HIFI Advices please read
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Forum Name: Tech Talk
Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=76165
Printed Date: November 22 2024 at 00:43
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Topic: HIFI Advices please read
Posted By: oliverstoned
Subject: HIFI Advices please read
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 08:46
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I'll not post anything anymore in the Tech talk section to avoid sterile polemics with jealous and/or ignorant people who think that they can make music out of a computer or that CD is superior to vinyl or that 24 bits technology solve all digital's musical issues, etc... So people who want to learn, who want to get real advice about Hifi, portable hifi, any question related to optimization, power cables, filters, any accessory, please PM and i'll be happy to freely share my knowledge. Any ironic message will be simply ignored. BTW, two members from PA heard my hifi gear. Philippe heard my home system two times and was amazed, as well as Alucard who listened to my portable system ( http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=76011&title=portaphile" rel="nofollow - described here ) last time we met for lunch in a restaurant in Paris and he was very impressed and told me that "he'd never think that one can get such sound from a portable set up". Then soon after he bought a Senn HP following my advices. Period. 
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Replies:
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 13:18
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Hello oliver, I live in Paris, would it be possible to experience your system someday? (if you're in Paris that is...) ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 13:29
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Hello,
Actually i'm not in Paris, rather deep into the country, in a remote location... |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 05:19
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For our US fellows, i just found this micro system that would be perfect for tiny rooms and budgets! Just need to add a decent source such as a first-price Nad CD player or a TT Rega P2 or P3 or even an Ipod playing uncompressed files (if nothing better is available), decent cables (such as QED ones, Wireworld) and you have a musical system.
http://www.aloaudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=429" rel="nofollow - http://www.aloaudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=429 |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 07:26
 ------------- What? |
oliverstoned wrote:Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 07:28
So we still can be friends... 
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 09:43
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Nice little system. I have never owned a tube amp, not sure I want to...but I am in the begining stages of looking for a new audio system. I am 47...so I have had my share of audio systems, and now I find myself just simply looking for a high end amp, pre-amp and speakers. My current receiver, Onkyo RC270 with THX and all that video stuff, just has too much stuff I don't use. I simply find myself listening to more of my vinyl in the past year and thought..."hey that's all I need right now!!"
I still use my Zune mp3 player a lot and CDs a lot especially in the car........So I will never abondon that media type.
So....what suggestions on a Amp, Pre-amp and Speakers? My current speakers are a Bose system with the Acoustimass bass module and dual swivel cube speakers.....I really enjoy the sound very much and plus with the cube speakers being that they are about 8" tall I can place them anywhere in the room if I want to change sound quickly....I do have them on pole stands.
Thanks! -------------   
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 09:51
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Not an easy request...i'd change the Bose but i feel that you're not ready to hear that.
Most preamplifiers are very costy! Why do you need a preamp? I'd recommend a Nad CD player paired with a Nad integrated amp and a pair of bookshelf Mission on good stands and a full QED cable line. The cheaper musical system i can think about. Edit: This is not the only option, there are alot of musical cheap CD players (mostly from England) that work such as Rega, Naim, Creek... |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 10:27
Thanks.....never said I needed a new CD player..the one I have now is very good. I've listened to Mission speakers before and I don't care for them much, they lack low end. Maybe I should have mentioned my system is in the lower level of my home which is basically our game/activity room and is about 1100sqft (about 102m²)...so small bookshelfs are not desirable for my setup.
Years back my father had a NAD cassette deck and it was the best equipment he owned, next to the Pioneer reel-reel deck, which I still have BTW....and works excellent.
My search continues...Thanks for the suggestion! -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 12:17
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If you want an affordable, "basic" but musical solid state amplification, you may go for a Nad or Rotel preamp/amp setup.
There are a lot of interesting speakers around...where are you located please? PS: I used to use Mission with a (38 cm) Magna Omega 380 sub. Now using Focal. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 12:32
But in that case my question would be: Who's the other one? Oliver used plural, so I can't be the only one.
 ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 15:25
Located in Seattle, Washington USA........I am also not interested in affordable, if that were the case I would be shopping at BestBuy or Wal-mart......But I also don't like to over spend for over rated equipment (which I think there is tons of that around).
I like good quality equipment that will last....the Bose Acoustimass speakers I have are about 14yrs old and still perform great...That to me is getting my monies worth.
I'm sure I will need a sub with whatever I endup with, the room needs it. There are several audiophile showrooms here in the Seattle area....there are tons of Microsoft and internet millionaires in this area, so cinema rooms are a big deal here.
But I always find they are over priced music boxes with lots of lights and buttons and fancy names......the only quality I see is the box may be made of a nice hardwood..... -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 02:20
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when i say "cheap", it depends on the model.
