Thoughts on my taste?

dfle3 wrote: Why would you consider Television to be prog? I heard of them in the context of punk music. To me, they don't see punk at all. They've also been described as post-punk...ironic, given that IF they were a punk band, their debut would be one of the FIRST punk albums...so, the irony is in being post-punk at the birth of punk! If I was to guess what genre they were, I'd say art-rock. I came up with my own term..."bohemian rock"...I'd put Patti Smith in that category too. It seems to me that they get labelled "punk" because - I'm guessing - they played with Ramones at CBGBs. By that logic, IF Barbra Streisand had played CBGBs in the time of the Ramones, she'd be labelled "The Godmother of punk"!

I think the Velvet Underground have a case as a Proto-Prog band although they've been suggested (unsuccessfully) on six previous occasions; if you're interested in any of those discussions I'll post links here. John Cale is already on ProgArchives as a Prog Related artist, while the VU themselves were definitely ahead of their time and a major influence on Krautrock with their raw, hypnotic, trance-like drones. The artistic pop and avant-garde improvisation of the Nico album was a major influence on the likes of Roxy Music (in Crossover here). Talking about his main musical influences, Bryan Ferry is on record as saying that: ‘I’d probably say the Velvet Underground because they represented a kind of art interest I had.’ Then there’s the primitivism of ‘White Light/White Heat’, and the near 18 minutes of white noise on ‘Sister Ray’. Throw in the pop art album covers and the extreme, nihilistic lyrics that deal with taboo subjects… 

dfle3 wrote:  Curious how you know of Midnight Oil...Gazzardian mentioned them too...wondering if they are Australian as a result. What albums by them have you heard of? "Red sails in the sunset" is a great album, and I think if any album by them was to appeal to prog fans, that would be it (people who like rootsy albums might like "Place without a postcard"...which isn't a fave of mine, but it's not without interest). Their greatest albums are commercial FM staples...whatever one of the most played acts where you live is, Midnight Oil would be the equivalent here...loads of songs played, often, from various albums.

Midnight Oil – I’ve only heard that song ‘Beds are Burning’ that Stephen mentioned, but I’ll be checking out more of their stuff.

TheGazzardian

So, you Australian? You've heard a Hell of a lot of the Oils, in any case. I don't think I've heard anything after D&D...that album is in my top 5 albums of all time...along with 10 - 1. Generally I tend to regard songs outside of the big 4 on 10-1 as forgettable...but when some years ago I took that record out for another spin, they weren't entirely disposable. Wouldn't strike me as prog though..."Read about it" sounds like a grunge song...every bit as good as "Smells like teen spirit" in my view...well, in the same league in any case. In case you're wondering how I have 10-1 in my top 5 albums of all time yet find the non big 4 songs forgettable...just imagine that your favourite artist released an album with what would turn out to be four of their greatest songs ever...even if the rest of the album was forgettable, you'd still highly rate the album, yeah? D&D is a stronger album...no really forgettable songs and lots of good ones. Red Sails just seems really arty...I like the atmospheric track like Harrisburg and Jimmy Sharman's Boxers. You don't have Bird Noises in your list...I rate that a better EP than Species Deceases..."Wedding Cake Island" is a fave of mine...an instrumental...a la The Shadows...surprisingly, this track has recently been getting airplay on one or two stations with a classic element to their format...here's the You Tube:



Years ago a staff guy at a chain store said that "Earth and sun and moon" was the Oils greatest album...dunno...doesn't get radio play here. Haven't really been tempted to check out their post Blue Sky Mining albums (I have that album...it's good).

Might be tempted to check out their first two albums...just as curios. They might have had some recognition from hipster/indie stations for those albums, but it's really 10-1 which made their name..might top more than one Greatest Australian Album Of All Time poll. There might be a song off of one of those first two albums which also very rarely gets played on mainstream station with a classic rock element to their format...though I don't think that the song is a bona fide classic...just stations going beyond the usual...which in recent years has been 10-1's "Power and the passion"...that's got my favourite drum solo of all time...but it's been flogged a lot, by various stations.

re Pink Floyd as questionable re prog...I can see that point of view.  If they are, then they're the Spice Girls of prog (hey, let's not fight!).

Dean

Assumption:

"the words in Wikipedia that you seem to hold so reverently".

