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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 09:56

The "saltiness" of salt is empiric as well.

Of course when i say a tube is two or four times better than class A transistor, it's an aproximation, like two times more salty.
It can't be measured because we don't have the apropriate tools/criterias for that.

You can quantify dynamic, signal/noise ratio but i'll tell almost nothing if nothing at all about the ability of a given device to "make music".

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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 10:07
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


The "saltiness" of salt is empiric as well.

Of course when i say a tube is two or four times better than class A transistor, it's an aproximation, like two times more salty.
It can't be measured because we don't have the apropriate tools/criterias for that.

You can quantify dynamic, signal/noise ratio but i'll tell almost nothing if nothing at all about the ability of a given device to "make music".

This is getting pointless and silly. If you use cardinal numbers as a measure of something then you have quantified it - if you say a Class A valve amplifier is two or four times better than a Class A transistor amplifier then you have placed quantified measures on that. Empiric means "by observation or experiment" as opposed to "by calculation or theory" - using theory you can predict the gain and bandwidth of the class A amplifier, with extremely careful modelling you could predict other factors about it - or you can empirically measure them. No matter how well to calculate or predict something, you can only prove it with empirical measurement. Goodness is not an empirical measurment.
 
The information you are talking about cannot be measured or predicted - they are feelings, perceptions and preferances, and those cannot be quantified. You cannot say a valve amplifier is two times better than, or twice as good as, a transistor amplifier, it is complete nonsense.


Edited by Dean - March 03 2011 at 10:08
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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 11:30
To give you an image, it's like saying PF is two times better than
Britney Spears...
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Points: 17847 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 11:52
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

I'd like to add that there are solid state which sound "colored" as well.
And coloration and musicality are two very different notions.
We audiophiles are looking for the most neutral devices so we don't have to compensate this by that. But it has to be musical as well.

On another hand, some devices are lighlty colored but still highly desirable as they're extremely musical. Like the legendary tube tuner Marantz 10B which is the absolute best tuner ever because there's no other tuner doing so sweet music. For example teh tuner Goldmund Mimesis
IV (solid state) goes further on hifi criterias (it's the Ferrari of tuner) and it's one of the very best sources on earth (and it costed
10 000 euros when first released) but it's not as musical as the Marantz.

All that to say that figures don't tell much, if nothing about the result.
 
All these descriptions of personal feelings or choice, kinda feels like I am reading a customer review, which is fine, but oliver you quote a lot of different manufactures of amps, tube/valve, HP amps.....Have you actually owned all these different name brands or are you a hi-fi equipment seller, distributor? I just wonder cause I have never heard a tube amp in person nor met anyone who had one, so I only have what I read to go by.
I hope to one day hear one in action.....I doubt I will buy one as they are sold thru 2-step online stores and I don't fancy paying US$5,000.00 for a tube amp.
 
What Dean describes to me in several posts makes sense to seriously look at non valve amps......a glowing glass bottle is pretty but will I really hear the difference between a US$3,000 amp by Jolida and a US$1,000 amp by NAD?
 
My search continues....Thanks gentleman!
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:26
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

To give you an image, it's like saying PF is two times better than
Britney Spears...

Which is just about as silly and really drives Dean's point home.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:26
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

To give you an image, it's like saying PF is two times better than
Britney Spears...
That is meaningless, erroneous and in every respect misleading. If you prefer PF to Britney then you can say you say you like them better, but you cannot say they are better by any countable units of betterness. You cannot say that valve amplifier is twice as good as a transistor amplifier, that is nonsense. However, you can say you prefer valve amplifiers or you like them better - that is personal preference and nothing that you can empirically quantify to justify to another audiophile, hi-fi freak or anyone who is just mildly interested in audio equipment. It's like when you use "musical" as an adjective - what do you actually mean by that? If a set of interconnects or an amp is more "musical" in the mids and highs what does that mean exactly, in terms that everyone here can understand? Does that mean that if I play something discordant and dissonant like Faust or Stockhausen it will now sound more lyrical and melodic like Barclay James Harvest? No- of course it doesn't. So what does it mean? Geek
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:29
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:


What Dean describes to me in several posts makes sense to seriously look at non valve amps......a glowing glass bottle is pretty but will I really hear the difference between a US$3,000 amp by Jolida and a US$1,000 amp by NAD?
 
My search continues....Thanks gentleman!

Chances are that if you really spend the $3,000 on the Jolida amp, it might end up sounding just about 3 times better than the $1,000 amp ... subjectively. 