If you want solid state amplification, something dynamic, muscular, reliable and still musical, deafinetly a Rotel setup preamp choice http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/index.htm?cat=29" rel="nofollow - http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/index.htm?cat=29 power amp choice http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/index.htm?cat=30" rel="nofollow - http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/index.htm?cat=30 Yes, you'll need a sub as well for such a big room; at least a 38cm (15 inches) diameter to obtain real extreme low. Recommended brand: Sunfire http://www.sunfire.com/products.asp" rel="nofollow - http://www.sunfire.com/products.asp |
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 13:10
 I like this attitude.I'm not really into hi-fi as such, maybe because of money issues - and I always prefer to buy vinyl more than equipment. I LOVE old reel-to-reel machines though. I recently bought myself such a piece for almost no money complete with original accessories - from 1964, and it works perfectly!  Anyway - I might be interested in an affordable integrated tube amplifier (max. 2000$) - can you recommend any? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 01:40
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^ Which attitude is that - the one of trying to bully dissenters into keeping out of the threads? ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 01:58
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Whoever mentioned Bose in a hifi thread... Fail ------------- 
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 02:36
A good tapedeck or reel-to-reel is a wonderful source, like a big tuner or of course, a good vinyl deck. As you're located in europa, the answer to your question is easy: Prima Luna. The good news is that it's less than 2000€! It let you a good amount of money for optimization (cables, cancelling vibration devices, etc...) and/or maybe a cheap musical CD player (a second hand Nad, Rega or Naim is between 150 and 500€). Not only Prima luna is affordable, well designed, highly musical and neutral but it also features a unique and very convenient auto-bias system which automatically set your tubes (otherwise it has to be done manually each time you replace a tube). Here's a model suited to your needs: http://www.primaluna.nl/products_subpage1a2.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.primaluna.nl/products_subpage1a2.htm If you use it alone, without solid state power amplification for low end (bi amplification), you have to pair it with speakers with a minimum of 90db of sensitivity. This amp is "only" 40W, but 40W tubes easily equals 70 to 80 solid state Watts. I precise that i'm myself the happy owner of a Prima Luna Prologue Four (stereo power amp that i use with a passive Rotel Michi preamp, the whole help by a Sub Magna Omega 380). I warmly recommend this brand, along with "Jolida" (extremely musical). You can also consider "Cayin" in the same league but it's a little more expensive and slightly less neutral but still very musical. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 09:30
Me....is there a problem? Almost 20yrs ago it was a lot of money for me and still are some of the best sounding speakers I ever owned...I will say ONLY for vinyl, there is a big difference with my digital on my Bose.
Now that I make tons more money I am looking for a new system.......But in noway am I into throwing my good hard earned money away. -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 09:59
| If you have plenty of money, sell back the Bose and go for an ambitious system with bi amplification (tubes in the highs, solid state in the low + sub (so, almost tri-amp)). Almost nobody will advice that, but believe me or not, this is the royal way, because tubes are incredible in the mid/highs and highs but slightly round in the extreme low. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 10:14
Like I said before I have never owned a tube amp product.....it is interesting to me and I plan to investigate, certainly the claims I have always read are its the best sound reproduction around.
And I would not sell anything back that I like..makes no sense.......I plan to give them to one of my sons, the size fits their rooms well....once I find new speakers. -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 12:22
| OK...anyway i don't consider a musical system without tubes in the highs or full tubes...a big system with only solid state amplification is a joke. Even the best solid state sound cold, electronic in the mid/highs. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 12:49
Valves/tubes are great, they are also wonderfully cool to own and look at.
MosFETS are great, and have remarkably similar characteristics to valves/tubes, but are not as wonderfully cool to own or look at.
What gives valved/tubed systems their colouration is the output matching transformer, not the bottle. If you like that warm harmonic distortion on your music (and most of us do) then go for it.
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 13:26
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It's not about look at all...
I talk about empiric things that everybody who comes at home (or at some frien's home as well) can experience; there's no need for gold-plated ears. My system "pushes walls", there's no distorsion at all, we feel at the heart of the sound and the lows are incredible, the highs and extreme sing incredibly, you rediscover any disc. You'd be happy to hear how CD works (it's possible)but it's because it's Tube in the mid/highs and that the system is over optimized at all levels... OK MOS FET are better on the paper. But a great one billion solid-state system always sound cold, flat, harsh in the mid-highs compared to Tube. It's something that every honest people may certify. So this means that figures, measurements don't reflect the result, the musicality of any device. this is something that has to be experienced, that's all i can say. Tube amps mesure less good than solidstate but are 100X times more musical in the mid highs/highs/extreme high which is spectum part to which we're the most "sensible" (in french) However, solid state is unbeatable for low/extreme low. But if you have to have only one integrated amp, it must be tube... and then you can add a good sub for low and extreme low. That's why the logic is to perform bi amplification. And it works. You can even do "tri amplification" adding a sub for extreme low. That's the royal way, including a preamp and a good source. PS: yes the output transformer is very important in the sound, so is power in general so that's why we audiophiles, work on it |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 13:36
Wasn't that a place or thing in Star Wars??
