_cr_dp_pdp/182-4595577-0637038" rel="nofollow - - (REAL NAME) This review is from: Sad Wings of Destiny (Audio CD)
This is one of the most influential metal albums ever made. No rock collection is complete without this.
"Sad Wings" was the next step in metal after the initial wave of Sabbath, Purple, and Uriah Heep.Iron Maiden,
Mercyful Fate, Metallica, Fates Warning and virtually all of later progressive metal would be inconceivable had
this record never been made. Great writing, playing,changes in tempo, texture, and mood throughout all the
brilliant compositions. The opener "Victim Of Changes" is THE Essential metal song. Halford's vocal range is
astounding throughout. His style re-invents the metal vocalist here. The two guitar onslaught of Tipton
and Downing is staggering and blazes the trail for Hammett and Hetfield, Denner and Sherman,
and virtually any heavy band to come that would feature two axe slingers. This record commercially
was criminally ignored in it's time, but like all great underground works, those who bought it were influenced
and formed bands. Today's younger set may be a little mystified by the stone age production,
but any young musician wanting to attempt the heavy stuff should begin here. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 13:08
Discussion is one thing, beating a dead horse is another. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 13:09
I agree but with the addition that when it comes to admissions into Prog Related it is a little bit different than regarding admissions into the other categories. An admission (or rejection) for Prog Related should not be "based solely on the music" but also (in accordance with the official criteria for Prog Related) take into account the historical importance of the artist in question for Prog and its general influence on the "genuine" Prog categories. Prog Related is, after all, not a sub-genre of Prog, but has a special status and one cannot judge the appropriateness of a band for this special category solely by listening to the music in a vacuum. You probably agree with me, but it is a point that is often lost when it comes to suggestions for Prog Related. |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 13:19
Yes and no. (This has been up before in this very thread). The conceptual double album Nostradamus (that is one of the more progressive albums the band has ever made - though far from the best) was released only some months after the band was rejected. The special collaborator (whose name escapes me right now) who suggested Judas Priest to the admin team in 2008 said earlier in this thread that the debate continued after the rejection had been made official and that he brought Nostradamus to the admins attention. So as far as I understand, they did not get a proper re-evaluation after the release of this clearly relevant album. |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 14:07
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I'm not sure that the release of Nostradamusis is enough to get the point across. If I were to make the case for JP's addition it would, just like Karl previously mentioned, be based primarily on their '70s output which, in my opinion, bridged the gap between the early Metal influences like Deep Purple/Led Zeppelin/Black Sabbath and the NWoBHM movement. Both of these played a significant role in the shaping and the current state of the Progressive Metal sub-genres thus making JP eligible for addition to Prog Related. I would also try to base my case on numbers, this is why it would be interesting to see how many of the PA regulars actually would want to see JP being added to Prog Related. Plus, it would be equally interesting to see how many of those who object have actually heard albums like Sad Wings of Destiny/Sin After Sin /Stained Class and are not just making their assumptions based on a few singles that they heard back in the '80s. -------------
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 14:14
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Sounds like you have an idea for a poll there. |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 14:22
Go for it!
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 14:25
You might want to check this, because as I recall, Nost was considered. I just remember that title being talked about quite alot. Although perhaps I'm thinking of a post-voting discussion. In any case, I'm one to be inclusive as well, but I'm not for pushing already busy teams to re-do evals that have little chance of a different outcome. Unless significant additions to their case can be made since the last request. If you think so, then I wish you good luck though I'm not the one to champion the cause of this band |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 14:43
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that you're thinking of a post-rejection discussion. There is a link to the old thread in the original post of this thread. I did look into the matter and Easy Livin' announced the rejection of the band in April and Nostradamus was not released until June that same year.
Thanks, but as far as I know only special collaborators can bring suggestions to the admin team? Anyway, I agree that one should not push things beyond what is reasonable. We need to make a case that adds something to the case that was made back in 2008. |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 14:46
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Please note the phrasing: If I were to make the case for JP's addition... Currently I have some more important work on my hands than doing all the ground work for this re-evaluation. I'm sure that some other passionate JP enthusiast can help me out with creating a poll and carefully stating its intention. Now I'm off to the 10cc gig, see you guys tomorrow!  -------------
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Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 15:35
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I've now read through that old 2008 thread again and noted that the announcement of rejection came very, very quickly. Indeed, already at the first page of the 10 page thread. Could it be the case that the decision was rather rushed?
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 17:05
You know, I really don't care as much as to argue any further. Who has the
final say in prog related inclusions anyway? Maybe that team should just
vote and get it over with.
