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Worst Led Zeppelin Song

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Topic: Worst Led Zeppelin Song
Posted By: steppenfloyd
Subject: Worst Led Zeppelin Song
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 16:40
I went with Houses Of The Holy. I can't stand that song.



Replies:
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 16:44
Some really great songs there.

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 16:46
I'll pass.

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Posted By: tarkus1980
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 16:50
MISTY MOUNTAIN HOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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"History of Rock Written by the Losers."


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 17:04
I don't understand your reasoning for some of those songs. Actually Led Zep were one of the most consistent bands of all time. The 2 songs I consider to be their "worst" aren't even mentioned and they are Sick Again and Hots On For Nowhere (especially the solo).


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 17:06
Originally posted by tarkus1980 tarkus1980 wrote:

MISTY MOUNTAIN HOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One of my favorites actually.  I do have this thing against rock and roll songs about rock and roll.


Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 17:15
I don't think I've heard all of them, but D'yer Maker has always annoyed me.


Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 17:15
Ok so its not the worst Led Zep song.  Its the one I can no longer listen to.  Stairway to effing Heaven .  Drives me mad. 
 
 


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Help me I'm falling!


Posted By: steppenfloyd
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 17:18
I didn't pick all of these songs b/c I had something against them. I like some of the songs that I put, but I figured it wouldn't be a fair poll if I only chose songs that I didn't like.


Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 17:36
Probably something of 3. I didn't care too much for that album.

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Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 17:39
D'yer Maker is my choice. 


Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 17:43
D'yer Maker. Just terrible and really annoying. 


Posted By: Tarquin Underspoon
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 17:46
I really just can't deal with Hot Dog.
 
But this poll just goes to show exactly how strong Zeppelin's complete body of work really is.


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"WAAAAAAOOOOOUGH!    WAAAAAAAUUUUGGHHHH!!   WAAAAAOOOO!!!"

-The Great Gig in the Sky


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 18:10
Every song on In Through the Out Door


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 18:38
I actually like In Through The Out Door.  It's title makes more sense than Up The Downstair. LOL
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Ok so its not the worst Led Zep song.  Its the one I can no longer listen to.  Stairway to effing Heaven .  Drives me mad. 
 
 

The funny thing is that despite being waaaaaaay waaaaaay waaaaay overplayed on the radio, it's actually a decent song.  By the way, for comic relief, Zappa covers it on Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life.


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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 18:39
  ^ ^ boo !    Smile

and OP are you nuts ? --


The Ocean
What is and What Should Never Be

  ... the worst of Zep?   yeeeaaaahhhhhhh I don't think so






Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 18:44
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

  ^ ^ boo !    Smile

and OP are you nuts ? --


The Ocean
What is and What Should Never Be

  ... the worst of Zep?   yeeeaaaahhhhhhh I don't think so





Well, at least he didn't put Kashmir on it.  I would have had to seriously hurt him. Ouch

Any where the hell is Rock and Roll???  Woo yeah, woo yeah!!!

OK, I'll join the pile on for D'yer Maker. LOL


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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 19:13
There's a proggy who's sure
All that's heavy is lead
And he's voting for "Stairway to Heaven"


Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 20:31
D'yer Maker is the only Led Zep song in their whole discography that I can't stand.

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 20:52
Out of the list? Ozone Baby?

I don't know. I can't say I dislike any of their songs.

D'yer Maker is one of my favorite from them.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 21:10
You have some of their best songs on that listAngry
 
Voted 'Candy Store Rock'. I must be one of the few people who loves 'D'yer Mak'er".


Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 21:16
I love D'yer Maker too, all this bashing is hurting my feelings. Cry

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Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 21:20
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Out of the list? Ozone Baby?

I don't know. I can't say I dislike any of their songs.

D'yer Maker is one of my favorite from them.

Jamaica? (correct spelling)

D'yer maker? (Cockney accent)

Did you make her? (complete sentence)

D'yer Maker? (contracted sentence)

Ergo, did you have sex with that babe, because this song is just a send up of reggae music illustrated by the play on words in the title and the very non-Zeppelin music structure?

(In case you didn't already know - not trying to be the Messiah of PA) LOL



Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 21:25
-Anything except In The Evening from In Through the Out Door
-Anything from Coda
-Any of "their" songs that they ripped off other artists, which pains me to include Stairway to Heaven.


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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 21:28
Originally posted by Ronnie Pilgrim Ronnie Pilgrim wrote:


Jamaica? (correct spelling)
D'yer maker? (Cockney accent)
Did you make her? (complete sentence)
D'yer Maker? (contracted sentence)

Ergo, did you have sex with that babe, because this song is just a send up of reggae music illustrated by the play on words in the title and the very non-Zeppelin music structure?
(In case you didn't already know - not trying to be the Messiah of PA) LOL


 except, oddly enough, if I read the original joke correctly it's much more innocuous; "Did you make her" refers to making the wife to go on vacation, not sex - -

'The wife and I went on an island holiday.'
'Ja maka?'
'No she went on her own accord.'





Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 21:36
^Thanks Atav. I was relying on my memory of a DJ explanation from 1973. I like yours better - and it makes more sense. Wink


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 21:42
my pleasure--  all Zep, all the time


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 04 2011 at 21:59
I'm not a big Zep fan by any stretch of the imagination but the only song listed that I heartily loathe is 'In My Time of Dying' which I find an interminable dirge.

