thoughts on the Holocaust - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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harmonium.ro View Drop Down

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:06

Splendid detective work, Tony. Good to see the intuition of our members was correct. I agree with Ben (and whoever also said it, I didn't read the whole thread) that questioning historiographic discourse isn't negationism, but is a movement inside the discipline of historiography which actually fortified it. Negationism is a completely different story... and I'm glad people are able to spot a negationist posing as a decent member of the community.

Also, Neo-Nazis can be proggers? Ermm

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:17

Tony R wrote:

White Supremacy, yeah!!!

Oh the irony. White people aren't really white and neither are The Supremes. Tongue

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Padraic

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:19

I'm starting to wonder if on doing searches for "holocaust" he discovered this thread, and joined simply to promulgate his filth. I did see him post some things that were actually music related, but anyways.

Tony R

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:21

Padraic wrote:

I'm starting to wonder if on doing searches for "holocaust" he discovered this thread, and joined simply to promulgate his filth. I did see him post some things that were actually music related, but anyways.

He will have done a search and as Progarchives features quite high on Google lists he will have found us.

harmonium.ro View Drop Down

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:25

Googling "thoughts on the Holocaust" shows PA down on page 13 of results, he actually was a progger.

Tony R

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:40

harmonium.ro wrote:

Googling "thoughts on the Holocaust" shows PA down on page 13 of results, he actually was a progger.

Ok, I will restore his membership and make him a Collaborator.

The T

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:40

To be honest, he was an idiot and again I support the Admin team making the decisions they think are the best for PA, but he being an Holocaust denier, as stupid and against-evidence as it can be, doesn't make him a criminal or something. Maybe just a deluded person.

Sorry to digress. I've always disliked thought-police.

Padraic

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:42

The T wrote:

To be honest, he was an idiot and again I support the Admin team making the decisions they think are the best for PA, but he being an Holocaust denier, as stupid and against-evidence as it can be, doesn't make him a criminal or something. Maybe just a deluded person.

Sorry to digress. I've always disliked thought-police.

If I owned this website I would have a "no Nazis" policy too. Just sayin'.

The T

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:42

Tony R wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

Googling "thoughts on the Holocaust" shows PA down on page 13 of results, he actually was a progger.

Ok, I will restore his membership and make him a Collaborator.

You could do the first and tell him "start propagating racism and you're out you idiot".

The T

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:43

Padraic wrote:

Sorry to digress. I've always disliked thought-police.

If I owned this website I would have a "no Nazis" policy too. Just sayin'.

I would have a "No offending your fellow members" policy for sure.

But it's not our website so let's Clap

that people want to keep it working as the owners want it to work. And let's enjoy it for what it is. Smile

The T

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:44

Slartibartfast wrote:

Tony R wrote:

White Supremacy, yeah!!!

Oh the irony. White people aren't really white and neither are The Supremes. Tongue

Just as black people aren't really black... There are no pure colors... Well except The Blue Man Group.... Tongue

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:47

Negoba wrote:

The T wrote:

Padraic wrote:

The T wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

Negoba wrote:

If T or Rob or llama or even me wants to spout their opinions it's ok because they've actually listened to Coyote all the way through.

I haven't. Confused

Neither have I Confused

What are you guys waiting for Stern Smile

Someone to give me an amazon gift card or something for some special event or date. I'm quite decided not to throw my money away in rock albums if I'm not 100% sure I'll find something I like. I've been buying albums off the top 10 PA list every year and usually they end up abandoned and even traded. This year, though, I have hopes for Coyote and Agalloch. I'll get them eventually. And then I'll have a clear view of the Holocaust. Tongue

A live version of Coyote can be streamed live, it's one of H.ro's listen to the music of today threads.

Teo, it's better than BLD by quite a bit IMO. Given your storied history with the band, can't imagine you not hearing it.

And until you to listen, you can no longer have an opinion about anything.

DAWCT was an atrocity. BLD was a great alum if not something I have listened many many many times since. I feel Coyote might be an aural holocaust for me. But I'll give it try... It's strange that such a fan of Genesis, melodists like few, likes Kayo Dot... Wink

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:56

Tony R wrote:

He will have done a search and as Progarchives features quite high on Google lists he will have found us.

Admirable detective work, sir, I give you much credit.

It is interesting, from a psychological perspective, how the poster chose the name "Blue Effect" for his pseudonym. I will grant you that there is a Czech prog-band named "Blue Effect", but I had never heard of them until I read this thread. Needless to say, as I have been listening to progressive rock in the U.S. since the early 70s, I have come across many obscure French, German and Italian prog acts, but not Blue Effect. Don't you find it odd that someone in the States would have not only heard of this band, but esteemed them enough to choose their name as his official title? Just a thought.

Back to the psychological theory I am promulgating. We know now that "Blue Effect" is a Czech prog band, but we also know that "Blue Effect" or "Blue Affect" was "the place [in Auschwitz-Birkenau] , where the items that were taken away from the people who were sent into the gas chambers, were brought." This information can be found here:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/mighty1/mothers/sky8.html

From a pathological point of view, it is very clever on this poster's part to choose a pseudonym that reflects both the subject of this forum (progressive rock) and one that ties in the subject of this thread (the Holocaust). Is this merely coincidence? I think, based on the evidence, that it is obvious the poster has subtley tied in his agenda to the forum subject, and has made random posts regarding music strictly for appearance sake. Like criminals returning to the scene of the crime or mass-murderers retaining tokens of their victims, the poster, amused at his own mendacity, has chosen a name that fits him well, but one that won't necessarily give him away. It is a gamble that many psychopaths willingly take for the sake of their megalomaniacal tendencies.