(sorry my bad...  )-------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 13:44
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I tell everybody all i know....Jolida 302 is a fantastic amp
(from USA) that costs around 1000 dollars and compare to the best tube amps and so anything else... An absolute reference Of course you can use two using it as mono block, one for each canal |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 14:01
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You'll get no argument from me Oliver. I love valves (sorry, dropping the americanism of "tubes" now), I learnt my electronics using valves and even built a valve sound-to-light unit back in the 70s (using thyratrons) to go with my valve pre-amp, valve power-amp, valve power supply and valve tuner. What we didn't like about solid-state amps back then was their brightness - unfortunately that brightness was how things should have sounded, that was what flat, linear, undistorted response sounded like and we didn't like it - it didn't "fit" with the harshly reflective and acoustically dynamic and active environment that we listen to music in. This effect occurred again when we went from vinyl to CD, again we got to hear what flat, linear, undistorted response sounded like and we didn't like it. In human-survival terms those higher than normal speech frequencies mean "danger", "flee", "hide", that's why our ears are tuned to them and why we don't like them. CD feeding into solid-state is as near perfect transparent reproduction as it is possible to get electrically - the problem now is converting that perfect electrical energy into acoustic energy, and there the transducers (ie loudspeakers or headphones) and the environment (room or ear-holes) have a huge impact and are the weak link in any system. It is impossible to replicate the recording environment in a living room with cones of paper and coils of wire.
What you get with valves and vinyl is that colouration in the mids and tops that agrees with our ears, not what is flat, linear and distortion free. This cannot be replicated with filters, (though it can be modeled in DSP to some extent), to get that sound you have to use those components.
/edit: Distortion is anything in the acoustic signal that the record's producer/sound-engineer did not put in the original recording. I'm not referring to the nasty horrible stuff like crossover distortion, overdrive or clipping - that is avoidable and inexcusable in any system, but the subtle and the "nice" that even the best system's add. If you do anything to the signal you have introduced distortion - applying filtering is distortion, any non-linear component in the system is distortion, mismatched cables are distortion, valves and transformers introduce distortion - they cannot help it - it's physics... If you can tell the difference between two systems then that difference is distortion - the question then is not which system is providing the distortion when compared to the original source (answer = both) , but which distortion do you prefer. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 15:08
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^ Interesting......make an arguement for a non-tube setup, which is ok as they are pricey. Jolida I see only sold thru dealers, so I pay a pretty good markup probably...upwards of 50% is my guess, is it worth it?
I don't listen to FM anymore, so that is why I am thinking just go the amp/integrated amp road. Plus my Zune HD has HD FM so I can listen thru that if I need to.
I have not seen mention speakers of choice?? -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 16:29
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I never recommend anything to anyone (sorry) - with electronics as long as you are buying quality brands you will be getting quality product - what you are paying for is build standard not performance. Oliver recommended a NAD integrated amp - it's great - I've had one (a 3020A) for 30 years as my "2nd system" (ie in the dining room), it is powered-up 24/7 and has never gone wrong - even the level control is crackle-free, but to be honest, anything in that price range will sound and perform much the same.
Speakers are personal, recommendations only go so far- you need to pick something you like and what fits your room.
All can argue is don't buy on price-tickets, buy with your ears - go to a good HiFi retailer with a good listening/demo room and have a listen - you cannot buy online or on the recommendation of someone else unless you've heard the set-up yourself. Take along your favourite albums, something you know every note and nuance so you can compare it to you existing equipment - the albums they provide will sound great, but if you don't know them you won't be able to tell anything by listening.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 16:49
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^ Thanks Dean.......I know NAD is good stuff...looking into that, although I see their int amps do not have a phono input, at least the ones I looked at.
Speakers I totally agree on....I have never bought speakers online, I always listen at the store with my fav mix CD.....and I always buy what my ears tell me sound the best.
I appreciate both your guys input......regards! -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 17:12
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^ NAD make a pretty good external Phono stage, but it is external. (then few amps have phono stage now-a-days) ------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 01:38
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The Nad phono stage is not TOO bad but that's far from being a good one.
But that's another story. Nad is what i recommend for teh cheaper possible setup because it's very musical for integrated solid state, a warm sound closer to the real live thing than many more expensive solid states. But it's still light years away from tube in the mid/highs. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 01:41
See, you did't consider that in his threads, Oliver get's to decide what's polemic.  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 02:16
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"What you get with valves and vinyl is that colouration in the mids and tops that agrees with our ears, not what is flat, linear and distortion free."