BTW I think I'm the only critter in the universe who actually likes Hotdog Embarrassed


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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 01:36
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

D'yer Maker is one of my favorite from them.


I love that song!

I couldn't call any songs by Zepp bad. There are a few on the list that aren't great either. Page's pick is Livin' Lovin' Maid, and I agree with him. Still a nice rock'n'roll song, though.


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 05:07
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I'm not a big Zep fan by any stretch of the imagination but the only song listed that I heartily loathe is 'In My Time of Dying' which I find an interminable dirge.

 

I've gone off you as that is one of their best songs ever,.


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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 05:24
What's wrong with D'yer Maker? Such a cool track..


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 06:22
Originally posted by Conor Fynes Conor Fynes wrote:

What's wrong with D'yer Maker? Such a cool track..


I like it as well - Bonzo is great on this one. Now I'm wondering why The Crunge isn't on that list.


Posted By: Harold-The-Barrel
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:03
Dyer Maker in poll position and I agree its a bad song but I've always hated the sleep inducing indulgence of Dazed and Confused

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You must be joking.....Take a running jump......


Posted By: Tull Freak 94
Date Posted: May 22 2011 at 04:28
Boogie with Stu?


Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: May 22 2011 at 05:52
I'd vote for "I'm Gonna Crawl", but it's not on the list.

And y'all keep leaving the second apostrophe out of "D'yer Mak'er".




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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 22 2011 at 08:46
D'yer Mak'er.

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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: clarkpegasus4001
Date Posted: May 22 2011 at 22:07
Not on the list but I would say Hot Dog 

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Tony C.



Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: May 22 2011 at 22:08
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

I'll pass.


Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: May 22 2011 at 22:47
Look, I love Zeppelin but Dancing Days is just a no go. Also there are a lot of songs on that list that should not be up there.

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Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: May 22 2011 at 23:17
LOL @ this poll. 

Makes no sense ... 


Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: May 23 2011 at 00:14
Tea for One (aka since i've been loving you 2.0)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 23 2011 at 00:22
My choice would have to be either "Ramble On" or "Four Sticks." 

From the options listed, I'll go with "Dancing Days."


Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: May 23 2011 at 15:34
Originally posted by tarkus1980 tarkus1980 wrote:

MISTY MOUNTAIN HOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I love Misty Mountain Hop.  It makes me think of my ex-hippie high school english teacher.

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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: May 23 2011 at 17:14
The only one that comes close to getting my vote is Fool In the Rain. And I honestly don't hate it....it has a nice beat, easy to dance to.....LOL


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Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: May 24 2011 at 02:16
Probably "The Crunge" or "Battle Of Evermore"

Or any of those pointless 30 minute live versions of Dazed and Confused. It was cool when I was 14 and didn't know any better but now it's just unlistenable.


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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: May 24 2011 at 08:31
Djer Maker
detestable song
 
And what's Immigrant Song doing on there? Thats about their best!


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Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 24 2011 at 09:35
Do I only get to pick ONE, mamma?!

Anything offa III, anything from Physical Graffiti, and hell, just plain anything after IV. So it's easier to say what I don't hate. :P


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 24 2011 at 09:54
From this list Ozone Baby, easily....
 
However stuff like Hot Dog or Southbound Saurez are just as bad if not worse...
 
They had some real stinkers from House Of The Holly onwards (Ocean, Crunge, etc....)


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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: May 24 2011 at 10:33
The Ocean is a stinker?

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: May 24 2011 at 10:55
Hadto go with Stairway OVER f**king played. FM Radio ruined that one.

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: May 24 2011 at 11:43
That doesn't make it their worst song.

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 24 2011 at 11:55
Celebration Day, I think


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 24 2011 at 13:14
Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

 
And what's Immigrant Song doing on there? Thats about their best!


I could say that about most of the songs here. Most modern rock bands would kill to have songs as good as these.


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: May 24 2011 at 13:55
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

That doesn't make it their worst song.


Well yeah it does but it's not their fault.. It's a great song but waaaaaaaaaaaay up there on the over familiarity scale. I Mean how many times do I have to hear We Will Rock You. C'mon man!


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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: May 24 2011 at 14:23
I like every one listed. There must be something wrong with meLOL

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Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: May 26 2011 at 12:32
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Conor Fynes Conor Fynes wrote:

What's wrong with D'yer Maker? Such a cool track..


I like it as well - Bonzo is great on this one. Now I'm wondering why The Crunge isn't on that list.
 
I was just about to mention The Crunge. Think that would probably be my worst.
 
Sticking to the list though I've always found Living Loving Maid a bit of a throwaway.


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 26 2011 at 16:51
Whole Lotta Love - boring
Kashmir - really boring
Carouselambra - ouch





Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: May 26 2011 at 17:49
Too difficult to choose; not many Led Zep songs are even songs, never mind good. Though I love a few of the tracks.


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 10:17
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

not many Led Zep songs are even songs.
 
What does that mean?


Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 11:14
Zeppelin deserves their place as the #2 Rock Band of All time. They are monstrous.
 
Many of the choices off that list are superb songs.
 
Alot of the last album songs (Including Physical Graffiti) aren't nearly as strong as early but I still like virtually everything from the band.
 
