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JJLehto 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Points: 34550
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 Posted: June 22 2011 at 23:30 |
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Oh cheesiness?
Please, any fan of any metal needs to accept the genre is cheesy and silly. Things are so much better.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 23:42 |
 JJLehto wrote:
Oh cheesiness?
Please, any fan of any metal needs to accept the genre is cheesy and silly. Things are so much better.
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By cheesiness is meant horrible synths and vocal tendencies that sometimes take more after Mariah Carey than Ronnie James Dio. I agree that metal per se can be cheesy and over the top but I'd also agree with those who say something like Exodus is so over the top it's hilarious and fun but I don't find prog metal cheesiness that much fun because they are trying so hard to be dead serious and intellectual. No prejudice here by the way, I like ACT a lot so I am pretty consistent that way.
Anyway, on topic, I like a lot of 'straight-up' metal and some prog metal. I don't generally find the subtlety of great prog rock in prog metal, the latter's complexity/technicality is all in your face and blatant. I want to be lulled into deception and led onto the technicalities...but prog metal's Mr.Obvious approach negates such an element of discovery. Still, stuff like Moore-era Dream Theater or Pain of Salvation can be really good, even great.
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JJLehto
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Points: 34550
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 23:52 |
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Well depends how you look at it. I've heard that "oh god (insert prog metal band) is soooo cheesy I cant even listen to them" but then they go to listen to thrash/death/black/traditional metal. It's all pretty ridiculous.
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rogerthat
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 00:03 |
I find that pretty understandable, even if not logical, perhaps. Synth is the sworn enemy of hard rock/heavy metal fans, so it's not surprising at all to me that they'd dislike archetypal prog metal. People generally like metal more for the energy and aggression and not so much for great composition (even if they might claim that is the case). Compare Iron Maiden's performance of Hallowed...in the famous Hammersmith 1982 show with Dream Theater's of the same song and you can see the latter feels a lot more calculated and lot less energetic. Ok, maybe you don't see it that way, but even I do and a lot of people who like 'pure' metal more would too.Yeah, sure, Adrian Smith can't do the things Petrucci can but a lot of people don't care about that so much.
It is not even why I listen to prog rock, let alone metal. I love Fripp's compositional facility and imagination, I don't care how technically amazing or not he is and who all can play better. As somebody else said on this thread , there's nothing particularly unique in that sense about what a lot of prog metal offers. It's a kind of smart-metal niche but a) I don't necessarily think it's that much smarter all the time and b) if I like dumb metal as it is, I don't particularly need the smart-niche.
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 00:07 |
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I love synthesizers.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 00:12 |
The T wrote:
I love synthesizers. |
But you are only speaking for yourself and it doesn't make the general tendency hard to believe. It should not be hard to believe especially if Queen used to proudly claim at a certain point in their career that they had no synthesizers. Speaking for MYSELF, I like synths but I don't like the tones Rudess, for one, uses at all and a lot of other prog metal keyboardists use similar tones. Basically that COB like synth-guitar effect. ACT use it to create an interesting chordal layer that somehow does not obstruct the metal riffage in their songs and I love that.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Points: 34550
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 00:18 |
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Oh yeah, this is of course all my opinion.
I used to be a straight up metal head. If it had a moment of not heavy I tossed it to the side. Metal synths would sicken me. I do get it, metal is supposed to pummel and beat you. There's prog rock for for the "artsy" stuff.
Thankfully I realized such separation was silly and the best metal was often that which could pummel you and take some more attentive listening!
Edited by JJLehto - June 23 2011 at 00:19
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 00:31 |
JJLehto wrote:
Thankfully I realized such separation was silly and the best metal was often that which could pummel you and take some more attentive listening!