Yes and when you add great solid state in the low you reach musical bliss! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 03:56
MOSFETS (Metal Oxide Silicon Field Effect Transistor) and Bipolar Transistor are not the same, and while both are called "solid-state" it is unfair to tar both with the same brush.
MOSFETS work in a similar way to valves and have very similar transfer characteristics, (the relationship from input signal to output signal) - on the negative side what MOSFETS don't have is an nice glass bottle and a nice glowing heater, but on the plus side they don't need a nasty 400V high-tension supply or nasty matching transformers to drive a speaker. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 04:04
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^^ so by "yes" you mean that tube amps aren't really audiophile? Because last time I checked, audiophile means reproducing the original recording as accurately as possible.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 05:07
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Yes of course, there are different kinds of solid state, i used to have
a pure Class A headphone amp. The sound was excellent, very close to tube...but not as good. IN THE LOW and EXTREME LOW HOWEVER, SOLID STATE IS UNBEATABLE. BUT THE FIRST PRIORITY (when you don't have an unlimited budget)IS TO HAVE GREAT HIGHS & MID HIGHS. A PURE "CLASS A" AMP FOR A HOME SYSTEM WILL COSTS at least 4 TIMES MORE THAN TUBE AND IS TWO TIMES LESS GOOD IN THE HIGHS THAN TUBE. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 06:30
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I'd like to add that there are solid state which sound "colored" as well.
And coloration and musicality are two very different notions. We audiophiles are looking for the most neutral devices so we don't have to compensate this by that. But it has to be musical as well. On another hand, some devices are lighlty colored but still highly desirable as they're extremely musical. Like the legendary tube tuner Marantz 10B which is the absolute best tuner ever because there's no other tuner doing so sweet music. For example teh tuner Goldmund Mimesis IV (solid state) goes further on hifi criterias (it's the Ferrari of tuner) and it's one of the very best sources on earth (and it costed 10 000 euros when first released) but it's not as musical as the Marantz. All that to say that figures don't tell much, if nothing about the result. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 06:42
 You are using phrases like "as good" and "less good" as quantifable empiric measures, which they are most certainly not. You are even giving the impression that "Class A" is a measure of worth, which is it is not. ------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 08:13
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"as good" or "less good" is like the salt is salty and the sugar is sugaree. Everybody agrees on that. It's empiric indeed. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 08:34
------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 09:56
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The "saltiness" of salt is empiric as well. Of course when i say a tube is two or four times better than class A transistor, it's an aproximation, like two times more salty. It can't be measured because we don't have the apropriate tools/criterias for that. You can quantify dynamic, signal/noise ratio but i'll tell almost nothing if nothing at all about the ability of a given device to "make music". |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 10:07
This is getting pointless and silly. If you use cardinal numbers as a measure of something then you have quantified it - if you say a Class A valve amplifier is two or four times better than a Class A transistor amplifier then you have placed quantified measures on that. Empiric means "by observation or experiment" as opposed to "by calculation or theory" - using theory you can predict the gain and bandwidth of the class A amplifier, with extremely careful modelling you could predict other factors about it - or you can empirically measure them. No matter how well to calculate or predict something, you can only prove it with empirical measurement. Goodness is not an empirical measurment.
The information you are talking about cannot be measured or predicted - they are feelings, perceptions and preferances, and those cannot be quantified. You cannot say a valve amplifier is two times better than, or twice as good as, a transistor amplifier, it is complete nonsense. ------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 11:30
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To give you an image, it's like saying PF is two times better than
Britney Spears... |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 11:52
All these descriptions of personal feelings or choice, kinda feels like I am reading a customer review, which is fine, but oliver you quote a lot of different manufactures of amps, tube/valve, HP amps.....Have you actually owned all these different name brands or are you a hi-fi equipment seller, distributor? I just wonder cause I have never heard a tube amp in person nor met anyone who had one, so I only have what I read to go by.
I hope to one day hear one in action.....I doubt I will buy one as they are sold thru 2-step online stores and I don't fancy paying US$5,000.00 for a tube amp.
What Dean describes to me in several posts makes sense to seriously look at non valve amps......a glowing glass bottle is pretty but will I really hear the difference between a US$3,000 amp by Jolida and a US$1,000 amp by NAD?