I guess if I had to pick my least favorite it would be Hats off to Roy Harper. Though I applaud the though, the song is annoying. 


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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.


Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 11:49
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

not many Led Zep songs are even songs.
 
What does that mean?
 
Led Zeppelin were not bona fide songwriters; their forte was creating riff structures with lyrics thrown on top. They did at times manage to write some songs, albeit rather rudimentary and uninspirational - Stairway to Heaven is a song for instance, the atmosphere comes from the playing and arrangement, not the written piece. That's not to say that what they did wasn't valid, I like a lot of it, Kashmir is one of my favourite Rock tracks, wonderful riffs and clever chord arrangements - but it isn't a song.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:01
This is a Prog forum, surely here anything with instrumentation and vocals (music and lyrics) qualifies as a song regardless of whether it conforms to any undefined notion of what a song is.

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What?


Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:05
Kashmir is a song in my songbook!

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Help me I'm falling!


Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:10
Not in mine.


Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:11
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

This is a Prog forum, surely here anything with instrumentation and vocals (music and lyrics) qualifies as a song regardless of whether it conforms to any undefined notion of what a song is.
 
That's actually quite a shocking thing to say. A song is more than just instrumentation and vocals (music and lyrics) flung together in some jumbled matrimony.


Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:17
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

not many Led Zep songs are even songs.
 
What does that mean?
 
Led Zeppelin were not bona fide songwriters; their forte was creating riff structures with lyrics thrown on top. They did at times manage to write some songs, albeit rather rudimentary and uninspirational - Stairway to Heaven is a song for instance, the atmosphere comes from the playing and arrangement, not the written piece. That's not to say that what they did wasn't valid, I like a lot of it, Kashmir is one of my favourite Rock tracks, wonderful riffs and clever chord arrangements - but it isn't a song.
 
The definition of a "song" is remarkably elusive. It can be fun to figure out, especially when you're thinking about copyrights. How many country / folk / bluegrass songs utilize the exact same melodic themes, same chord structure, and the only original thing is the lyrics. Many of the most lauded "songwriters" come from this group of genres.
 
Nothing jazz or blues related is going to fit within the kind of definition of "song" I think you're implying. What about Krautrock???
 
No Quarter and the Rain Song are pretty great rock songs in my book.
 
 
 
I would be curious how you define a song, and why the distinctions matter to you.


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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.


Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:49

It’s true that a song is often portrayed by the general public as a melody and lyrics and nothing more, but most people are also swayed by what they hear on a record or performance, ie, the voice, the arrangement, the instrumentation, the playing. A song is best defined as an entity that stands on its own, and that can be adapted to many styles and performances. A great song played badly on an out of tune piano and sung by a terrible singer is still a great song. Too many recordings (and prog recordings in particular, like the jazz era before) consist of arrangement, performance, instrumentation, and recording technique but no song (or little) at all.

There is a songwriting tradition stretching way back in time which gives form and meaning to the structures of a true song, which real writers tap into, while the best and inspirational writers add something new of their own.  The Beatles were the last great songwriters, which is ridiculous, given how long ago that was. The tradition they tapped into was Cole Porter, Gershwin, Carmichael etc etc. Bob Dylan tapped into a different tradition of songs, the folk tunes gathered by generations, but it was the same ethos. Both approaches gave form and structure and foundation to anything that was built upon them. It’s high time we had a new era of songwriters who can do the same thing. But I don’t see any sign of it here in these archives, only great musicians and wonderful recording techniques. Imagine a marriage of the two then you get some idea of what’s possible. Without an inspirational song as the heart of a track, there will always be a lack of ultimate quality. (IMO!).



Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 13:06

This is a romantic notion, but what does "There is a songwriting tradition stretching way back in time which gives form and meaning to the structures of a true song" mean?

Personally, the only thing that you can truly say transfers between multiple performances by different musicians of the same song that truly unifies is melodic theme. The four notes of Beethoven's Fifth are it's signature, without those, it is not the same song. When Frank Sinatra called George Harrison's "Something" the best love song ever written, he was talking about the melodic themes. The opening line of "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight" by Genesis has that quality as does the Flute / Guitar theme in "Firth of Fifth."
 
Relating back to Led Zeppelin, guitar riffs can carry that weight. Kashmir's chromatic climb is so recognizable that virtually every chromatic climb since gets labeled a Kashmir ripoff. And while Robert Plant did often use similar lyrics and melodic patterns over different riffs, he also has some signature melodies and words, the most obvious of which is Stairway. When I hear you say Zeppelin weren't songwriters, what I feel is that you're referring to Plant's way of singing very similarly over many of Page's patterns. But often, those songs are defined not by Plant but by Page. The Rain Song is a great example. The lyrics are great, but you can play that song with a single guitar and it still is a monstrously beautiful piece of work.


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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.


Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 13:07
So Kashmir lacks quality?
 
 


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Help me I'm falling!


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 13:51
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

This is a Prog forum, surely here anything with instrumentation and vocals (music and lyrics) qualifies as a song regardless of whether it conforms to any undefined notion of what a song is.
 
That's actually quite a shocking thing to say. A song is more than just instrumentation and vocals (music and lyrics) flung together in some jumbled matrimony.
Prog has an element of avant garde that tends to make many things seem shocking, a jumbled matrimony would aptly describe Can and Faust for example.

