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Padraic ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
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Worded too strongly perhaps - if it were up to me, I wouldn't have the category. I don't think it adds much value to the site. |
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37232 |
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^^ Thanks Chris!
^ Pat, I like having the category. I think it has value in that it brings more people to PA (which can bring more revenue to the site as well as get more people into music from the Prog categories), and I also think that it can be useful as a resource for finding bands/ artists with a perceived relation to Prog (the amount of relation ican be subjective, of course and some in PR I think might be better in a prog category). For me it would be more valuabe if it were organised better and the parameters were expanded. I'd like to see significant representation of music related to all of the different so-called prog categories at PA and be able to easily search, for instance, for progressive folk rock related music, but i digress too much. Some of the PR additions have ranked amongst the most exciting for me -- for instance, Terry Riley (though i thought he had a case for progressive Electronic, I'm glad that having PR facilitatied including such an artist in PA). I really think it has the potential to be a very exciting archive for progressive composer/ musicians -- though I would like another related category set up for non-rock ones with a relation, within parameters, to music in the PA so-called prog categories. There are albums in Prog related that fit my prog category definitions (in some cases I would rather an album based category for those, but that's another topic which few seem to support -- and who doesn't want album tagging?). I think the category could be more useful for documenting more acts that have a relation to, or touch on, the various progressive rock, and progressive rock-related, movements. It is a bit nebulous though. Much like with Prog and non-prog, one person's prog-related can be another person's prog. If this were my site, I'd change a hell of a lot. Keep on wanting to make my own progressive music site, but it's a lot of work. EDIT: I'm so prone to typos. Should use a spell check. Edited by Logan - October 15 2011 at 16:59 |
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beaverteeth92 ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() Joined: December 31 2008 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Okay so here are reasons Waits would be ideal for RIO:
1. Unique, highly unconventional instrumentation and vocals (Stroh violin, waterphone, broken pump organ, bass marimba, wagon wheel) 2. Mix of styles (cabaret, jazz, blues, experimental, industrial, etc.) 3. Occasional concept albums (Rain Dogs, Alice, The Black Rider) 4. Lyrics on supernatural or unusual subjects (Everything in his discography) Now please give me reasons as to why he shouldn't be in it.
Edited by beaverteeth92 - October 15 2011 at 17:10 |
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Padraic ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
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ExittheLemming ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
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1 - So do the loveable Thai Elephant Orchestra (if only they could sing alas) 2 - The Sensational Alex Harvey Band tick all these boxes 3 - The Osmonds and Harry Nilsson have recorded concept albums 4 - The Fall have written songs about exorcism, citizens band radio and the first chairman of the English Football Association |
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Alitare ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 08 2008 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 3595 |
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I've been wanting him here for ages - never going to happen. I also want Stevie Wonder here (on the grounds that, even if Songs in the Key of Life isn't that progressive, it's absolutely the most morally perfect album ever created. I don't even agree with most of the morals it contains and I admit they're better than mine. Stevie Wonder is simply a better person than me.)
I don't see why he isn't on here, though. To my ears, most of Swordfishtrombones is entry-material. I think it's because he never wrote a twenty minute long song about a galactic-imperial space battle that contained an eight minute mellotron solo in 17/4 time signature. If only he'd do that!
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Sheavy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 28 2010 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 2866 |
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Every band you mentioned does not contain all those four points though. I also think The Sensational Alex Harvey band should be under Prog Related, but........
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Chris S ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
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Jon Anderson is under prog related
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...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
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beaverteeth92 ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() Joined: December 31 2008 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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1. Don't know them, but meeting one point means nothing. 2. Can't find much information on them, but I'm listening now. They sound kind of like glam rock with a tinge of Man Man, but not very proggy or experimental. 3. Apparently concept albums are important to be considered "progressive." It's not my rule, and again, neither of the artists you mentioned fit all the boxes. 4. I probably could make an argument for The Fall for prog related after listening to their 80s stuff (Hex Enduction Hour), but again, weird subjects alone isn't enough to just be prog. And for the third time, they don't meet all of these criteria.
Edited by beaverteeth92 - October 15 2011 at 23:58 |
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Anthony H. ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 11 2010 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 6088 |
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Wow. No.
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Bonnek ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 01 2009 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 4521 |
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Even by the loosest of definitions I can't see how Waits is related to Prog Rock. |
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DamoXt7942 ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Joined: October 15 2008 Location: Okayama, Japan Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Hi, beaver.
I'm not familiar with Tom really, and simultaneously very curious how his album "that you consider his most progressive one" sounds to me. Can I evaluate his "Swordfishtrombones"? Any other album do you think progressive? Edited by DamoXt7942 - October 16 2011 at 02:39 |
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DamoXt7942 ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Joined: October 15 2008 Location: Okayama, Japan Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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And checked Tom's "Swordfishtrombones".
A good album indeed, but cannot be fit for RIO / Avant-Prog subgenre nor progressive rock (can be called as avantgarde blues methinks). Any other candidate? |
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beaverteeth92 ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() Joined: December 31 2008 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Why? So far, I hear a lot of people saying "Well he's just not prog." I gave a list of reasons as to why he should be in RIO and I've had one person barely address it. If he's "avantgarde blues" then so is Beefheart, as the songs on "Swordfishtrombones" could easily be mistaken for him at times. |
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The Hemulen ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 31 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 5964 |
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Ok, first of all I don't want to repeat myself so please check out what I said the other recent Tom Waits thread (linked right near the top of the first page of this thread) before responding to what I'm going to say here.
A few things to consider before you continue to make your case. 1. Try to understand the difference between RIO and avant-prog. It's laid out pretty clearly on the genre definition page on PA and it would really help your case if you showed that you really understood what both of those terms mean and how Tom Waits may or may not relate to them. (Short version is, Tom Waits has got bugger all to do with RIO). 2. Don't just pull out random songs - give us an album which you think fully makes the case for his inclusion as an avant-prog artist. In other words, an album which is not only avant-garde in nature but could uncontroversially be described as progressive rock. Not experimental blues, not avant-garde jazz or wonky carnival cabaret music but progressive rock. Swordfishtrombones has already been rejected on this basis so please point us in the direction of something which makes the case better than that album. 3. Enough of the Beefheart comparisons already. THIS is why Beefheart is included under avant-prog: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkzC8RYT1vY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kme3Y1RpmUg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd6iTrXRDTU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqRHr5pEIFU Like I say, show me an album where Waits was consistently as complex, avant-garde and just plain rocking as Beefheart and maybe he's in with a chance. |
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beaverteeth92 ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() Joined: December 31 2008 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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1. Even if there is a difference, it's irrelevant for purposes of this discussion because both are included on the same page. But for avant prog, Waits clearly meets almost all of the criteria.
2. I'm flat-out asking why Swordfishtrombones was rejected on that basis, since I gave four specific reasons as to why that album and Tom Waits are good enough for inclusion. So far, the only reasoning I have is that someone listened to it and arbitrarily decided that it wasn't progressive. I also added more reasons above, as you can see. 3. Swordfishtrombones, Rain Dogs, Frank's Wild Years, Blood Money |
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Andy Webb ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin Joined: June 04 2010 Location: Terria Status: Offline Points: 13298 |
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Oh my gosh let it die, please...
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Anthony H. ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 11 2010 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 6088 |
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lazland ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13795 |
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Here here! ![]() |
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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beaverteeth92 ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() Joined: December 31 2008 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Sorry. Has my reasoning interrupted the arbitrary Tom Waits hatred going on in this thread?
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