My search continues....Thanks gentleman! -------------
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:26
Which is just about as silly and really drives Dean's point home. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:26
That is meaningless, erroneous and in every respect misleading. If you prefer PF to Britney then you can say you say you like them better, but you cannot say they are better by any countable units of betterness. You cannot say that valve amplifier is twice as good as a transistor amplifier, that is nonsense. However, you can say you prefer valve amplifiers or you like them better - that is personal preference and nothing that you can empirically quantify to justify to another audiophile, hi-fi freak or anyone who is just mildly interested in audio equipment. It's like when you use "musical" as an adjective - what do you actually mean by that? If a set of interconnects or an amp is more "musical" in the mids and highs what does that mean exactly, in terms that everyone here can understand? Does that mean that if I play something discordant and dissonant like Faust or Stockhausen it will now sound more lyrical and melodic like Barclay James Harvest? No- of course it doesn't. So what does it mean?  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:29
Chances are that if you really spend the $3,000 on the Jolida amp, it might end up sounding just about 3 times better than the $1,000 amp ... subjectively. It doesn't have to be that way though - I'm listening to music on my 80 EUR Logitech X-530 all the time, and I'm never thinking "OMG this sounds 12 times worse than a 1,000 EUR amp and speakers". Because it doesn't. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:45
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^ ... ohhh come on now yes it does........ -------------
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Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:52
but true------------- 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:58
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I bought a cheap "hong kong" valve amp from ebay (I've just noticed it is now three times more than I paid for it a year ago) with the idea of tweeking it to make it sound better (the circuit is based on a 50 year old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullard_5-10" rel="nofollow - Mullard design) - the modern Chinese version it looks terrible, but despite the cheap components, rubbish build quality and indifferent output transformers, it sounds quite nice and I haven't felt the need to modify it yet. It's spec'd at 15W per channel, but that's optimistic to say the least - the EL84s in the config used (AB1 push-pull) are 10W at best - I use it as my PC amp to drive a pair of small Kef speakers I picked up cheap. It's fun, it works, but it isn't HiFi. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 13:49
Of course it can work both ways ... the fact that I bought the 80 EUR gear means that I could be biased towards it, thinking that it sounds better than it actually does. Well, let's put it this way: I know that my 80 EUR system sounds worse than a big hi-fi system. But I also have quite some experience with other low-cost systems, and I can switch back and forth between that and the hi-fi I have in the room, then I can listen to something on the hi-fi with AKG headphones. When I do that, I realize that these 80 EUR speakers sound much, much better than you would guess by looking at the price tag. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000JJM8XE" rel="nofollow - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000JJM8XE The point of posting this in an audiophile/hi-fi thread is that too many people are being duped into thinking that they need to spend 1,000+ EUR/USD in order to get a good listening experience. And when they get an expensive system, they start to fancy even more expensive systems ... a vicious circle indeed. IMO the best strategy is to look for gear that offers excellent quality at an affordable price. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 14:41
^ Exactly!!! 
So those of you trashing me for owning a Bose speaker system...bite me! My ears tell me they sound great and they still do after almost 20yrs. That's why I need to find a store where I can go hear a NAD amp or same type quality before I plop down $1000, knowing that I also want new speakers.........
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Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: March 03 2011 at 15:08
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My Humble system for not to much money and sounds great does what i need and that's play music !! http://www.rega.co.uk/html/p2.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.rega.co.uk/html/p2.htm http://www.amazon.com/Denon-DRA-397-Source-Receiver-Audiophile/dp/B000HD5FWI" rel="nofollow - http://www.amazon.com/Denon-DRA-397-Source-Receiver-Audiophile/dp/B000HD5FWI http://www.celestion.com/products/fseries/f30.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.celestion.com/products/fseries/f30.html http://www.celestion.com/products/fseries/f28.html" rel="nofollow - http://nadelectronics.com/products/cd-players/C-545BEE-CD-Player" rel="nofollow - http://nadelectronics.com/products/cd-players/C-545BEE-CD-Player There Really is no need to spend large amounts of money to get a good sound for your music, unless of course you got lot's Money to spare then who wouldn't . oh edit , the Nad i was lucky and got in a sale for Half Price otherwise don't think i would be paying that much Money for a Cd Player , shore there cheaper alternatives out there do just a good job. -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 03:51
| Of course, some may prefer the taste of cardboard-box first price wine over a grand cru. Each one to his taste! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 04:39
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Audio equipment is now likened to fermented grape juice  since both are laced with hyperbole and superlatives I guess it holds some value. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 06:06
I Have listen to hi fi which cost 5 times more than my humble little system and the difference is very slight if any at all to my ears , and i prefer a nice Real Ale myself  -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 06:44
Price means nothing at all. Very few systems are working because very few know how to make a system work. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 06:46
You prefer a comparison with coca cola or another soda of your choice? Maybe it'll speak to you better? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 06:59
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Building a good sytem is both simple and complicated.