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What?


Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:10
I can't f**kin' believe it. How could you turn a thread as HOLY and BEAUTIFUL as WORST LED ZEPPELIN SONG EVER into another:

"What's prog? What's music? What's songs? Why not put your hand as far as you can inside until you touch it, feel it wiggle? Yeah, that's the spot, no don't stop - it likes it.'

This is a disgrace to all Zep-haters on the planet.


Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:18
Originally posted by Alitare Alitare wrote:

I can't f**kin' believe it. How could you turn a thread as HOLY and BEAUTIFUL as WORST LED ZEPPELIN SONG EVER into another:

"What's prog? What's music? What's songs? Why not put your hand as far as you can inside until you touch it, feel it wiggle? Yeah, that's the spot, no don't stop - it likes it.'

This is a disgrace to all Zep-haters on the planet.
 
 
Zep-haters deserve every bit of disgrace we can imagine and dole out.


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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:20
The best song ever written was Ace Of Spades. Now that's a song if there ever was a song. Too bad my hearing was gone by the time they got around to playing it live.






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Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:26
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Alitare Alitare wrote:

I can't f**kin' believe it. How could you turn a thread as HOLY and BEAUTIFUL as WORST LED ZEPPELIN SONG EVER into another:

"What's prog? What's music? What's songs? Why not put your hand as far as you can inside until you touch it, feel it wiggle? Yeah, that's the spot, no don't stop - it likes it.'

This is a disgrace to all Zep-haters on the planet.
 
 
Zep-haters deserve every bit of disgrace we can imagine and dole out.

If I have to sit through that bloated pothead's BABY BABY BABY BABYA PHHHHH HEYHEYMOMMA BABY I BEEN DAZED AND BABYYYYYYY OHHH BABY one more time, I'm probably going to vomit.


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:36
Push! Push! Push ! what the f**k was that all about?



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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 15:01
Who would have guessed that the Jesus dude would hate the Alistair Crowley worshipper? Hmmm....
 
No one accused Robert Plant of being a deep thinker or great lyricist. But having seen him live twice, I can say he may be the best lead singer of all time. The guy's stage presence is scary. Like sold his soul to strange beings scary.
 
Anyway, dig them or don't. 
 


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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.


Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 15:20
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Who would have guessed that the Jesus dude would hate the Alistair Crowley worshipper? Hmmm....
 
No one accused Robert Plant of being a deep thinker or great lyricist. But having seen him live twice, I can say he may be the best lead singer of all time. The guy's stage presence is scary. Like sold his soul to strange beings scary.
 
Anyway, dig them or don't. 
 

They're okay. I don't deify or detest them. At most, I'd give (if I were to exchange my soul for numbers) my favorite Zep album (IV, naturally) 4/5 stars or whatever. I'll admit Plant was a 'powerful' singer, but I'd take about a zillion singers over the guy. Stevie Wonder for his emotion, Tom Waits for his...whatever you call it, Rob Halford for his higher range, Bjork, blah blah blah. My problem is with their sheer purpose. They never wrote music to deeply touch your soul, or to bear theirs on the line. They didn't have a Lennon/Plastic Ono Band appeal. They weren't honestly experimental (unless experimental means fiddling about with longer song structures and adding folk elements - both things that Jethro Tull and Comus and tons of other groups did about the same time. So I can't rightly give a damn about their 'experimenting'. Not that experiments are that important to me. 

In honesty, they were a simple hard rock group - very skilled at playing. I'd never deny their technical abilities, but the notes they play, the hard rock riffs they wrote/stole, the words they sang, the melodies they offered - I don't give too much of a f**k about any of it. There were faster bands, there were louder bands, there were bluesier bands, there were bands with guitarists who could play faster, more technical music, there were singers that could sing more powerfully, with a wider range than Plant, there were faster drummers. The band didn't even do hard rock first (again, originality to me is terribly low on the list, this is just a general flow of vaguely related ideas). 

Hell, there were bands that did more drugs and had more lecherous sex, I'm sure. So then doesn't it come down to the notes they play? And that's where they lose me, completely. I plumb don't give a damn about 3/4th of their melodies. Good Times, Bad Times? Love the song. Stairway? Sure, it's not even overplayed to my ears. Immigrant Song? Wonderful. Black Dog? Damn fine riff there, Mr. But you get me in a room with 'Crunge' or something, and I turn tail and flee. Kashmir? Is that duhduhduh duhduh duh dudududududududooooo worth eight minutes? That's an opinion, but I never could stand the tune the whole way through. I always preferred it be two or three minutes long, instead. 


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 15:33
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Who would have guessed that the Jesus dude would hate the Alistair Crowley worshipper? Hmmm....
 
No one accused Robert Plant of being a deep thinker or great lyricist. But having seen him live twice, I can say he may be the best lead singer of all time. The guy's stage presence is scary. Like sold his soul to strange beings scary.
 
Anyway, dig them or don't. 
 
  So does this mean that Led Zepelin was better than Elvis? C'mon. If it weren't for Elvis there would not have been Led Zeppelin. And if it wereN,t for Anne Margaret there would'nt have bee an Elvis '68 comeback.


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Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: May 27 2011 at 17:00
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

This is a romantic notion, but what does "There is a songwriting tradition stretching way back in time which gives form and meaning to the structures of a true song" mean?