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But I don't even have to listen very attentively...for what, in any case? I would not have to pay much attention to the music to know the musicians are very accomplished but the aspects I am more interested in are usually conspicuous by their absence.The way prog metal bands pace their songs for instance is unimaginative and does not achieve much in terms of building drama. Prog metal is also very closely tied into the styles of metal genres so even the scene is set beforehand. So there is not much transformation of the soundscape, it is essentially heavy, heavy and more of heavy. Leaving metal aside, without these things, I would not be very interested in much ambitious music of lengths running into 15 minutes thereabouts. At least the stuff that's composed, improvisation is a different kettle of fish. I don't know if that's what people who like complex music generally feel but certainly the fact that it's complex is not reason enough for me to pay attention to it. I'd readily grant that there are some prog rock bands who don't achieve this very well too and yes, I am not much interested in them either...only in the ones that do.
And there was artsy metal long before what is known as prog metal came into being - Black Sabbath's string of albums from Vol 4 to Sabotage. You had Iommi criss-crossing genres adventurously, you had Wakeman contributing synths and it was a whole lot of fun and at the same time a lot more menacing than DT have ever been, at least in my reading. So, there is a way to mix the art with metal, I did not say there SHOULD be a separation. But for that, metal musicians will have to start letting go of 80s tonality. It is just one humungous gigantic layer of homogenous heaviness (however appealing the sound of a bone crushing 80s metal riff may be), coming in the way of contrast and differentiation. By the way, even King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Genesis from time to time found ways of accomodating metal as it was then into prog. But their scope was vast and wide and they wisely did not restrict themselves to metal, it was just one of many diverse influences they blended in ways uniquely their own.
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someone_else
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 02:37 |
I am neither a fan nor a hater. In general I prefer Prog Metal as long as it does not come too close to death metal (that's why I don't tend to explore Tech/Extreme Prog Metal MP3 samples on PA).
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DavetheSlave
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Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 04:32 |
For me it's kind of hard to explain. I mentioned in a previous post that the music that I love comes from a music category term that was around before prog and metal were general categories - that term was "underground music".
Yes, Genesis, Black Sabbath, Budgie, Gravy Train, ELP etc were all to be found in the record shops in the "Underground" section.
Today Dream Theater and Pain of Salvation are bands that are "underground" bands, to my mind, and not metal bands although they do encorporate a lot of metal elements in their music.
I remember that later in the record shops I could find a popular section, an underground section and then along came a metal section which housed the forerunners of the thrash scene.
Underground as a term was dropped and relating to category Rock, Metal, Popular became the categories of note.
I don't believe that Dream Theater, POS, Queensryche are metal bands and in my own head I keep them lumped under progressive rock.
I loved Black Sabbath, Budgie, Uriah Heep but I could never handle and hated bands like Guns n Roses, Metallica, Motley Crue etc. Truth be told I always felt that the Dream Theaters, Rush's, POS's fitted more with the old Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath, Yes, Genesis mould than they do with Metal especially if I look at a lot of metal music out there which I really don't like at all (especially the grunting, groaning, harsh vocal type unless that is done in limitation as an extention of the music and mood.)
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Mr ProgFreak
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Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 5195
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 04:42 |
someone_else wrote:
I am neither a fan nor a hater. In general I prefer Prog Metal as long as it does not come too close to death metal (that's why I don't tend to explore Tech/Extreme Prog Metal MP3 samples on PA).
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You should still listen to such samples occasionally. Think about any style of music which at first you didn't like and then grew to love, and then think about whether it would have been better if you had refrained from giving it a second (third, fourth etc) chance.
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AbrahamSapien
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Location: Slovenia
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 04:46 |
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Prog metal ... I was never really atracted by most
other stuff even though I tried.
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 05:08 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
someone_else wrote:
I am neither a fan nor a hater. In general I prefer Prog Metal as long as it does not come too close to death metal (that's why I don't tend to explore Tech/Extreme Prog Metal MP3 samples on PA).
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You should still listen to such samples occasionally. Think about any style of music which at first you didn't like and then grew to love, and then think about whether it would have been better if you had refrained from giving it a second (third, fourth etc) chance. |
I tried  . I got hold of the whole Opeth discography and a few others and I just don't like the Death Metal scene at all - prog or no. 