First you have to have only musical components which is not that simple knowing the profusion of brands but i'm here to help for that. Then you have to optimize your system on three levels: - A minimum of quality cables (interconnect and speakers cable's, in biwire mode or double cable if possible). - Work on power: rspect power phase, installation of dedicated power lines, at least the CD (if CD there is)must be separated from the rest. Good power cables are needed as we live in very polluted places (waves). The next step is to add good power filters (not easy to find, but what an improvment). - Work on vibration control: quality furniture, accessories to place under the components which affect dramatically the device's performance. Stands or furniture filled with sand, weights on subwoofers... It's just a rough idea of the improvments necessary to make a system work a minimum and that's why it's very rare to hear something making music. But it exists and it's not at all a matter of price. Nothing is easy |
Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 07:11
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I dont listen to HI FI i listen to Music
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 07:22
Do you have any scientific evidence that any of that is truly *required* in order to have a great listening experience? ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 08:15
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No since measures don't reflect that. But all people that listened
to my system agree that it's the best that they have ever heard I've had a look at your blog...if you want to loose weight, you have to follow the blood group diet, one of the only diet which works and it's purely scientific (very interesting theory). At least, give it a try for one month. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 09:22
But, no. All such comparisons, when they are not being elitist and insulting, are stupid and meaningless. Someone could drink exclusively Château Mouton-Rothschild, drive a Bugatti Veyron, and prefer Pepsi over Coke and still think a Phillips music centre is the height of perfection in audio reproduction - yet sure as eggs is eggs such a person would buy a Clearaudio Statement Turntable to play his vinyl copy of Love Over Gold because it looks good in his penthouse flat and for no other reason.
I know you are trying to say that people's tastes are different, but you are saying it in such a way to imply that there is good taste and bad, and that is ego-flattering eliteism.
If you want to claim that all valve amps are two times better than all solid-state amps then form a controlled and valid comparison under blind conditions that produces tangible results and prove it. Compare a Separo se88i with a Krell S-300i and prove it, or compare a NAD with a Jolida if you prefer, or any combination thereof, but back the statement up with actual comparisons, not glib generalisations.
------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 10:01
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Krell is over rated...Mark Levinson's way better I'd not even compare tube and solid state, i already know the result. I'd compare this Bryston solid state power amp Vs this other one for low and so on with tube |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 10:19
What is this? I have asked before and got no answer.
Validity? Cables carry the information from source to destination - the matching of source and destination is far more important than the cables that connect them - past a certain level of screening and build quality you enter into the realm of dimminshing returns. At audio frequencies and currents there is no differenece between various conductors used in audio interconnects. Quality cables are better than the $5 cables from Amazon, but only from the quality of the connectors themselves and not from the cables used.
Bi-wire is not an inter-connection method but a method of driving speakers from an external crossover/power amps (bi-amp) - if the crossovers are contained in the speakers and the amp is common then the improvement is psychosomatic.
What do you mean by power phase?
All hi-fi manufacturers spend as much on the design and build of their power supplies as they do on the audio-path circuits - they are designed to convert 50Hz mains into the various DC supplies required by the electronics and include all the filtering amd RF suppresion that is needed to ensure a clean DC supply.
What are the differences between good power cables to standard power cables precisely? Since this, on a global manufacturing scale, is an extremely simple change for all manufacturers to make why don't they all supply them as standard?
Why should the CD be powered seperately and how do you mean seperately? Run an extension cable from your neighbour's house?
This I agree on (to a degree). Acoustic isolation is easily achieved in speakers and turntables, however acoustic pick-up in solid-state and digital equipment is to all intents and purposes impossible so no point in isolating those for any reason other than it makes you happy.
Says you. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 10:30
I'm sure that your system sounds very, very good - that was never the issue.
Wow. First of all, I'm glad you checked out my blog. As far as the blood group diet is concerned, I think it's completely unscientific. Sure, they try to sell it as scientific, but consider this simple line of thought: The blood group diet is based on the assumption that the different blood groups evolved in the not so distant past when our ancestors shifted from a meat based diet to a plant based diet - typically 10,000 years BCE is mentioned as the time when agriculture was "invented". According to the blood group diet, people with older blood groups do better on high meat diets, while people with younger blood groups do better on high plant diets. So far so good - but in fact blood groups are *much* older than that. We're talking about millions of years, not tens of thousands of years. Here's some more in depth info: http://www.skepdic.com/bloodtypediet.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.skepdic.com/bloodtypediet.html An excerpt: Peter D'Adamo's reasoning is based on speculative inferences from such "facts" as that type O is the oldest blood type. It isn't. A is the oldest blood type. Studies in humans, chimpanzees, and bonobos show that alleles coding for blood type A are the most ancient version of the ABO blood group. This trait was shared prior to the evolutionary split between chimpanzees and hominids five to six million years ago. B blood type split from A about 3.5 million years ago and O blood type split from A about 2.5 million years ago. From this error regarding the age of type O, D'Adamo reasons that people with type O blood should eat the kind of diet the earliest humans ate: one rich in fat and protein. "Group A [D'Adamo erroneously claims] is the second oldest blood group, appearing around 25,000 - 15,000 B.C., when larger human settlements first appeared as farming developed." http://www.blood.co.uk/visually_impaired/vi_world_blood.html" rel="nofollow - * From this "fact," D'Adamo infers that people with type A blood should eat their veggies. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 10:30
I don't know, I've not heard either to have an opinion either way.