Personally, the only thing that you can truly say transfers between multiple performances by different musicians of the same song that truly unifies is melodic theme. The four notes of Beethoven's Fifth are it's signature, without those, it is not the same song. When Frank Sinatra called George Harrison's "Something" the best love song ever written, he was talking about the melodic themes. The opening line of "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight" by Genesis has that quality as does the Flute / Guitar theme in "Firth of Fifth."
 
Relating back to Led Zeppelin, guitar riffs can carry that weight. Kashmir's chromatic climb is so recognizable that virtually every chromatic climb since gets labeled a Kashmir ripoff. And while Robert Plant did often use similar lyrics and melodic patterns over different riffs, he also has some signature melodies and words, the most obvious of which is Stairway. When I hear you say Zeppelin weren't songwriters, what I feel is that you're referring to Plant's way of singing very similarly over many of Page's patterns. But often, those songs are defined not by Plant but by Page. The Rain Song is a great example. The lyrics are great, but you can play that song with a single guitar and it still is a monstrously beautiful piece of work.
 
It means what it says and shouldn’t need further elaboration.
 
It’s totally wrong to say that the only thing that transfers is melodic theme – that’s not sufficient. You’re adding 2+2 and getting 22. I wouldn’t listen to much of what Frank Sinatra says about songs, even though he was a fine singer of expression.  No, I can’t agree Genesis has that quality, though they’re not without some quality.
 
No, guitar riffs can’t carry that weight. I love Kashmir and its exceptional riff qualities and clever structure, but what has that got to do with songs? It’s significant you say that Page defines rather than Plant, that rather underlines my proposition. 


Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: May 28 2011 at 09:25
Getting back on topic for a moment, I'd argue that 'Wearing and Tearing' is their worst song. I am a Zep fan, but not so one-eyed that I can't see what's totally wrong with the track.

Apparently written as an 'up yours'' to punk - but missing the point so utterly - that it has to be their worst. No point trying to take on the punk ethos with a 5 minute song that just isn't loose, or that lacks attitude, or uses so much innuendo. (not to say punk can't be subtle of course)

Zep would have been better off reminding the punk kids of the day about 'Communication Breakdown.'


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We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 28 2011 at 14:12
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

Push! Push! Push ! what the f**k was that all about?



Surely we don't need to explain that? Next you'll be asking what "I wanna be your back door man" means.


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 28 2011 at 14:14
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

not many Led Zep songs are even songs.
 
What does that mean?
 
Led Zeppelin were not bona fide songwriters; their forte was creating riff structures with lyrics thrown on top. They did at times manage to write some songs, albeit rather rudimentary and uninspirational - Stairway to Heaven is a song for instance, the atmosphere comes from the playing and arrangement, not the written piece. That's not to say that what they did wasn't valid, I like a lot of it, Kashmir is one of my favourite Rock tracks, wonderful riffs and clever chord arrangements - but it isn't a song.


I agree a lot of Zep numbere were based on riffs but I don't get why Stairway is a "song" and Kashmir isn't.


Posted By: Earendil
Date Posted: May 28 2011 at 15:03
D'yer Maker bad? Ermm


Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 03:41
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

not many Led Zep songs are even songs.
 
What does that mean?
 
Led Zeppelin were not bona fide songwriters; their forte was creating riff structures with lyrics thrown on top. They did at times manage to write some songs, albeit rather rudimentary and uninspirational - Stairway to Heaven is a song for instance, the atmosphere comes from the playing and arrangement, not the written piece. That's not to say that what they did wasn't valid, I like a lot of it, Kashmir is one of my favourite Rock tracks, wonderful riffs and clever chord arrangements - but it isn't a song.


I agree a lot of Zep numbere were based on riffs but I don't get why Stairway is a "song" and Kashmir isn't.
 
Stairway's structure is based on melody and lyrics in a song form, it could exist outside the band performance. Kashmir is based on riffs and arrangement, it couldn't exist credibly without that structure around it. I have to stress again though that Kashmir is a marvellous piece of work (IMO).


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 06:20
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

not many Led Zep songs are even songs.
 
What does that mean?
 
Led Zeppelin were not bona fide songwriters; their forte was creating riff structures with lyrics thrown on top. They did at times manage to write some songs, albeit rather rudimentary and uninspirational - Stairway to Heaven is a song for instance, the atmosphere comes from the playing and arrangement, not the written piece. That's not to say that what they did wasn't valid, I like a lot of it, Kashmir is one of my favourite Rock tracks, wonderful riffs and clever chord arrangements - but it isn't a song.


I agree a lot of Zep numbere were based on riffs but I don't get why Stairway is a "song" and Kashmir isn't.
 
Stairway's structure is based on melody and lyrics in a song form, it could exist outside the band performance. Kashmir is based on riffs and arrangement, it couldn't exist credibly without that structure around it. I have to stress again though that Kashmir is a marvellous piece of work (IMO).
I'm confused - when does a riff-based "song" stop being a song? Is (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction not a song? If a riff forms a melodic structure then it is a melody, if the lyric is sung over a rhythmic refrain then that forms a melody. If you are saying that a "song" must have a strophic form of verse/chorus/bridge (eg verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus or similar) - then I question that, songs can have no repeating structure and still be songs, Happiness Is A Warm Gun for example, or any opera piece.

