It's almost a crime that Tom Waits, probably among the most stylistically creative musical geniuses of the 20th Century is not on ProgArchives.  Virtually everything since "Swordfishtrombones" (and some stuff before it) has exemplified Waits's gritty, avant-garde style that has cemented his reputation as a musical tour-de-force.  He seems like an ideal candidate for RIO, as his most musically-similar counterpart, Captain Beefheart is listed under that label.

I'm a fan, but I'm not sure if he's strange enough for RIO or avant.

I'd give him a yes vote for crossover if he was sent there.

 

 

 

There is quite a lot of non prog in prog archives.

But Deep Purple, The Beatles, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, Wishbone Ash, Black Sabbath, and Blue Öyster Cult are?  As in all of them are more "progressive" than Tom Waits?

How exactly are we defining the differences between Avant-Garde rock and Avant Prog?  Because it doesn't seem like there's anything separating the two other than that one category contains bands that members of this website may not like for whatever reason.

Just because that is the case that doesn't mean we should add more non prog.

I never came to any conclusion. All acts should be judged on their own merits.

Well yeah, I would prefer they weren't here but they aren't going to be removed. I don't like the PR category as a whole, but it's here so the best I can do is ignore it (and occasionally bitch about it. )

, Greg...great points made above this post too. Subjective is probably becoming the most important word on PA

1.  Unique, highly unconventional instrumentation and vocals (Stroh violin, waterphone, broken pump organ, bass marimba, wagon wheel)

2.  Mix of styles (cabaret, jazz, blues, experimental, industrial, etc.)

3.  Occasional concept albums (Rain Dogs, Alice, The Black Rider)

4.  Lyrics on supernatural or unusual subjects (Everything in his discography)

Now please give me reasons as to why he shouldn't be in it.

I don't see why he isn't on here, though. To my ears, most of Swordfishtrombones is entry-material. I think it's because he never wrote a twenty minute long song about a galactic-imperial space battle that contained an eight minute mellotron solo in 17/4 time signature. If only he'd do that!

 

Every band you mentioned does not contain all those four points though. I also think The Sensational Alex Harvey band should be under Prog Related, but........

1.  Don't know them, but meeting one point means nothing.

2.  Can't find much information on them, but I'm listening now.  They sound kind of like glam rock with a tinge of Man Man, but not very proggy or experimental.

3.  Apparently concept albums are important to be considered "progressive."  It's not my rule, and again, neither of the artists you mentioned fit all the boxes.

4.  I probably could make an argument for The Fall for prog related after listening to their 80s stuff (Hex Enduction Hour), but again, weird subjects alone isn't enough to just be prog.  And for the third time, they don't meet all of these criteria.

Why?  So far, I hear a lot of people saying "Well he's just not prog."  I gave a list of reasons as to why he should be in RIO and I've had one person barely address it.  If he's "avantgarde blues" then so is Beefheart, as the songs on "Swordfishtrombones" could easily be mistaken for him at times.

Here here!

So please, stop trying.

If he was rejected, accept the fact that he was rejected. Please.

Now you're being silly.

I do not hate Tom Waits - in fact, I would go as far as to say i like some of his stuff.

I just do not regard him as being even related to prog, let alone a full blown prog artist.

But is he seriously not good enough for even prog-related while bands like Blue Öyster Cult and Deep Purple are?

I don't think anyone said anything about not being good enough for PR or whatever.   I love him to bits, he is brilliant.  But I don't think he is PR in any way either (Although I'm not really bothered). 

 

You don't necessarily have to be good to be 'Prog Related'  you could (I guess) be rubbish prog!  (Although some might say thats impossible).

Well, can you define these points?

Has he made an

1) Influence on progressive rock - The groundbreaking work of artists like Led Zepplin and David Bowie affected many genres of rock, including at times progressive rock. Although both of these artists created rock music in a dizzying array of genres, both contributed to the ongoing history of progressive rock several times within the span of their careers.

Is he in a relative

2) Location - Progressive rock did not develop at the same time all over the world. It may surprise some people that as late as the mid-70s the US had very few original progressive rock bands that did not sound like exact copies of British bands. Journey was one of the first US bands to present a uniquely American brand of prog-rock before they eventually became a mainstream rock band. We have collaborators from all over the world who tell us which bands helped the progressive rock scene develop in their corner of the globe, even if those bands were like Journey and were known more for being mainstream rock bands.

Was he a 

3) Members of important progressive rock bands - Although most of the recorded solo output of artists like Greg Lake and David Gilmour falls more in a mainstream rock style, their contributions to progressive rock in their respective bands insures them a place in our prog-related genre.

Does he have an element of

4) Timeliness - Like many genres, prog-rock has had its ups and downs. In the late 70s and early 80s prog-rock was barely a blip on the radar. During this time artists such as David Bowie and Metallica released albums that captured key elements of the spirit of prog rock and did so while contributing their own original modern elements to the mix.

Is he an

5) Integral part of the prog-rock scene - Sometimes you just had to be a part of the scene during a certain time period to understand how some bands fit with the prog rock scene of their time. Although Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Wishbone Ash may seem like mere hard rock bands, in their time they stood apart from other hard rockers with their more serious lyrical content and more developed compositions. Put simply, in the early 70s every prog-rock record collector usually had full collections of all three of these artists. These three bands were very much part of the prog-rock scene without being total prog-rock bands them selves.

It´s the rock quotient that perhaps is missing. Just like Sun Ra or Stravinsky for that matter - progressive music doesn´t always contain rock. 

BUT this is after all a prog rock resource. 

BTW I have about 10 Tom Waits albums, and I love the guy and his wonderful ashtray voice.

8) Occasionally sounds like member of Muppets -

 

 

(I know its been posted before! but hey !)

 

It seems to me that enough members feel strongly enough about Waits' inclusion that maybe he should be evaluated.  I've certainly had to listen to less progressive stuff than Tom Waits and decide if the band is worthy.

@admins- Can we maybe separate RIO and Avant Prog now? They really don't have much to do with each other and it is confusing to have two unrelated genres under the same umbrella.

I agree, so we have a controversial artist that would require RIO/Avant evaluation. Whether he gets rejected out of hand is not the point, he deserves a fair evaluation by that team. And if that fails then the person motivating the inclusion can ask an Special Collab to put Waits to Admin for possible PR assessment...... sounds reasonable enough

 

I'm not familiar with a lot of Tom Waits material, but what I have heard strikes me as avant singer/songwriter fare. 

 There you have it! Also as per Evolver's notes above Waits can be assessed in crossover. Being controversial we would need unanimous votes from the team though and if Avant don't fit I am not sure where does.....

 

I still don't understand why it isn't called Progrockarchives.

Because prog is synonymous with prog rock and ProgRockArchives is just damn redundant. 

Certain artists seem to evoke a strange fear in some members here.  Tom Waits seems to be one of them.  The Grateful Dead are another. (I am not a Dead Head - I like 3 or 4 of their albums. that's it)  The Dead have a handful of prog albums, more than some accepted bands, and without them we might not have other bands, like Phish or Umphrey's McGee.  Their influence is indeniable. 

 

Waits started out as a bluesy singer/songwriter, but branched out into experimental territory in the eighties.  I haven't followed him since, but what I have by him is out there.

 

In my opinion, it is more important for us to be inclusive than exclusive.  We should celebrate any artist's pushing of the boundaries.