So you have compared every tube system with every solid-state system and know this for sure. Cool
Why? ------------- What? |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 10:43
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I would say that all of us feel we are listening to music on our "hi-fi" system, by that I mean if we have a simple setup like a receiver, CD player and maybe a turntable and good speakers. From there is where the discussions come from on quality, price, name brand, specs... and so on. oliverstoned I know that you wanted to only discuss your definition of "hi-fi" on this thread but I doubt the majority of us have such a system.....Although I appreciate your intent, and it has made me look differently at what I might want to purchase, I just don't think most here will understand what you might be talking about.As a kid I was fascinated with HIFI, I used to subscribe to High Fidelity magazine and would dream of the equipment I saw in the magazine.....One day making enough money to own some of that stuff!!
Well...marriage, kids, cars, mortgage...food seemed to get in the way of me getting my "dream system". I still enjoy a good sounding system, but with age I have come to understand the value of MY money.
Maybe a valve amp is 10x better than solid state.......but at 10x the price I doubt I will ever plug one of those babies into my power strip at home. If I had nothing else to do with about US$15,000, I probably would do it, but it would end up being a cinema room so the whole family and friends could enjoy the setup.
I have a lot of vinyl, CDs, cassettes and even reel-reel tapes (I have a Pioneer RT909)......so a lot of media I need to reproduce at a value that makes sense for me....regardless if it is a bottle of US$6 red wine or a US$200 bottle of Chateau blah-blah..........if it sounds good to my ears then I have a good HIFI system.
Maybe I am partially off base here but my ears are the best measurement, more so than a page full of specs.....What does make sense to me is when someone like Dean explains partially what happens underneath the hood of these components........
What I have come away with is that I need to invest some money in cables.....I do believe the standard cables that came with my components and speakers can be improved on.
Have a good weekend !! -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 11:04
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The day the weight of interconnects hanging off the back of my NAD 6125 cassette deck caused it to tip over I realised I'd probably gone a little too far (they cost more than the deck too). Seriosuly, if all you have is the thin cables and little plastic RCA plugs that came with your system then spending $20 on a pair of interconnects like QED or Monster and you won't be disapointed. You can spend more (much more) but with little to compare them too you'll be hard pushed to justify them.------------- What? |
Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 11:26
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i have come across people before who are in to listening to the equipment more than music , i always found that rather amusing .
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 12:13
^ Especially listening to good looking equipment. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 12:30
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This is a pretty turntable.........needledoctor.com US$150,000.00...that's all  -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 13:44
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But it could sound utterly dreadful and for $150K you wouldn't need that much encouragement to point out the emperor's new clothes, unless you were stood next to the proud owner of course... "Yes, it sounds magnificent your highness, the best I've ever heard, the finest in all the land."
However, personally I think it looks hideous - I'm sure the mechanics are perfection and the tracking of the tangential tone-arm trimmed to micrometer precision, I would wager the signal path is as pristine as it is physically possible to get - but that styling is butt-ugly... ------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 05 2011 at 08:56
QED yes, but not Monster, nor Audioquest. |
Posted By: Apsalar
Date Posted: March 07 2011 at 02:48
Great to hear you went for the Prima Luna :) From memory this is a new acquisition since we last spoke (I used to post under Black Velvet here, I've got the prologue one myself). Have you done much playing around with different types of valves, besides the stock ones which came with it? (Also do you know what company makes the stock ones?) Just recently two of my 12AX7's and one 12AU7 blew, so in the interim a friend gave me some Golden Dragons to keep me in business till I decide what I want to replace them with. Been thinking maybe some Electro-Harmonix, but I'm not so knowledgeable about brands, quality et cetera. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 07 2011 at 07:28
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Hello Black velevet! I'm very happy to hear from you!
Yes we both are happy Prima luna owners now! To reply you about valves, i'm playing a lot these days with New Old Stock valves dating from the late 50's to late 70's from the following brands: Raytheon (excellent), Brimard (very close to Mullard), Dumont (very very good), RCA, General electric, Siemens, Mazda, Philips ECG (all good as well); all in 12AX7 or 12AU7. As you probably know, NOS EL34 are very expensive, that's why i'm still on classic Electro Harmonix which are quite good fortunatly. To sum up, the difference between these NOS valves and the « basic » Electro harmonix and/or Prima luna stock one is day and night IF your sytem’s transparent enough. You also may add (cheap) silicon rings (two per tube), and it's a big improvment, whatever the tube BTW. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 09 2011 at 02:49
I forgot an excellent subwoofer brand: Velodyne http://www.velodyne.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.velodyne.com/ |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 02:50
 |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 03:07
| Is it yours? |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 03:24
No ... But these are:  Looking to order the Little Dot 1+ later today.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 03:36
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The Little Dot uses a Bipolar Operational Amplifier chip to do all the voltage amplification and bipolar transistors in Class B configuration to do the power drive to the headphones... the valves (tubes) are pentodes in Class A but driving into resistive loads (no matching transformer) so won't display the odd harmonic colouration so loved by Oliver, I guess they will tell you the power is on. Also the mains rectification is done on the same circuit board as the amplifer, which cannot help.