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What?


Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 07:11

There is a difference between ‘riff-based’ and a song with a riff. “I Can’t Get No” is a song. “Whole Lotta Love” isn’t. A song isn’t so much about verse-chorus etc, it can be whatever it is, the stricture is to do with tradition and writing form, much the same as in the best formal poetry. That’s not to say that rules can’t be broken, or more accurately, challenged. As Rick Wakeman said so accurately, you have to know what to do so you can avoid doing it that way. Indeed, that’s almost obligatory if inspiration is to play a part. But a lyric sung over a riff in a melody that works for that line alone (or for individual lines at a time) does not constitute a song.

There’s nothing wrong with a riff or musical composition that isn’t a song. If it works, it works, but it’s a different approach, more akin to arrangement. Songs are more to do with creative writing skills than the music for its own sake. Composers often show a bias towards melody and arrangement at the expense of lyrics and song structure. Translate a few operas and you’ll see what I mean! The foreign language often hides a lot of sins.

Sometimes the song is dictated by the structure already placed there by the lyric writer. Elton John didn't write those fine early songs, Bernie Taupin did, they were his songs in essence and substance. Elton did a marvellous job of drawing the music out of the words and structure, working like a sculptor who says that he can already see the figure in the stone before he begins. It's a particular kind of talent, but it isn't song-writing, it's being a tunesmith, secondary to the writer.


Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 08:35
"(Hats Off) To Roy Harper" and "I'm Gonna Crawl" are the two worst LZ songs.

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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 10:17
Does anybody know what Page's least favoute is ? You would not even believe it. 

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Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 10:25
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

There is a difference between ‘riff-based’ and a song with a riff. “I Can’t Get No” is a song. “Whole Lotta Love” isn’t. A song isn’t so much about verse-chorus etc, it can be whatever it is, the stricture is to do with tradition and writing form, much the same as in the best formal poetry. That’s not to say that rules can’t be broken, or more accurately, challenged. As Rick Wakeman said so accurately, you have to know what to do so you can avoid doing it that way. Indeed, that’s almost obligatory if inspiration is to play a part. But a lyric sung over a riff in a melody that works for that line alone (or for individual lines at a time) does not constitute a song.

There’s nothing wrong with a riff or musical composition that isn’t a song. If it works, it works, but it’s a different approach, more akin to arrangement. Songs are more to do with creative writing skills than the music for its own sake. Composers often show a bias towards melody and arrangement at the expense of lyrics and song structure. Translate a few operas and you’ll see what I mean! The foreign language often hides a lot of sins.

Sometimes the song is dictated by the structure already placed there by the lyric writer. Elton John didn't write those fine early songs, Bernie Taupin did, they were his songs in essence and substance. Elton did a marvellous job of drawing the music out of the words and structure, working like a sculptor who says that he can already see the figure in the stone before he begins. It's a particular kind of talent, but it isn't song-writing, it's being a tunesmith, secondary to the writer.

In my brain, I don't agree with a goddamn thing you just said.

In my heart, I agree with nearly all of it.


Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 17:11
Fool in the Rain.

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Jacob Kobrin Illustration


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 17:26
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

There is a difference between ‘riff-based’ and a song with a riff. “I Can’t Get No” is a song. “Whole Lotta Love” isn’t. A song isn’t so much about verse-chorus etc, it can be whatever it is, the stricture is to do with tradition and writing form, much the same as in the best formal poetry. That’s not to say that rules can’t be broken, or more accurately, challenged. As Rick Wakeman said so accurately, you have to know what to do so you can avoid doing it that way. Indeed, that’s almost obligatory if inspiration is to play a part. But a lyric sung over a riff in a melody that works for that line alone (or for individual lines at a time) does not constitute a song.

There’s nothing wrong with a riff or musical composition that isn’t a song. If it works, it works, but it’s a different approach, more akin to arrangement. Songs are more to do with creative writing skills than the music for its own sake. Composers often show a bias towards melody and arrangement at the expense of lyrics and song structure. Translate a few operas and you’ll see what I mean! The foreign language often hides a lot of sins.

Sometimes the song is dictated by the structure already placed there by the lyric writer. Elton John didn't write those fine early songs, Bernie Taupin did, they were his songs in essence and substance. Elton did a marvellous job of drawing the music out of the words and structure, working like a sculptor who says that he can already see the figure in the stone before he begins. It's a particular kind of talent, but it isn't song-writing, it's being a tunesmith, secondary to the writer.
 
Your attempt to disassociate what you term "riff-based compositions" from "songs" is unorthodox, to say the least. Considering that many of the songs that Zeppelin played were in the blues form ("Whole Lotta Love" included, derived from a song written by Willie Dixon), it is usual that the riff comes first, and then the lyrics follow in a standard blues format. Are you saying that the blues genre does not contain songs?
 
Conversely, you sound contradictory by relegating Elton John to a mere "tunesmith". I suppose you could say the same for Ira and George Gershwin, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Burt Bacharach and Hal David, or Carole King and Gerry Goffin.
 
Your logic leaves something to be desired.


-------------
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 17:32
Doesn't it depend on your definition of a song? According to this, any musical composition is a song, Led Zeppelin or otherwise. Although I don't think the person is saying non-songs are inferior to songs.