It doesn't have to be that way though - I'm listening to music on my 80 EUR Logitech X-530 all the time, and I'm never thinking "OMG this sounds 12 times worse than a 1,000 EUR amp and speakers". Because it doesn't. Smile
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Points: 17847 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:45
^ ... ohhh come on now yes it does........LOL
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Hawkwise View Drop Down
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Points: 4119 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:52
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Whoever mentioned Bose in a hifi thread... Fail
  LOL but true
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:58
I bought a cheap "hong kong" valve amp from ebay (I've just noticed it is now three times more than I paid for it a year ago) with the idea of tweeking it to make it sound better (the circuit is based on a 50 year old Mullard design) - the modern Chinese version it looks terrible, but despite the cheap components, rubbish build quality and indifferent output transformers, it sounds quite nice and I haven't felt the need to modify it yet. It's spec'd at 15W per channel, but that's optimistic to say the least - the EL84s in the config used (AB1 push-pull) are 10W at best - I use it as my PC amp to drive a pair of small Kef speakers I picked up cheap. It's fun, it works, but it isn't HiFi.

Edited by Dean - March 03 2011 at 13:15
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 13:49
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

^ ... ohhh come on now yes it does........LOL

Of course it can work both ways ... the fact that I bought the 80 EUR gear means that I could be biased towards it, thinking that it sounds better than it actually does. 

Well, let's put it this way: I know that my 80 EUR system sounds worse than a big hi-fi system. But I also have quite some experience with other low-cost systems, and I can switch back and forth between that and the hi-fi I have in the room, then I can listen to something on the hi-fi with AKG headphones. When I do that, I realize that these 80 EUR speakers sound much, much better than you would guess by looking at the price tag.


The point of posting this in an audiophile/hi-fi thread is that too many people are being duped into thinking that they need to spend 1,000+ EUR/USD in order to get a good listening experience. And when they get an expensive system, they start to fancy even more expensive systems ... a vicious circle indeed. 

IMO the best strategy is to look for gear that offers excellent quality at an affordable price. Smile
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Points: 17847 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 14:41
^ Exactly!!! Clap
 
So those of you trashing me for owning a Bose speaker system...bite me! My ears tell me they sound great and they still do after almost 20yrs. That's why I need to find a store where I can go hear a NAD amp or same type quality before I plop down $1000, knowing that I also want new speakers.........
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Points: 4119 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 15:08
My Humble system for not  to much  money and sounds great does what i need and that's play music !!

http://www.rega.co.uk/html/p2.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Denon-DRA-397-Source-Receiver-Audiophile/dp/B000HD5FWI

http://www.celestion.com/products/fseries/f30.html

http://nadelectronics.com/products/cd-players/C-545BEE-CD-Player
 

 There Really is no need to spend large amounts of money to get a good sound for your music, unless of course you got lot's Money to spare then who wouldn't   . 
 

oh edit , the Nad i was lucky and got in a sale for Half  Price otherwise don't think i would be paying that much Money for a Cd Player  , shore there cheaper alternatives out there do just a good  job.

Edited by Hawkwise - March 03 2011 at 15:25
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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2011 at 03:51
Of course, some may prefer the taste of cardboard-box first price wine over a grand cru. Each one to his taste!
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2011 at 04:39

LOL 

 
 
Audio equipment is now likened to fermented grape juice Ermm since both are laced with hyperbole and superlatives I guess it holds some value. Tongue
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Hawkwise View Drop Down
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Points: 4119 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2011 at 06:06
I Have listen to hi fi which  cost 5 times more than my humble little system and the difference is very slight  if any at all to my ears , and i prefer a nice Real Ale myself Beer
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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2011 at 06:44
Originally posted by Hawkwise Hawkwise wrote:

I Have listen to hi fi which  cost 5 times more than my humble little system and the difference is very slight  if any at all to my ears , and i prefer a nice Real Ale myself Beer


Price means nothing at all. Very few systems are working because very few know how to make a system work.

Edited by oliverstoned - March 04 2011 at 06:46
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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2011 at 06:46
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

LOL 


 

 

Audio equipment is now likened to fermented grape juice Ermm since both are laced with hyperbole and superlatives I guess it holds some value. Tongue



You prefer a comparison with coca cola or another soda of your choice?
Maybe it'll speak to you better?
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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2011 at 06:59
Building a good sytem is both simple and complicated.

First you have to have only musical components which is not that simple knowing the profusion of brands but i'm here to help for that.

Then you have to optimize your system on three levels:

- A minimum of quality cables (interconnect and speakers cable's, in biwire mode or double cable if possible).

- Work on power: rspect power phase, installation of dedicated power lines, at least the CD (if CD there is)must be separated from the rest. Good power cables are needed as we live in very polluted places (waves). The next step is to add good power filters (not easy to find, but what an improvment).

- Work on vibration control: quality furniture, accessories to place under the components which affect dramatically the device's performance.
Stands or furniture filled with sand, weights on subwoofers...


It's just a rough idea of the improvments necessary to make a system work a minimum and that's why it's very rare to hear something making music. But it exists and it's not at all a matter of price.

Nothing is easy
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Hawkwise View Drop Down
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Points: 4119 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2011 at 07:11
I dont listen to HI FI i listen to Music 
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