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Topic ClosedIf Prog-Punk was a sub-genre in PA
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cstack3 View Drop Down
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Points: 7281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2011 at 13:18
I know quite a bit about this era, as I was a gigging bassist during this time.   During my first jam session with the late, great "Marquis" in Chicago, I started the jam off with the bass line from Lark's Tongues In Aspic, Part 2.    The band loved it!!   We had a phenomenal guitarist who could play anything.  

Marquis and other bands hung out in a creepy, huge old meat warehouse in industrial Chicago ("The Space Place") that was the locus for "progressive punk" in the early 1980's.    Guys like David Bowie used to drop by all the time when they were in town (I never was there when he visited), it was like an incubator of the movement.  Bands like "The Corrosives" featured blazing jazz-rock trained guitarists....it made for an amazing sound!!  

The punk/prog movement was best exemplified by The Police, Blondie, Talking Heads, Big Country, and several others who went on to fame & glory (not the Marquis, alas!).  Fripp's "League of Gentlemen" project morphed into Discipline-era King Crimson, which maintained the very high energy level of the movement.  (Bassist Sara Lee nearly joined, but Levin was selected).  

It was all over in just a few years, late 1980's.  My project with Lon Jones (Fripp's student) and his CAVU band had elements of the punk/prog movement, but pop music continued to evolve, with thrash & speed metal, rap, and other forms taking over.   There are still a few holdouts like the Police, but by and large, prog-punk is a forgotten art form. 

Fun while it lasted!!  Man, we were LOUD!!!  Vital elements of prog punk included heavy use of synth, complex compositions, and fast tempos.  

This video is an excellent example of how prog artists of the 70's were struggling to adapt to the new musical demands late in the decade.  Notice the "punk accoutrements" that Fripp employed....skinny tie, narrow lapels, short hair, straight-leg dress pants, bad-ass expression etc.  

I knew Bob back in these days, he was quite enthusiastic about playing pogo-dance music!!  It was bizarre.  
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Points: 8138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2011 at 13:29
Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

But the very nature of punk, almost the antithesis of what prog was doing in the seventies, makes it difficult, but not impossible, for it's inclusion here.
 
pop and extreme metal are also not particularly "prog" in essence, but you will find a lot of their representatives in PA's database.
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Points: 617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2011 at 13:47
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

I knew Bob back in these days, he was quite enthusiastic about playing pogo-dance music!!  It was bizarre.
Didn't he also apply the term "dinosaurs" to the monster bands/music labels well before the punks did too?

Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

 I'm not that familiar with Cardiacs to be honest. Perhaps you're right.Embarrassed 
I'm all in favor of multiple labels. For example, the Wiki entry for Ruins:
Progressive rock, noise rock, zeuhl, math rock
Is much more accurate than the PA categorization. 
I meant that for the purposes of this site we have to pick the most descriptive label. Ruins don't sound much like the traditional French zeuhl, but they're the most prominent/influential band on the Japanese zeuhl scene so that's what most people associate them with. 
I do think there would be a lot of upsides to the site migrating to a new architecture based on the one at MMA and JMA - that system applies genre to individual album, so if you had (say) a space rock band which went symphonic in the mid-1970s and then returned in the mid-1980s with a new neo-prog sound the labels could all be applied accordingly.

But the migration would be such a massive undertaking I wouldn't count on the powers that be doing it unless and until they had a plentiful amount of time on their hands.
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Points: 7281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 00:35
Originally posted by Warthur Warthur wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

I knew Bob back in these days, he was quite enthusiastic about playing pogo-dance music!!  It was bizarre.

 
Didn't he also apply the term "dinosaurs" to the monster bands/music labels well before the punks did too?

Indeed he did!  I remember when I first met Bob, he was doing the famous "Drive to 1981" tour of US record stores, playing solo with his Frippertronics rig http://www.elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_Robert_Fripp_in_Melody_Maker_%281979%29

He held court to about 30 fans in a small audience, and proceeded to exclaim upon his theories that the major record companies were "dinosaurs" pursuing an outmoded business model.  It took years longer than he realized, but he was dead on the money, with record companies being hammered by self-publishing, downloads, i-tunes etc.!  

Bob was funnier than hell, he as an amazingly wry sense of humor!   I'd enjoy meeting up with him again, perhaps after he retires.  
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 00:42
Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

The majority of punk bands that I've heard mentioned here are not terribly progressive to my ears.  There are some punk bands that delved into odd time signatures and experimental music. 
 
 
Which is all that the archetypal prog metal bands do anyway. Very few of them show the appreciation of scope and structure that, say, Yes did.  Rather, like 2112, they start with one set of riffs and rather than exploring them, ditch them after a while for another and so on.  Cut out the odd time sigs and it's about as prog as Stargazer.
 