Noun:

songs, plural

  1. A short poem or other set of words set to music or meant to be sung

    • Singing or vocal music
      • - the young airmen broke into song

    • A musical composition suggestive of a song

      • The musical phrases uttered by some birds, whales, and insects, typically forming a recognizable and repeated sequence and used chiefly for territorial defense or for attracting mates

        • A poem, esp. one in rhymed stanzas
          • - The Song of Hiawatha

        • Poetry


        Posted By: giselle
        Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 17:43
        Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

        Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

        There is a difference between ‘riff-based’ and a song with a riff. “I Can’t Get No” is a song. “Whole Lotta Love” isn’t. A song isn’t so much about verse-chorus etc, it can be whatever it is, the stricture is to do with tradition and writing form, much the same as in the best formal poetry. That’s not to say that rules can’t be broken, or more accurately, challenged. As Rick Wakeman said so accurately, you have to know what to do so you can avoid doing it that way. Indeed, that’s almost obligatory if inspiration is to play a part. But a lyric sung over a riff in a melody that works for that line alone (or for individual lines at a time) does not constitute a song.

        There’s nothing wrong with a riff or musical composition that isn’t a song. If it works, it works, but it’s a different approach, more akin to arrangement. Songs are more to do with creative writing skills than the music for its own sake. Composers often show a bias towards melody and arrangement at the expense of lyrics and song structure. Translate a few operas and you’ll see what I mean! The foreign language often hides a lot of sins.

        Sometimes the song is dictated by the structure already placed there by the lyric writer. Elton John didn't write those fine early songs, Bernie Taupin did, they were his songs in essence and substance. Elton did a marvellous job of drawing the music out of the words and structure, working like a sculptor who says that he can already see the figure in the stone before he begins. It's a particular kind of talent, but it isn't song-writing, it's being a tunesmith, secondary to the writer.
         
        Your attempt to disassociate what you term "riff-based compositions" from "songs" is unorthodox, to say the least. Considering that many of the songs that Zeppelin played were in the blues form ("Whole Lotta Love" included, derived from a song written by Willie Dixon), it is usual that the riff comes first, and then the lyrics follow in a standard blues format. Are you saying that the blues genre does not contain songs?
         
        Conversely, you sound contradictory by relegating Elton John to a mere "tunesmith". I suppose you could say the same for Ira and George Gershwin, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Burt Bacharach and Hal David, or Carole King and Gerry Goffin.
         
        Your logic leaves something to be desired.
         
        No, it's your logic that doesn't work, you're not applying it properly, and in saying that disassociating riff structures from songs is unorthodox, you are demonstrating that you can't see the wood for the trees. Of course there are blues songs, but the ones you mention aren't them. It's usual that the riff comes first and last in those.
         
        There's nothing contradictory about Elton John being able to derive melodies from a song already written, it's obviously a completely different gift from being a song-writer, and it's not detrimental to the 'tunesmith' either - that's his/her talent.  And yes, the same applies to such partnerships, however marvellously they work.


        Posted By: The Dark Elf
        Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 18:03
        Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

        Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

        Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

        There is a difference between ‘riff-based’ and a song with a riff. “I Can’t Get No” is a song. “Whole Lotta Love” isn’t. A song isn’t so much about verse-chorus etc, it can be whatever it is, the stricture is to do with tradition and writing form, much the same as in the best formal poetry. That’s not to say that rules can’t be broken, or more accurately, challenged. As Rick Wakeman said so accurately, you have to know what to do so you can avoid doing it that way. Indeed, that’s almost obligatory if inspiration is to play a part. But a lyric sung over a riff in a melody that works for that line alone (or for individual lines at a time) does not constitute a song.

        There’s nothing wrong with a riff or musical composition that isn’t a song. If it works, it works, but it’s a different approach, more akin to arrangement. Songs are more to do with creative writing skills than the music for its own sake. Composers often show a bias towards melody and arrangement at the expense of lyrics and song structure. Translate a few operas and you’ll see what I mean! The foreign language often hides a lot of sins.

        Sometimes the song is dictated by the structure already placed there by the lyric writer. Elton John didn't write those fine early songs, Bernie Taupin did, they were his songs in essence and substance. Elton did a marvellous job of drawing the music out of the words and structure, working like a sculptor who says that he can already see the figure in the stone before he begins. It's a particular kind of talent, but it isn't song-writing, it's being a tunesmith, secondary to the writer.
         
        Your attempt to disassociate what you term "riff-based compositions" from "songs" is unorthodox, to say the least. Considering that many of the songs that Zeppelin played were in the blues form ("Whole Lotta Love" included, derived from a song written by Willie Dixon), it is usual that the riff comes first, and then the lyrics follow in a standard blues format. Are you saying that the blues genre does not contain songs?
         
        Conversely, you sound contradictory by relegating Elton John to a mere "tunesmith". I suppose you could say the same for Ira and George Gershwin, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Burt Bacharach and Hal David, or Carole King and Gerry Goffin.
         
        Your logic leaves something to be desired.
         
        No, it's your logic that doesn't work, you're not applying it properly, and in saying that disassociating riff structures from songs is unorthodox, you are demonstrating that you can't see the wood for the trees. Of course there are blues songs, but the ones you mention aren't them. It's usual that the riff comes first and last in those.
         