However, if you've heard one and like it, all this is irrelevant.
------------- What? |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 03:48
| If you've got a better match for a SR325i at that price then I'm all ears. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 03:57
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^ no, just pointing out you shouldn't buy it just for the valves, all the hard work is done by transistors, (and that's not a bad thing of course), but it is a hybrid and not a valve amp unlike the Little Dot II and Little Dot III. ------------- What? |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 04:13
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Right, but the unlike the 2/3, the 1+ is tailored more towards low impedance headphones, which is what the 325's are (32ohms). I just need to smooth out the harshness and tame the brightness a bit and I'm all set.
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 04:19
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Sonically, if it sounds more "solid state", the match with the Grado may be nice (Grado sounds very warm and analogic).
But i somehow agree with Dean...if this hybrid doesn't sound valve but with all the troubles that come with valves...(replacment, etc...), is it really worth? Well, what's your goal actually? Are you looking for an amp for indoor listening? If it's the case, the Triad audio Lisa III should be considered as well. http://www.triadaudio.net/Triad_Audio/Home.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.triadaudio.net/Triad_Audio/Home.html If you want something really portable as well, then it's RSA Mustang P51 or Headamp Pico, but of course it has to be powerful enough for the choosed pair of HP. |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 15:26
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They're open cans so indoor. Supposedly the I+ synergizes well with Grados and at the low price point of the amp I don't think tube replacement will be too much of an issue. Although I've been searching high and low for the discontinued Gilmore Lite, which is my first choice.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 16:59
I forgot an excellent subwoofer brand: Velodyne http://www.velodyne.com/%5b/QUOTE" rel="nofollow - http://www.velodyne.com/[/QUOTE ] Yes...I have been looking at a 10" model DQR10 or something like that.........Assuming I go with a bookshelf model speaker......I have been looking at a Klipsch bookshelf, but I need to find one local to go and have a listen first.
Still looking....Thanks -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 13:00
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Here's my current system 
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 13:21
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^ That's pretty cool stuff!! Thanks for sharing the picture.... -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 13:24
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You're welcome, sorry for the avrage quality pic and not having done the dust before!
The Magnat omega 380 sub is the big dark stuff behind the left speaker |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 13:37
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My setup right now is 2.1 only. It includes a Marantz receiver with a marantz cd player, v-can headphone amp, ath-w5000 headphones, 2 definitive technology proMonitor 800 speakers and a Definitive technology pro 800 sub. I'm going to replace the two speakers for a pair of Bowers&Wilkins 685s and leave the little ones for when I build my home theater set. This one is mostly for music. -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 13:40
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Electronics from bottom to top:
- Valve power amp Prima luna Prologue 4 - Passive preamp Rotel Michi - D/A converter Goldmund Mimesis 14 - (pure) CD transport Sonic Frontiers SFT-1 |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 13:40
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Yes I know.....I have decided not to get a sub for my system.....I am still shopping for new speakers. Currently looking at B&W CM1, they have amazing bass response, EPOS and Klipsch all bookshelf models. The problem is not having a store that carries stuff you can audition. Also looking at the NAD C356BEE integrated amp. My system is old I have an Onkyo Integra TX-870 receiver (20yr old), Sony CDP302 CD deck (25yr old), ADC SS100SL EQ (20yr old), Audio Technica AT-LP120 Direct Drive Turntable (1yr old), Bose Acoustimass speakers (20yr old).....Everything works fine, but now that my kids are grown and we are not spending all our available cash on them....I am looking for new equipment. I am kinda glad I waited since technology has improved so much in the past 10yrs....
 -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 13:54
Among your electronics, the weakest part is the marantz amp |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 13:57
The Nad amp and the BW speakers are good musical choices, you'd get a second hand Nad CD (any model, some are for sale at less than 100 dollars) because the Sony will not do justice to your (future) new gear. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 14:35
)-------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 14:39
| Of course. Another option is to gather all in on system. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 14:45
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Ohh I agree on the CD player, I forgot to mention I will replace that one too.....I was looking at a NAD or REGA CD player, there are some stores in Seattle that have pretty good used equipment.
....I am 100% a 2.0 channel person, always have been. The older equipment I will give to my kids for their Xbox room so they can use it for gaming audio. -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 14:52
| Rega Yes and for rock lover a Naim CD5 is very interesting |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 16:11
Your system appears to lack one vital component Oliver.  ------------- What? |