 


Edited by rogerthat - November 01 2011 at 00:48
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:11
^ That's just really really wrong. A Cardiacs song has about three CTTEs in it in terms of ideas in 4 minutes.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:20
Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

^ That's just really really wrong. A Cardiacs song has about three CTTEs in it in terms of ideas in 4 minutes.
 
I was talking about prog metal, not Cardiacs.
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Points: 11711 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:21
I'll nominate the great obscure Athletico Spizz 80 (they were more known when they were Spizz Energy)

 

Maybe Lemon Kittens?
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:32
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

^ That's just really really wrong. A Cardiacs song has about three CTTEs in it in terms of ideas in 4 minutes.
 
I was talking about prog metal, not Cardiacs.

Oh yeah! Well... It's a shame to criticize any genre like this honestly...
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:42
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I'll nominate the great obscure Athletico Spizz 80 (they were more known when they were Spizz Energy)

 

Maybe Lemon Kittens?

This is really really cool! Who are these guys?
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 08:55
Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

^ That's just really really wrong. A Cardiacs song has about three CTTEs in it in terms of ideas in 4 minutes.
 
I was talking about prog metal, not Cardiacs.

Oh yeah! Well... It's a shame to criticize any genre like this honestly...
 
I am not criticizing the genre per se, just calling into question how progressive it is if something like Cardiacs is ostensibly not progressive enough as per the argument of that person above. Just saying that if prog punk can be argued as not progressive and just experimental and dabbling in odd time signatures, then that applies to a lot of prog metal. Again, that is just a discussion of how progressive or not it is...I don't think music becomes better or worse for being more or less progressive, that is still only one aspect of what makes music tick.
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Points: 11711 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 09:09
Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I'll nominate the great obscure Athletico Spizz 80 (they were more known when they were Spizz Energy)

This is really really cool! Who are these guys?


Glad you like 'em. Do A Runner from 1980 is probably my favorite post punk (or whatever it is) album. Mostly quite intricate arrangements and several different sections in every track. But still short, sweet with an undeniable punk energy and attitude. They make complex punk sound like the most natural thing in the world.

Read up, and check out their song New Species as well.
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Points: 617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 11:14
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

 He held court to about 30 fans in a small audience, and proceeded to exclaim upon his theories that the major record companies were "dinosaurs" pursuing an outmoded business model.  It took years longer than he realized, but he was dead on the money, with record companies being hammered by self-publishing, downloads, i-tunes etc.! 
Yeah, I think Fripp overestimated the extent to which "small, independent mobile units" (whether those are independent record labels or musicians/bands) could compete in the market without a system like the Internet to allow them to bypass the traditional distribution systems entirely, but the punk era did at least bring in a DIY creed and prompt a bunch of indie labels to start up. I think the punk/New Wave explosion sowed the seeds of the revolution and got it rolling, and then once the Internet got ubiquitous it became a medium through which the revolution could advance significantly faster. Either way, Fripp's incredible level of foresight has always impressed me.


Edited by Warthur - November 01 2011 at 11:15
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Points: 7281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 18:04
Originally posted by Warthur Warthur wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

 He held court to about 30 fans in a small audience, and proceeded to exclaim upon his theories that the major record companies were "dinosaurs" pursuing an outmoded business model.  It took years longer than he realized, but he was dead on the money, with record companies being hammered by self-publishing, downloads, i-tunes etc.! 
Yeah, I think Fripp overestimated the extent to which "small, independent mobile units" (whether those are independent record labels or musicians/bands) could compete in the market without a system like the Internet to allow them to bypass the traditional distribution systems entirely, but the punk era did at least bring in a DIY creed and prompt a bunch of indie labels to start up. I think the punk/New Wave explosion sowed the seeds of the revolution and got it rolling, and then once the Internet got ubiquitous it became a medium through which the revolution could advance significantly faster. Either way, Fripp's incredible level of foresight has always impressed me.

Indeed!  Fripp is generally right on the money on most things, and he envisioned a closer, more wired world long before the Internet became commonplace.  

The punk/new wave revolution managed to bypass the record companies with the self-issued EP format....for much less than the cost of a full, pressed-vinyl LP, bands could chug out EPs to get the word out.  Now, bands do much the same with free downloads from their own websites.  

However, Fripp had some stinkers in the mix as well....he broke up the LTIA Crimson (over Bruford's strenuous objections) because he had apocalyptic visions of the near future.  In fact, some of this came to be, with train bombings in London, anthrax attacks in the USA etc., but we haven't slid into the abyss....yet!    I think he was perhaps 100 years ahead of his time.  

His "new standard tuning" has never quite taken off to the extent he was hoping.  I just received this email from his Guitar Craft team:

-----------------------------

Dear Team,


This appeal is being sent to long term members of the Guitar Circle Community worldwide, if for any reason you do not want to receive this kind of information please let us know.