        There's nothing contradictory about Elton John being able to derive melodies from a song already written, it's obviously a completely different gift from being a song-writer, and it's not detrimental to the 'tunesmith' either - that's his/her talent.  And yes, the same applies to such partnerships, however marvellously they work.
        I'm sorry, but you made a blanket statement:
         
        Quote Led Zeppelin were not bona fide songwriters; their forte was creating riff structures with lyrics thrown on top.
         
        That simply isn't true, particulary when you added the opinionated and utterly biased: 
         
        Quote They did at times manage to write some songs, albeit rather rudimentary and uninspirational
         
        Please explain to me how a song like "Thank You", "The Battle of Evermore", "No Quarter", "Over the Hills and Far Away", "In the Light", and so many other songs -- which are not "riff-based compositions" -- are "rudimentary and uninspirational"? That's an opinion, not a fact, and certainly an opinion I don't share.
         
        As far as "whole Lotta Love", I've played blues for decades, and I hear a blues tune with some extraneous psychedelia thrown in the middle. I don't know what you're listening to.


        -------------
        ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
        to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


        Posted By: giselle
        Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 19:55
        Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

        Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

        Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

        Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

        I'm sorry, but you made a blanket statement:
         

        Unless I could discuss every song every recorded, I don’t see what other kind of statement I could make.

        [quote]Led Zeppelin were not bona fide songwriters; their forte was creating riff structures with lyrics thrown on top.
         
        That simply isn't true, particulary when you added the opinionated and utterly biased: 
         
        [quote]They did at times manage to write some songs, albeit rather rudimentary and uninspirational
         

        It simply isn’t true in your terms, but true in mine.

         
        Please explain to me how a song like "Thank You", "The Battle of Evermore", "No Quarter", "Over the Hills and Far Away", "In the Light", and so many other songs -- which are not "riff-based compositions" -- are "rudimentary and uninspirational"? That's an opinion, not a fact, and certainly an opinion I don't share.
         

        It’s fine that you don’t share that opinion, that’s your prerogative, but your opinion isn’t a fact either, it’s merely your opinion as mine is mine.

         
        As far as "whole Lotta Love", I've played blues for decades, and I hear a blues tune with some extraneous psychedelia thrown in the middle. I don't know what you're listening to.

        Playing blues for decades makes no difference whatsoever to what you hear or don’t hear, it’s simply what you think you hear which is entirely different to what I hear. That would mean neither of us would know what the other is listening to.  Each is entitled to their opinion, however wrong we consider the other person to be.



        Posted By: Alitare
        Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 20:12
        Like any of this f**king matters. It's a song! No it isn't! Are we not songs?! We are DEBO! uh.... DEVO! 


        Posted By: The Dark Elf
        Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 21:13
        Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

        Playing blues for decades makes no difference whatsoever to what you hear or don’t hear, it’s simply what you think you hear which is entirely different to what I hear. That would mean neither of us would know what the other is listening to.  Each is entitled to their opinion, however wrong we consider the other person to be.

        Hogwash. It does make a difference, because you don't know what you're talking about. Here's a version of the same song by Joe Louis Walker and James Cotton (the great blues harpist from Muddy Water's band). Please notice the recurring riff throughout the entire song, just like in the Zeppelin adaptation. The only difference is this one's done in the traditional style, rather than with heavy electrics:
         
         
        I can rattle off another hundred blues songs with the same recurring motif, without a turnaround. In fact, here's one of the greatest, Muddy Water's  "Mannish Boy", which is even simpler than the Zeppelin riff:
         
         
         


        -------------
        ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
        to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...


        Posted By: Pastor Rex Cat
        Date Posted: May 30 2011 at 23:00
        Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

        Ok so its not the worst Led Zep song.  Its the one I can no longer listen to.  Stairway to effing Heaven .  Drives me mad. 
         
         
         
        I Agree! To me, that one's been played to death.
        If there's anyone who never tires of this song, that person has an advantage over me.


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        Greetings! And Welcome to The Global Internet Church of Prog!
        Hail the Prog and Praise "Bob"!


        Posted By: giselle
        Date Posted: May 31 2011 at 01:36
        Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

        Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

        Playing blues for decades makes no difference whatsoever to what you hear or don’t hear, it’s simply what you think you hear which is entirely different to what I hear. That would mean neither of us would know what the other is listening to.  Each is entitled to their opinion, however wrong we consider the other person to be.

        Hogwash. It does make a difference, because you don't know what you're talking about. Here's a version of the same song by Joe Louis Walker and James Cotton (the great blues harpist from Muddy Water's band). Please notice the recurring riff throughout the entire song, just like in the Zeppelin adaptation. The only difference is this one's done in the traditional style, rather than with heavy electrics:
         
         
        I can rattle off another hundred blues songs with the same recurring motif, without a turnaround. In fact, here's one of the greatest, Muddy Water's  "Mannish Boy", which is even simpler than the Zeppelin riff:
         
         
         
         
        Ah, now we are getting to the real issue - your opinion is the only one that counts. Now that really is hogwash.


        Posted By: Alitare
        Date Posted: May 31 2011 at 01:47
        Stop ruining such a pure and uplifting poll with the arguing! I wanted so badly for us to work together against the common enemy. Don't make me cry...  Cry



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