I'm mainly concerned about this consistency argument, which is is basically an endless 'If A is here, so should B' kinda argument. Using thtat logic we'll have a lot of influential artists here that we probably shouldn't be here. Like Manowar, who has a surprisingly strong case for PR: they made a concept album (Gods of War), wrote a 28-minute epic suite (Achilles, Agony and Ecstasy in Eight Parts), made a 9-minute ambient instrumental (Today Is a Good Day to Die), covered a classical composition (Sting of the Bumblebee), made a song with orchestra and choir (The Crown and the Ring), constantly tell epic stories in heir lyrics, and surely have had some influence on prog metal, especially the power side of it. Do we really want them here though? I actually like them( ) but hellllllllllllll no. I just wanna make sure bands are considered on an individual basis rater than added for the sake of fairness. Two wrongs don't make a right...------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 17:32
JP, on the other hand, have a clear link to Iron Maiden and the early prog metal movement of the late '80s/early '90s. -------------
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 17:58
Are you sure you aren't talking about "I", but about "we" ? Not saying I want Manowar here, but I also am not saying that I don't want them here. The point is that we includes all of us (you, me, OP SouthSide...). Or at least I hope you're not referring to yourself in First person plural. There is a chance that by "we" you meant PA as a whole, but again, one person cannot speak for a whole sum of all collabs, special collabs, reviewers, admins and members. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 18:22
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But the expression is " Do we" and not "Do I". He is asking the question for the whole community. It is correct English usage. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 19:06
Not "inspired", but "had some influence on". I meant the whole prog-power genre like Symphony X, Kamelot, etc... That wasn't even the main point though, they qualify because of all those characteristics I listed that fall under the http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp#definition" rel="nofollow - definition of prog . I was just making a grotesque analogy, really. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 19:17
What Snowy said. "do we want" was a question for the whole community, "hell no" was my personal opinion. You're free to differ, of course. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 19:36
Symphony X (Michael Romeo and Michael Pinnella to be exact) were primarily inspired by the neo-classical metal movement and Yngwie Malmsteen, who is the pioneer of the genre, is listed under Prog Related. Kamelot is one of the bands that slipped by in the early days of the Prog Metal sub-genre and will remain on PA out of respect to the early Prog Metal Team collaborators but we have no intention of adding any more Power Metal bands any time soon. -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 05 2011 at 23:32
My dear sir, there is simply no comparison between JP and Manowar in terms of influence on metal and I believe you'd well know it. If you would like to make arguments for arguments sake, I am getting off. The point is, JP is one of the five or so most influential metal bands and therefore in an entirely different category from a band like Manowar. If you have prog metal on a prog rock database, a band like JP should be there in the PR category, it's a no brainer to me. That they are not here is the wrong, it's not a question of one more wrong to compound an earlier - I do believe Sabbath and Maiden have a legitimate place in a database of which prog metal is an important subset. |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: November 06 2011 at 15:23
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So anyone planning to put the Judas Priest debate up to a vote?
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Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 07:27
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 08:41
Kamelot definitely belong here, if not just for The Black Halo
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Posted By: FunkyM
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 10:39
I think an argument is being made that the interpretation of the genre definitions change over time as new bands are added. PA members and contributors at the end of 2011 are considering how the music of a band relates to the definitions by a standard that has been shaped by who is currently in the PA and this may result in someone coming to a different conclusion on a band than they would have in 2008. Even if it may not be the intent, the way that the definitions are viewed and applied against a specific artist's output is not static, but dynamic and changing as PA grows and adds new artists. That said, I don't think I'd bet the farm on the admins entertaining a re-evaluation of a band for PR with no significant new material (since the consensus seems to be that Nostradamus should not be the basis of an argument for re-eval). |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 12:09
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^ Understood, and it likely does happen as you describe. I'm just saying the members primary consideration of any suggestion is the music and how it fits the Defs. Not our image, not people's wishes for the site's "direction", or "because X is here, then Y should be" arguments. Those are fair topics of debate, but they are not evaluation considerations, at least not the primary.
Also, genre defintions themselves have been, and can be, adjusted as time goes by if the teams and/or Admin feel it necessary.
But we don't disagree on your main point that perceptions may change, and for this reason I did suggest to the OP that he proceed if he feels it's time. I'm not against inclusion. Just trying to describe the process a bit.
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 12:23
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^ However, we have a policy of respecting previous team's decisions. If there is re-evaluation, unanimous vote must be achieved. OK, we all team members know this mantra. The bad thing about this is that (as FunkyM said), in the same genre, but with different people in team, they COULD vote differently. For example band that was evaluated in 2008, 2 NO votes and 1 YES vote. If it was evaluated now and it received 2 YES votes and 1 NO, it would still be rejected, because previous incarnation of team rejected it. However, if the same band was never evaluated, it would still got 2 YES votes and 1 NO vote and it would be accepted to PA database. The same music, but different people. If the band/artist was never suggested before, it would be here, because new team would vote to accept it. This is one of these weird situation, when you apply certain rules of PA. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 13:12
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PA rules are approaching complexity of the US tax code. I'm glad tho, cuz Judas Priest has abotu as much to do with prog as Frank Sinatra.