To Those Who Know And Are Known,


The Guitar Circle of North America has been collecting contributions in NA and has transfered funds to the GC Office recently, for this we're deeply grateful.


The raised amount helped us to keep going but in order to support the continuity of the GC Office, the Courses, the Special Projects and to sponsor participation of committed Crafties currently in financial trouble we do need more help.


Clearly not everyone can travel and make contributions, but perhaps we can all make a contribution from where we are and within our possibilities.


The economic crisis is global, particularly difficult in Latin America, but still... it's difficult in NA and EU as well, and Crafties from those areas need to be supported too, in fact this is happening already.


It won't be possible to fly in a large team from one continent to the other, but one of us (staff) can be flown in and work with a given team, or one of the local ensemble leaders can be flown in to a course and take back part of the experience and information to their teams.


Many thanks for the contributions received so far (NA, EU and SA), this makes so much possible! yet it is still far from the target and it might simply be because we are not all really aware of how important this appeal-request actually is, Projects in Latin America are no longer financeable, in Europe we can just about break even sometimes, the AAD courses are generating some funds as there are "no expenses" involved... but all in all we're running on "reserve tank"...


Hence this request to trusted members of the GC Community: can we make an effort to make certain things possible that are currently seemingly impossible?


The GC Office is committed to support the poor, the unemployed, the students... anyone that has a good heart, takes it seriously and is committed.


Contributions can easily be made directlly to GCE via paypal:


https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=5KUSX4UQXMLPA


Bank transfers are also fine if paypal doesn't work for you, just contact the GCE Office for details.


-------------

....poor Bob, he had so wished for his Guitar Craft to transform the world of guitar!   His tuning requires fingers 12 inches long to play (his fingers are about that long), so it hasn't taken off just yet.  


By all means, donate if you can!  Cheers, Chuck (former bassist to Lon Jones, Craftie from Tulsa, Oklahoma USA)
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 20:25
He predicted a collapse of unprecedented proportions in the 90s.  Guess he didn't anticipate dotcom but if the looming crisis starts to take casualties, it will be the biggest since the Great Depression.  Right on the money, but too far ahead of his time, like his music,.
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Points: 4671 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2011 at 23:11
Very surprised that Killing Joke has not been mentioned in this thread!
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Points: 5964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 07:19
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I'll nominate the great obscure Athletico Spizz 80 (they were more known when they were Spizz Energy)

 


I love this. Thanks for bringing them to my attention!

I might as well mention The Diagram Brothers and Stump, who are my personal favourites from the murky world of obscure, proggy post-punk.


Edited by The Hemulen - November 02 2011 at 07:19
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 13:16
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

^ That's just really really wrong. A Cardiacs song has about three CTTEs in it in terms of ideas in 4 minutes.
 
I was talking about prog metal, not Cardiacs.

Oh yeah! Well... It's a shame to criticize any genre like this honestly...
 
I am not criticizing the genre per se, just calling into question how progressive it is if something like Cardiacs is ostensibly not progressive enough as per the argument of that person above. Just saying that if prog punk can be argued as not progressive and just experimental and dabbling in odd time signatures, then that applies to a lot of prog metal. Again, that is just a discussion of how progressive or not it is...I don't think music becomes better or worse for being more or less progressive, that is still only one aspect of what makes music tick.

Of course that being counted as prog or not really has nothing to do with it. But these are people who literally in many occasions took someone like Captain Beefheart or Gentle Giant and meshed it up with the Sex Pistols. Prog-Punk if there ever was such a thing. Well there isn't really such a thing but bolaoifhgjapodhgasd.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 20:11
Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

^ That's just really really wrong. A Cardiacs song has about three CTTEs in it in terms of ideas in 4 minutes.
 
I was talking about prog metal, not Cardiacs.

Oh yeah! Well... It's a shame to criticize any genre like this honestly...
 
I am not criticizing the genre per se, just calling into question how progressive it is if something like Cardiacs is ostensibly not progressive enough as per the argument of that person above. Just saying that if prog punk can be argued as not progressive and just experimental and dabbling in odd time signatures, then that applies to a lot of prog metal. Again, that is just a discussion of how progressive or not it is...I don't think music becomes better or worse for being more or less progressive, that is still only one aspect of what makes music tick.

Of course that being counted as prog or not really has nothing to do with it. But these are people who literally in many occasions took someone like Captain Beefheart or Gentle Giant and meshed it up with the Sex Pistols. Prog-Punk if there ever was such a thing. Well there isn't really such a thing but bolaoifhgjapodhgasd.


I don't think you have got my point at all so nevermind.
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Points: 617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2011 at 23:40
Is this prog-punk?
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