Some people assume I hold Rolling Stone in the highest esteem because I mentioned them...in the context of someone here saying that prog albums are critically and commercially acclaimed/successful...Rolling Stone would be, in my opinion, one of THE major  sources of criticism if you are going to claim that prog is critically acclaimed. But hey, if you want to assume that I revere Rolling Stone...

"I only mentioned it because you implied that ELO were a Progressive Rock band period (because Wikipedia tags them as such - as in your "example")"

I actually suggested ELO were arguable progressive for their orchestral arrangements...and found some support from Wikipedia...and Wikipedia is a peer reviewed site, so would presumably carry more weight than just my opinion. So, I just find it acceptable (maybe more so than Wikipedia) to regard ELO as progressive...but veering into very commercial prog...so, unless you find that an oxymoron (commercial prog), I think it has some plausibility. The issue I raised about their 4th album, I believe, was where you draw the line between prog and art rock.

re labelling...tongue in cheek, it seems to me that "prog" is a useful umbrella term that acts that play both kinds of music (within an album and within a song)...

1) sleepy music
2) jazzy music

It seems to me that people here are over eager to exclude anything popular or commercial from the term "prog"...like ELOs hit laden albums.

re Proust...the purpose of the person mentioning it was to argue that just as WE can ALL AGREE that Proust IS a greater author than Dan Brown, so to MY taste in music is SUPERIOR to what you think is great...it's science!

seventhsojourn

"perhaps I should have said progressive rather than prog"

Oh God. They're something different? More bloody homework! What's wrong with my "sleepy" /"jazzy" distinction? Can't we just all use that instead? Less confusing, yeah?

re VU...I tend to find them easy listening...but with edgy lyrics...not sure I'd see them as being prog in the kind of sense that people here would use that term...I love "The murder mystery"...it's arty...and I don't really hear 'real' prog bands doing that kind of thing.

I was expecting more guff and trolling...dreading that...gets boring quickly...can't let this slide though:

thellama73

"See? He doesn't like Trout Mask. Ludicrous! "

It's that kind of attitude that really bugs me...it says:

We ALL KNOW that "Trout mask replica" is a GREAT album.

Yuh. 'we' 'all' 'know' that.

It's exclusionary...the people who say this seem to believe that them liking that album (or whatever album) marks them out as being some sort of genius...only they, with their rare brilliance, can see the unparalleled  genius of that album and only an idiot would disagree. Yuh.

One last Midnight Oil song off of Red Sails...I find this a really beautiful track...with the horn (not sure if the live version has it...oh it does)...can't find a studio version...only a live version, with a long chat intro:

dfle3 your response to llama...please please tell me you were making a counter joke to his....

I give you credit though, this may be the worst thread I've seen because you are indeed 100% serious.
So congrats with that.

Mr "Not Given" does seem to be a hit-and-run poster.

Dean wrote: Not an assumption but an observation based upon what you posted in regard to ELO

Well, I'd say you're making an assumption by using the phrase "reverently". It's sarcastic in tone. You've gone beyond making observations to making assumptions...like Henry's original comment here that anyone who disagrees with their exalted opinion must be a troll. That kind of comment is intended to make their opinion REALLY important...has the opposite effect on me, to tell you the truth.

And others here are still being sarcastic...

JJLehto wrote: I give you credit though, this may be the worst thread I've seen because you are indeed 100% serious. So congrats with that.

Yuh...like that's supposed to make me think that your opinion is soooo much better than mine. Good onya...make people feel silly for their taste in music...coz your opinion is soooo impressive. That's me being sarcastic, in case you missed it.

Dean wrote:   In 1969/70 Miles Davis recorded "In A Silent Way" and "Bitches Brew" - which are regarded as landmarks of Jazz-Rock/Fusion, hence their inclusion in this site. Since we categorise albums by "Artist" adding those albums meant adding Miles Davis and his entire discography. We cannot dictate which albums people must review and rate (any more than rym can or does), so if they wish to rate "Kind Of Blue" there is little we can do about it, the same would be true if people rated Genesis's 80s Pop Rock albums highly.   The top-100 lists are algorithmically calculated from the ratings of all albums in the database and by all members who review said albums - we cannot be selective on which albums to include or exclude, however, we do exclude Proto Prog and Prog Related in the list on the Front Page because by definition, those are not Prog.

