Worst Led Zeppelin Song |
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giselle
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 18 2011 Location: Hertford Status: Offline Points: 466 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 11:49 | ||
Led Zeppelin were not bona fide songwriters; their forte was creating riff structures with lyrics thrown on top. They did at times manage to write some songs, albeit rather rudimentary and uninspirational - Stairway to Heaven is a song for instance, the atmosphere comes from the playing and arrangement, not the written piece. That's not to say that what they did wasn't valid, I like a lot of it, Kashmir is one of my favourite Rock tracks, wonderful riffs and clever chord arrangements - but it isn't a song.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:01 | ||
This is a Prog forum, surely here anything with instrumentation and vocals (music and lyrics) qualifies as a song regardless of whether it conforms to any undefined notion of what a song is.
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What?
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: May 16 2009 Location: Blighty Status: Offline Points: 6797 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:05 | ||
Kashmir is a song in my songbook!
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Help me I'm falling!
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giselle
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 18 2011 Location: Hertford Status: Offline Points: 466 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:10 | ||
Not in mine.
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giselle
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 18 2011 Location: Hertford Status: Offline Points: 466 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:11 | ||
That's actually quite a shocking thing to say. A song is more than just instrumentation and vocals (music and lyrics) flung together in some jumbled matrimony.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5208 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:17 | ||
The definition of a "song" is remarkably elusive. It can be fun to figure out, especially when you're thinking about copyrights. How many country / folk / bluegrass songs utilize the exact same melodic themes, same chord structure, and the only original thing is the lyrics. Many of the most lauded "songwriters" come from this group of genres.
Nothing jazz or blues related is going to fit within the kind of definition of "song" I think you're implying. What about Krautrock???
No Quarter and the Rain Song are pretty great rock songs in my book.
I would be curious how you define a song, and why the distinctions matter to you.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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giselle
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 18 2011 Location: Hertford Status: Offline Points: 466 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:49 | ||
It’s true that a song is often portrayed by the general public as a melody and lyrics and nothing more, but most people are also swayed by what they hear on a record or performance, ie, the voice, the arrangement, the instrumentation, the playing. A song is best defined as an entity that stands on its own, and that can be adapted to many styles and performances. A great song played badly on an out of tune piano and sung by a terrible singer is still a great song. Too many recordings (and prog recordings in particular, like the jazz era before) consist of arrangement, performance, instrumentation, and recording technique but no song (or little) at all. There is a songwriting tradition stretching way back in time which gives form and meaning to the structures of a true song, which real writers tap into, while the best and inspirational writers add something new of their own. The Beatles were the last great songwriters, which is ridiculous, given how long ago that was. The tradition they tapped into was Cole Porter, Gershwin, Carmichael etc etc. Bob Dylan tapped into a different tradition of songs, the folk tunes gathered by generations, but it was the same ethos. Both approaches gave form and structure and foundation to anything that was built upon them. It’s high time we had a new era of songwriters who can do the same thing. But I don’t see any sign of it here in these archives, only great musicians and wonderful recording techniques. Imagine a marriage of the two then you get some idea of what’s possible. Without an inspirational song as the heart of a track, there will always be a lack of ultimate quality. (IMO!). |
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5208 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 13:06 | ||
This is a romantic notion, but what does "There is a songwriting tradition stretching way back in time which gives form and meaning to the structures of a true song" mean? Personally, the only thing that you can truly say transfers between multiple performances by different musicians of the same song that truly unifies is melodic theme. The four notes of Beethoven's Fifth are it's signature, without those, it is not the same song. When Frank Sinatra called George Harrison's "Something" the best love song ever written, he was talking about the melodic themes. The opening line of "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight" by Genesis has that quality as does the Flute / Guitar theme in "Firth of Fifth."Relating back to Led Zeppelin, guitar riffs can carry that weight. Kashmir's chromatic climb is so recognizable that virtually every chromatic climb since gets labeled a Kashmir ripoff. And while Robert Plant did often use similar lyrics and melodic patterns over different riffs, he also has some signature melodies and words, the most obvious of which is Stairway. When I hear you say Zeppelin weren't songwriters, what I feel is that you're referring to Plant's way of singing very similarly over many of Page's patterns. But often, those songs are defined not by Plant but by Page. The Rain Song is a great example. The lyrics are great, but you can play that song with a single guitar and it still is a monstrously beautiful piece of work.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: May 16 2009 Location: Blighty Status: Offline Points: 6797 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 13:07 | ||
So Kashmir lacks quality?
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Help me I'm falling!
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 13:51 | ||
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What?
