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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2011 at 16:22
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Yes I know.....I have decided not to get a sub for my system.....I am still shopping for new speakers. Currently looking at B&W CM1, they have amazing bass response, EPOS and Klipsch all bookshelf models. The problem is not having a store that carries stuff you can audition. Also looking at the NAD C356BEE integrated amp.

My system is old I have an Onkyo Integra TX-870 receiver (20yr old), Sony CDP302 CD deck (25yr old), ADC SS100SL EQ (20yr old), Audio Technica AT-LP120 Direct Drive Turntable (1yr old), Bose Acoustimass speakers (20yr old).....Everything works fine, but now that my kids are grown and we are not spending all our available cash on them....I am looking for new equipment. I am kinda glad I waited since technology has improved so much in the past 10yrs....
 
 
I would change the speakers too. Acoustimass systems by Buy Other Sound Equipment don't even cover the entire frequency range. 
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Points: 17845 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2011 at 16:23
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Your system appears to lack one vital component Oliver. Confused
 
A cassette deck??
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Points: 17845 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2011 at 16:28
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Yes I know.....I have decided not to get a sub for my system.....I am still shopping for new speakers. Currently looking at B&W CM1, they have amazing bass response, EPOS and Klipsch all bookshelf models. The problem is not having a store that carries stuff you can audition. Also looking at the NAD C356BEE integrated amp.

My system is old I have an Onkyo Integra TX-870 receiver (20yr old), Sony CDP302 CD deck (25yr old), ADC SS100SL EQ (20yr old), Audio Technica AT-LP120 Direct Drive Turntable (1yr old), Bose Acoustimass speakers (20yr old).....Everything works fine, but now that my kids are grown and we are not spending all our available cash on them....I am looking for new equipment. I am kinda glad I waited since technology has improved so much in the past 10yrs....
 
 
I would change the speakers too. Acoustimass systems by Buy Other Sound Equipment don't even cover the entire frequency range. 
 
Yea I know...I am looking at B&W CM1, I really like those, they sound amazing. The Bose my wife bought me for Christmas 20yrs ago cause I had these huge honkin 36" tall box 3way speakers with 12" woofers and she hated them..too big for the family room. The Bose bass module does a nice job but the swivel twin cubes do me no justice Cry
The new speakers will be my first purchase........
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2011 at 16:40
Now that we are at it, here's a quick view of my simple setup: 
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2011 at 17:38
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Yes I know.....I have decided not to get a sub for my system.....I am still shopping for new speakers. Currently looking at B&W CM1, they have amazing bass response, EPOS and Klipsch all bookshelf models. The problem is not having a store that carries stuff you can audition. Also looking at the NAD C356BEE integrated amp.

My system is old I have an Onkyo Integra TX-870 receiver (20yr old), Sony CDP302 CD deck (25yr old), ADC SS100SL EQ (20yr old), Audio Technica AT-LP120 Direct Drive Turntable (1yr old), Bose Acoustimass speakers (20yr old).....Everything works fine, but now that my kids are grown and we are not spending all our available cash on them....I am looking for new equipment. I am kinda glad I waited since technology has improved so much in the past 10yrs....
 
 
I would change the speakers too. Acoustimass systems by Buy Other Sound Equipment don't even cover the entire frequency range. 
 
Yea I know...I am looking at B&W CM1, I really like those, they sound amazing. The Bose my wife bought me for Christmas 20yrs ago cause I had these huge honkin 36" tall box 3way speakers with 12" woofers and she hated them..too big for the family room. The Bose bass module does a nice job but the swivel twin cubes do me no justice Cry
The new speakers will be my first purchase........

I love B&Ws... I can't afford the CM1s but I'll get me some 685s (with employee price they are so much more affordable Tongue). 