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Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 13:26
It is true that Judas Priest is a "pure" Heavy Metal band and not a Prog band. But that does not disqualify them from the Prog Related category! If Judas Priest was a Prog band, I would suggest them not for Prog Related but for one of the "genuine" Prog categories. Prog Related is, after all, a category for non-Prog bands (that still bear some relation to Prog by either being influenced by Prog or having some influence on Prog or by having some other relevant relation to Prog). Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden too are Heavy Metal bands, not Prog bands, but they are related to Prog in some way or another, which makes them ideal for the Prog Related category. Indeed, it is exactly for bands like these (and I think Judas Priest too belongs to this group of bands) that the Prog Related category exists. I wonder why this point is so hard to get across to people. I have noticed that whenever some band is suggested for Prog Related, people always complain that they are not a Prog band and therefore should be rejected. That attitude would indeed be appropriate for any other category (except Proto-Prog) for which being Prog is a necessary condition for inclusion, but when it comes to Prog Related this is not so. Being "a pure Heavy Metal band" does indeed disqualify a band from any of the "genuine" Prog categories, but not from Prog Related! This is why I would certainly not support adding Judas Priest to Prog Metal or any other category except the only one where they would fit in - namely, Prog Related. |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 13:30
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I will add, however, that if there was a proto-prog metal genre, then I might concur with their inclusion for that.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 13:40
Being "a pure Heavy Metal band" would disqualify them from Prog Related too. Unless there was some other good reason to include them. And the guy6 you qouted didn't say they weren't Prog, just that they didn't belong. Meaning presumably not in prog Related either
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 14:09
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If Judas Priest were some obscure 70's band instead of Judas Priest, and they had only released Rocka Rolla and Sad Wings of Destiny, then they would probably get consideration for a category like crossover or heavy prog; maybe even enough to be added, after all they would be obscure, probably unknown by most and therefore not controversial. On the flipside, if Judas Priest were some obscure 90's metal band instead of Judas Priest and they had only released Painkiller and/or Nostradamus they would probably get consideration for prog metal, or maybe again heavy prog. If a suggestor were to select the right couple of songs to provide as samples to the evaluation team they could probably get added to the database. They aren't an obscure band though, they are Judas Priest and they also released British Steel and Defenders of the Faith and Screaming for Vengeance and Ram It Down, etc. This makes them controversial, like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden and Blue Oyster Cult before them. When previously discussing their possible addition to prog related with the admins my argument to them was that it was the 4 albums mentioned in the first paragraph that they needed to consider for determining if there was anything progressive about Judas Priest. The admins response to me that yes there were songs, and parts of songs that were progressive/somewhat progressive but not enough that they felt justified adding Judas Priest. They felt that Judas Priest's influence on bands within the Prog Metal universe was strictly on the metal side of the ledger, not the progressive side of the ledger. Honestly, I don't think that this argument will go any further. -------------
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Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 14:48
Well, I am pretty sure that by calling Judas Priest "a pure Heavy Metal band", b_olario meant that they are not Prog or not progressive enough or some such thing. But according to the official criteria of Prog Related a band need not be a Prog band in order to fit into Prog Related (indeed, if it was it would be suitable for a "real" subgenre of Prog): Putting it like this does not exclude a Heavy Metal band as long as it has some relevant relation to Prog, right? The "other good reasons" to include Judas Priest are the same or very similar to those for which Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden and several other bands were already included. |
Posted By: SouthSideoftheSky
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 14:56
Thank you, but I'm not quite sure how to proceed really. Many collaborators seem to agree that adding Judas Priest would be a good idea and I think that we have a case. But how to make the relevant people take notice? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 14:56
So as I said a "pure heavy metal " band would not qualify. Priest however had some variety in the early days but not enough, at least to me, for PR. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 15:06
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This is almost as entertaining as the abortion thread.
------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 15:10
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Oops, isn't this the abortion thread then? Let's make lists now, this JP abortion is getting too painful. Here's my attempt at a ranking of prog-relatedness of non-prog metal bands: Iron Maiden > Metallica > Judas Priest > Led Zeppelin > ... ... > Blue Oyster Cult > Black Sabbath |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 15:12
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No.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 15:19
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: November 07 2011 at 15:32
I think that what Rushfan wants to say is that when considering Judas Priest you should ignore all their non-prog-related releases, just like we ignore all non-prog released from the bands in the regular subs (or in prog-related for that matter, or is Metallica here for Load and Unload?) |