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 08 2008 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 3595 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:10 | ||
I can't f**kin' believe it. How could you turn a thread as HOLY and BEAUTIFUL as WORST LED ZEPPELIN SONG EVER into another:
"What's prog? What's music? What's songs? Why not put your hand as far as you can inside until you touch it, feel it wiggle? Yeah, that's the spot, no don't stop - it likes it.' This is a disgrace to all Zep-haters on the planet.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5208 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:18 | ||
Zep-haters deserve every bit of disgrace we can imagine and dole out.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 13 2004 Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:20 | ||
The best song ever written was Ace Of Spades. Now that's a song if there ever was a song. Too bad my hearing was gone by the time they got around to playing it live.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 08 2008 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 3595 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:26 | ||
If I have to sit through that bloated pothead's BABY BABY BABY BABYA PHHHHH HEYHEYMOMMA BABY I BEEN DAZED AND BABYYYYYYY OHHH BABY one more time, I'm probably going to vomit.
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 13 2004 Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:36 | ||
Push! Push! Push ! what the f**k was that all about?
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5208 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 15:01 | ||
Who would have guessed that the Jesus dude would hate the Alistair Crowley worshipper? Hmmm....
No one accused Robert Plant of being a deep thinker or great lyricist. But having seen him live twice, I can say he may be the best lead singer of all time. The guy's stage presence is scary. Like sold his soul to strange beings scary.
Anyway, dig them or don't.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 08 2008 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 3595 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 15:20 | ||
They're okay. I don't deify or detest them. At most, I'd give (if I were to exchange my soul for numbers) my favorite Zep album (IV, naturally) 4/5 stars or whatever. I'll admit Plant was a 'powerful' singer, but I'd take about a zillion singers over the guy. Stevie Wonder for his emotion, Tom Waits for his...whatever you call it, Rob Halford for his higher range, Bjork, blah blah blah. My problem is with their sheer purpose. They never wrote music to deeply touch your soul, or to bear theirs on the line. They didn't have a Lennon/Plastic Ono Band appeal. They weren't honestly experimental (unless experimental means fiddling about with longer song structures and adding folk elements - both things that Jethro Tull and Comus and tons of other groups did about the same time. So I can't rightly give a damn about their 'experimenting'. Not that experiments are that important to me. In honesty, they were a simple hard rock group - very skilled at playing. I'd never deny their technical abilities, but the notes they play, the hard rock riffs they wrote/stole, the words they sang, the melodies they offered - I don't give too much of a f**k about any of it. There were faster bands, there were louder bands, there were bluesier bands, there were bands with guitarists who could play faster, more technical music, there were singers that could sing more powerfully, with a wider range than Plant, there were faster drummers. The band didn't even do hard rock first (again, originality to me is terribly low on the list, this is just a general flow of vaguely related ideas). Hell, there were bands that did more drugs and had more lecherous sex, I'm sure. So then doesn't it come down to the notes they play? And that's where they lose me, completely. I plumb don't give a damn about 3/4th of their melodies. Good Times, Bad Times? Love the song. Stairway? Sure, it's not even overplayed to my ears. Immigrant Song? Wonderful. Black Dog? Damn fine riff there, Mr. But you get me in a room with 'Crunge' or something, and I turn tail and flee. Kashmir? Is that duhduhduh duhduh duh dudududududududooooo worth eight minutes? That's an opinion, but I never could stand the tune the whole way through. I always preferred it be two or three minutes long, instead.
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 13 2004 Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 15:33 | ||
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giselle
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 18 2011 Location: Hertford Status: Offline Points: 466 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 17:00 | ||
It means what it says and shouldn’t need further elaboration.
It’s totally wrong to say that the only thing that transfers is melodic theme – that’s not sufficient. You’re adding 2+2 and getting 22. I wouldn’t listen to much of what Frank Sinatra says about songs, even though he was a fine singer of expression. No, I can’t agree Genesis has that quality, though they’re not without some quality.
No, guitar riffs can’t carry that weight. I love Kashmir and its exceptional riff qualities and clever structure, but what has that got to do with songs? It’s significant you say that Page defines rather than Plant, that rather underlines my proposition. |
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dreadpirateroberts
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 27 2011 Location: AU Status: Offline Points: 952 |
Posted: May 28 2011 at 09:25 | ||
Getting back on topic for a moment, I'd argue that 'Wearing and Tearing' is their worst song. I am a Zep fan, but not so one-eyed that I can't see what's totally wrong with the track.
Apparently written as an 'up yours'' to punk - but missing the point so utterly - that it has to be their worst. No point trying to take on the punk ethos with a 5 minute song that just isn't loose, or that lacks attitude, or uses so much innuendo. (not to say punk can't be subtle of course) Zep would have been better off reminding the punk kids of the day about 'Communication Breakdown.' |
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