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desistindo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 02 2010
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 09:50 |
rogerthat wrote:
I find that pretty understandable, even if not logical, perhaps. Synth is the sworn enemy of hard rock/heavy metal fans, so it's not surprising at all to me that they'd dislike archetypal prog metal. People generally like metal more for the energy and aggression and not so much for great composition (even if they might claim that is the case). Compare Iron Maiden's performance of Hallowed...in the famous Hammersmith 1982 show with Dream Theater's of the same song and you can see the latter feels a lot more calculated and lot less energetic. Ok, maybe you don't see it that way, but even I do and a lot of people who like 'pure' metal more would too.Yeah, sure, Adrian Smith can't do the things Petrucci can but a lot of people don't care about that so much. |
Totally agree. For me, prog metal is a medium between sophistication and aggression, so if id like to listen sophistication i go to symphonic prog, where the excellence in this range is, if id like agression and energy i go to traditional metal, where the excellence in this range is. Simple as that. Is like if you like theater and symphonic music, but dont like opera, cause the music in symphonies is better and the performance in theater is better, wich dont implies that u will like the mixture. Basically, the fusion in prog metal can put both tendencies in middling.
Edited by desistindo - June 23 2011 at 10:00
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 10:03 |
Metal bad -- prog metal worse. grunt 
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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QuestionableScum
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Edmonton
Status: Offline
Points: 245
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 10:18 |
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As far as prog metal versus non-prog metal, it really depends on the band and genre.
I really don't like Symphony X or DT, however I really enjoy Cynic, Agalloch, Opeth, Grayceon, Pelican etc.
I tend to prefer prefer prog metal from the tech/extreme subgenres, or from the post/experimental subgenre, but even in those subgenres there is much that I do not enjoy.
Whereas with non-prog metal I enjoy certain forms of black metal, and certain forms of doom metal. But even within those subgenres there is a lot of stuff that is mediocre and terrible, and just a few good bands doing interesting stuff.
So, in essence metal is so broad it is really hard to say prog metal or non-prog metal. I think that both genres have a lot of garbage and some gems.
Edited by QuestionableScum - June 23 2011 at 10:20
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 10:59 |
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I like some old metal, though. Rusty metal? Bronze age metal?
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 11:03 |
JJLehto wrote:
Well depends how you look at it. I've heard that "oh god (insert prog metal band) is soooo cheesy I cant even listen to them" but then they go to listen to thrash/death/black/traditional metal. It's all pretty ridiculous.
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LOL, this. 
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 11:56 |
desistindo wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
I find that pretty understandable, even if not logical, perhaps. Synth is the sworn enemy of hard rock/heavy metal fans, so it's not surprising at all to me that they'd dislike archetypal prog metal. People generally like metal more for the energy and aggression and not so much for great composition (even if they might claim that is the case). Compare Iron Maiden's performance of Hallowed...in the famous Hammersmith 1982 show with Dream Theater's of the same song and you can see the latter feels a lot more calculated and lot less energetic. Ok, maybe you don't see it that way, but even I do and a lot of people who like 'pure' metal more would too.Yeah, sure, Adrian Smith can't do the things Petrucci can but a lot of people don't care about that so much. |
Totally agree. For me, prog metal is a medium between sophistication and aggression, so if id like to listen sophistication i go to symphonic prog, where the excellence in this range is, if id like agression and energy i go to traditional metal, where the excellence in this range is. Simple as that. Is like if you like theater and symphonic music, but dont like opera, cause the music in symphonies is better and the performance in theater is better, wich dont implies that u will like the mixture. Basically, the fusion in prog metal can put both tendencies in middling.
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That's a very good example for different reasons because I don't really like operatic singing. I like the pomp of theatricality because with rock elements, it makes for a kicka** combination (interpreting theater as theater rock here and not theater as in acting). Symphony of course is just grand and ambitious in its scope.
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Slaughternalia
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Joined: February 17 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 901
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 12:02 |
JJLehto wrote:
Well depends how you look at it. I've heard that "oh god (insert prog metal band) is soooo cheesy I cant even listen to them" but then they go to listen to thrash/death/black/traditional metal. It's all pretty ridiculous.
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Prog metal is far cheesier than most thrash/death/black/traditional methinks. The only metal that's cheesier than prog metal is power metal.
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I'm so mad that you enjoy a certain combination of noises that I don't
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Metal: good! Prog Metal: Blagh!