Bose, well... I sell them when customers (usually tourists) really really want them and I can't really convince them to buy better stuff and because they are very profit-rich, but man do they suck. This is a good article on Bose suckiness.  Tongue

Get the CM1s man. Once you change your Acoustimass, you won't believe what happened. You'll think your ears grew younger Tongue
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Points: 17845 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2011 at 18:33
The Bose system has treated me well....especially with my wife and the "decor" issue, so I can't complain too much. When I heard the CM1s I asked the seller which sub was on....he looked over the computer screen where u pick what u wanna hear and said...none selected. I said liar!! I walked around to each sub and put my hand on them....I ate crow!!
I made sure he had no processor or EQ and the int amp he was running made sure all tone controls were flat.......amazing bass response from those suckers!!
But yea USD999.99 per pair......I kinda hoping they would drop some since I hear they are not making them anymore, at least that's what the Magnolia HiFi guy told me...
 
But I like them..... 
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2011 at 03:16
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Your system appears to lack one vital component Oliver. Confused


Yes, a TT. It happened that at one point i had to choose between CD and vinyl because of financial restrictions.
And as i already owned a nice CD collection, i eventually choosed CD.
I don't regret it as vinyl is complicated at several levels.
But if i had time and money, i'd have vinyl.

What may lack as well is a good tuner. I also own a tapedeck Nakamichi 1000 and a Pioneer CTF1000 that sound better than my Cd setup using a good tape but tapedeck is the most fragile source an it always had trouble at some point.

Edited by oliverstoned - September 15 2011 at 03:22
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Points: 17845 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2011 at 10:18
That's an interesting article T on Bose.....I have the Acoustimass Series II 2.1 channel system, again purchased around 1994-95......back then I don't remember Bose being the "marketing hype" that it may be now. All I remember is those very popular Bose 901 speakers that all the HiFi mags back in the day used to rave about and actually gave good reviews on.
I agree on the cube speakers......but I argue the bass module, it does a very good job. You can stand in any part of my rec room which is about 450sqft full of furniture and you cannot detect where the bass is coming from.....Although I fully know technology has come miles from 1994 and anything today kicks my speakers butt easily.
Also the article discusses the driver size that 5.5" drivers cannot be used as woofers.....well I see most bookshelf speakers have 5"-8" bass/mid drivers, so not sure I agree there. The new bookshelf speakers have designed very good ports to aide in bass response......Like I said the B&W CM1 are amazing......but with a kevlar driver and a very well designed port its clear why.
 
Today...I think there are many, many better options than Bose, I think they have taken advantage of their past years success by raking in the bucks....good for them, Bose does not "make you" pull your wallet out and make that purchase....Obviously they have a strong marketing team..nothing wrong with that.
 
The same can be said of B&W, Linn, Epos and all those $20K speaker systems.....pretty pictures and high end words don't validate big bucks......I mean I love those new B&W PM1s.....but $4k for bookshelfs?? nah..
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2011 at 10:32
^ due to the very long wavelengths of low frequency sound waves and the fact that our ears are small and close together means we cannot tell the direction of bass notes very well at all (if at all) - this is why you only need one monaural subwoofer in any set-up.
 
This goes back to the phase relationship thing of the other thread  - to tell direction of a sound the sound wave arrives at one ear slightly out of phase to the other - we process this phase difference as "direction". Essentially every waveform will be delayed by the same time but if the wavelength is very long then this time lag will represent a smaller proportion of the whole cycle and so will be harder for us to process.
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Points: 17845 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2011 at 12:06
Thanks Dean....totally makes sense. But is it then my mind playing tricks on me, when I actually see the sub under a table or next to a setup (like in Olivers case)...that I can tell where the low end is coming from and if I move around it seems to "disappear", the sound that is.
I have my Bose sub tucked behind a sofa at least 4.5m away from the small cube speakers.....I guess our ears can play tricks on us......
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2011 at 13:14
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Thanks Dean....totally makes sense. But is it then my mind playing tricks on me, when I actually see the sub under a table or next to a setup (like in Olivers case)...that I can tell where the low end is coming from and if I move around it seems to "disappear", the sound that is.
I have my Bose sub tucked behind a sofa at least 4.5m away from the small cube speakers.....I guess our ears can play tricks on us......
That's the power of suggestion and how those tricks that the mind plays on us can affect our judgement of sound - things can sound better if they look better - it's like food, we cannot enjoy food that looks bad anywhere near as well as we do when it looks good - all of our senses come into play when our brains try and interpret the world.
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2011 at 15:22
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Thanks Dean....totally makes sense. But is it then my mind playing tricks on me, when I actually see the sub under a table or next to a setup (like in Olivers case)...that I can tell where the low end is coming from and if I move around it seems to "disappear", the sound that is.
I have my Bose sub tucked behind a sofa at least 4.5m away from the small cube speakers.....I guess our ears can play tricks on us......