You have a list of on this site which purports to be the top 100 prog albums of all time as voted by people on this site. It's not. At least 1% of is inaccurate. I can't do your work for you.  You're basically saying that "Bitches brew" is a suitable album for your top 100 list. But it's not that popular. An album which is NOT eligible for your list "Kind of blue" IS in your list. It just seems common sense to me to remove ineligible albums from your list...do you know of sites which actually rank actual prog albums? I'd be interested in that list. I'm guessing that the figure of 1% not actually being prog albums in your list is a LOT less than it actually IS in reality.

If you're saying that you exclude proto-prog and prog related albums from your list of top 100 prog albums, then presumably you can also include Kind Of Blue. I asked the question before, and it was unanswered...does Kind Of Blue pad out your list (making up the numbers) or does it make your list seem more impressive?

Dean wrote: The Top-100 list is customisable if you go to the Top Prog Albums page and only select the subgenre's you are interested in, so if you wish to construct a personalised Top-100 that excludes JR/F that is possible

The relevant point is why YOU/YOUR site doesn't do this...why leave it up to ME? As your top 100 stands right now, it's about as valid as my own list...but I don't count jazz albums in my list...coz including them would be silly...to each their own, I suppose.

re E.L.O...my point is that albums which Wiki describes as prog and the last one I looked at which was described as "art" rock have songs on them that are very much of the famous examples of pop which they are known for. In fact  earlier albums may also be tagged "art rock".  Which raises the question "What is the difference between art rock and progressive rock?".

I can't really say that "progressive rock" is a useful term...it encompasses everything from sleepy nu-classical music to jazzy rock...two distinct kinds of music..."fusion" seems a better term than "prog" to me.

re quarter points in my reviews...you don't see much difference between 7.75/10 and 8/10? "8" is slightly higher than "7.75", so it's a slightly better album. I'd feel I was getting silly if I went beyond quarter points...like the difference between 7.25 and 7.253219. The latter figure might sound highly scientific but it would be meaningless. You seem to be suggesting that I rate most albums in whole or half numbers? On your site that seems I'd have to rate as equal albums that I would score as 6/10, 7/10 etc. My system's not perfect but it does allow for thinking one album slightly better than another...without getting silly.

re Proust...I don't have  a chip on my shoudler...it's not about me...it's about someone claiming that you can be objective/scientific in ranking albums...now that's silly...like I'm supposed to be impressed that someone luuuurves Trout Mask.

But thanks for all the good pointers in this thread for being pretentious...ahem...

You know, as someone who has read everything Proust has ever written - 5 to 7 times -, I've discovered that Genesis' debut is ACTUALLY their best.

You'd be making an assumption by believing that I wouldn't hold any of your opinions to ridicule...I just don't go around, like an emperor with no clothes, parading my superior taste as a non-existent garb.

P.S. have no idea who "Not given" are "Stephen", who you mentioned in an earlier post re your site's top 100...couldn't find it amongst the guff perhaps?

Be cool to get some actual opinions on music as opposed to this whole...'my opinion is the best' kind of attitude.

Apparently some of it's meant to be a joke...like Snow Dog's ripsnorter?

Lastly...I'm not a geek, but if your site can't give a list of the top 100 prog albums as voted by your members, which features actual prog albums, then I'd suggest finding someone good at creating website content...it's hard to believe that you couldn't actually remove "Kind of blue" without the sky falling down.

I was not being sarcastic in the slightest. This is honestly the worst thread I've ever seen. Considering how many I've seen that was an honest congratulations.

And trust me, it has nothing to do with your musical tastes. I was about to say what it was about, but it would involve going into probable suspension territory for what I was thinking about saying!

I didn't even mention my opinions on music v. yours in that post.
Oh and I did miss the sarcasm, thanks for letting me know. Greatly appreciated

Determined troll is determined

Snow Dog wrote: @Dean.  I think you are just banging your head against a wall Dean. Evertything to be said has been said. Why are you wasting your time?

In this moment I am a Peruvian with an English accent.

I'm sure he'll give up eventually. Though will the victory have been worth 8 pages?

dfle3 wrote: JJLehto wrote: I give you credit though, this may be the worst thread I've seen because you are indeed 100% serious. So congrats with that. Yuh...like that's supposed to make me think that your opinion is soooo much better than mine. Good onya...make people feel silly for their taste in music...coz your opinion is soooo impressive. That's me being sarcastic, in case you missed it.

Don't listen to people like JJ. They're just trying to troll you. There's nothing wrong with your tastes.