It should not as extreme low is omnidirectional...or maybe it's because it's NOT real extreme low
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2011 at 16:55
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Thanks Dean....totally makes sense. But is it then my mind playing tricks on me, when I actually see the sub under a table or next to a setup (like in Olivers case)...that I can tell where the low end is coming from and if I move around it seems to "disappear", the sound that is.
I have my Bose sub tucked behind a sofa at least 4.5m away from the small cube speakers.....I guess our ears can play tricks on us......


It should not as extreme low is omnidirectional...or maybe it's because it's NOT real extreme low
True, 80Hz isn't that low and it certainly isn't sub-sonic.
 
"For frequencies below 800 Hz, the dimensions of the head (ear distance 21.5 cm, corresponding to an interaural time delay of 625 µs), are smaller than the half wavelength of the sound waves. So the auditory system can determine phase delays between both ears without confusion. Interaural level differences are very low in this frequency range, especially below about 200 Hz, so a precise evaluation of the input direction is nearly impossible on the basis of level differences alone. As the frequency drops below 80 Hz it becomes difficult or impossible to use either time difference or level difference to determine a sound's lateral source, because the phase difference between the ears becomes too small for a directional evaluation." (wikipedia)
 
Your sub is specified from 16-200Hz - well within the range where direction is indeterminate on level alone but can be detected on phase-errors if the signal is strong enough.Of course this presupposes that there are tones between 80-200Hz in the music you are listening to and they haven't been cut-off by the crossover filter in your subwoofer amp - if the frequecies below 80Hz dominate the signal then you will not be able to locate the sound using just your ears. However that doesn't change the fact that if you can see the subwoofer then you subconsciously know where the sound is coming from.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2011 at 19:23
Well today I bought the B&Ws 685s. 650 USD normal, 357 with my price as an honorable Magnolia employee. My system gets better and one day it might push walls, though it's still quite far from it.
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Points: 17845 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2011 at 11:21
^ Nice!! Congrats......I think I heard those at the Magnolia HiFi in Bellevue, WA store...........Dude that is an awesome price!!!! CM1s not so much Cry
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2011 at 11:39
The CM1s are so amazing but they I can't afford them even with employee price... Cry
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2011 at 11:45
Well, congrats too, it's a good purchase IMO. Do you have the stands provided by BW? If yes, are the speakers screwed on the stands, is it possible to fill the stands with sand?

Edit: I screwed all my speakers on its stands, if not, there's much energy lost on bass attacks and forte. A big gain in clarity.

Edited by oliverstoned - September 16 2011 at 11:50
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2011 at 11:47
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Thanks Dean....totally makes sense. But is it then my mind playing tricks on me, when I actually see the sub under a table or next to a setup (like in Olivers case)...that I can tell where the low end is coming from and if I move around it seems to "disappear", the sound that is.
I have my Bose sub tucked behind a sofa at least 4.5m away from the small cube speakers.....I guess our ears can play tricks on us......


IMO a real sub is 38 cm diameter. Below, it just makes "boom boom".
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2011 at 11:50
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Well, congrats too, it's a good purchase IMO. Do you have the stands provided by BW? If yes, are the speakers screwed on the stands, is it possible to fill the stands with sand?
Not yet. A bookshelf will do for now (which I now is not the ideal place to put them on but until next february when I move it will have to do). Then I'll get the stands... Tongue
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2011 at 11:52
OK, my advice is Atacama (Nexus) Stands. There are the best, nice looking, cheap...


Edit: stands provided by speakers manufacturers are often bad, especially on these kind of speakers

Edited by oliverstoned - September 16 2011 at 11:58
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