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

The T

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 12:13

Dark Elf, why do you assume this Blue Effect is a psychopath? I'm quite sure you know what a psychopath is. Have you interviewed him? Have you had therapy with him? You're just as egomaniac as he is, trying to amaze everybody with your full psychological profile of a person you haven't met in your life. Can't you just say "he seemed to be an idiot"?

Negoba

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 12:15

The T wrote:

Negoba wrote:

The T wrote:

Padraic wrote:

The T wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

Negoba wrote:

If T or Rob or llama or even me wants to spout their opinions it's ok because they've actually listened to Coyote all the way through.

I haven't. Confused

Neither have I Confused

What are you guys waiting for Stern Smile

A live version of Coyote can be streamed live, it's one of H.ro's listen to the music of today threads.

Teo, it's better than BLD by quite a bit IMO. Given your storied history with the band, can't imagine you not hearing it.

And until you to listen, you can no longer have an opinion about anything.

Toby Driver is kind of like a accident scene for me. His music repulses me some and attracts me. Overall, I like Maudlin better though.

And Coyote's quite a bit better than BLD for me.

You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.

toroddfuglesteg View Drop Down

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 12:28

There is many, many reasons why people like Allen Rouse turns into becoming a Nazi and Holocaust denier. Or for that matter; a mass murdering KZ camp guard or a convicted liar and fraudster like David Irving. But branding Allen Rouse or any other Nazi as psychopath is cheap and counter productive. This psychopath label absolves Allen Rouse for any blame for what he wrote. "Poor, poor little child".

In the case of Allen Rouse, Google/the internet will brand him as a Nazi and Holocaust denier for the rest of his life. His abilities to get a meaningful job & life is very limited from now on. Enough said.

Edited by toroddfuglesteg - February 24 2011 at 12:38

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 12:45

toroddfuglesteg wrote:

The T wrote:

What about the cambodian genocide?

You know; it really twists my tail feathers when those who called Pol Pot and the Red Khmeer regime visionaries and true democrats when these visitors from Europe and USA walked through the empty capitol Phonm Pen. The city dwellers were working on the land, the visitors was told. The truth was; they were already massacred. Their crimes ? They lived in a city.

Where are these visitors now, well after the Pol Pot's hideous crimes has been exposed to the whole world ? Oh, they are sitting in their offices and is calling the Cambodia genocide the "alledged Cambodia genocide". It was reported by the privately owned media = it must be US/CIA propaganda against progressive, "freedom loving" far lefties. Most of these who visited Pol Pot have good jobs........ but they still puts the whole blame for these "alledged" genocides on CIA.

Holocaust was truly the most hideous crime ever. But there is no excuse whatsoever to still play down or even deny the existence of the Cambodia genocide and the other genocide you, surely by accident have forgotten; the Chinese Cultural revolution.

Those who excuse/denies the Cambodia genocide and the Cultural Revolotion are morally in the same boat as the Holocaust deniers. The evidence is there and every excuse for these crimes = lies and utter lies. These genocide apologists should be exposed, named, shamed and left to rot as the pariahs they are.

Argh !!

Sorry, but these far leftist genocide excusers really gets my tail feathers badly twisted out of shape.

I know a member will jump to the ceiling and make a scandal (he already called me ignorant on another forum because I said this in Prog Archives).

But it's clear, Fascist, Nazis and Extreme Communist regimes have amazing similarities, to the point you can't tell which is which except for the racist nonsense (Well, Chavez and Evo Morales have started to install a communist Nationalist RACIST government in their countries, and are supporting the Ollanta Humala in Perú who in the last elections promised to shot gays and white people).

We've seen how guys like Pol Pot or Stalin, have annihilated every person who came from a determined race (In Cambodia the kids with black inheritance were almost pariahs), while Stalin also killed millions Jewish, Gypsies and other minorities.

Not to talk about Mao, who tried to destroy all traces of other cultures.

Now, reading Mein Kampf, specifically the NASDAP PROGRAMME, I don't know were Hitler ends and Marx starts:

We demand therefore:
11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest
12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits. (expropriation, the first act of every Communist dictator).

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts) (Nationalization is the second step)

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land. (Land reform wow, Castro would be proud)

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law (Every leftist dictator creates a new set of laws to be an eternal President or Prime Minister )

20. The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working German the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the nation of the State (through the study of civic affairs). We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State. (Education is always controlled by Communist dictators, if they control the young, they control everybody)

21. The State must ensure that the nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers and infants, by prohibiting child labor, by promoting physical strength through legislation providing for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and by the extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of youth.

22. We demand the abolition of the mercenary army and the foundation of a people's army. (People's Army...wow. this is a deja vu from the Communist manifesto)

23. (...)

The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national welfare must be forbidden. (Stalin, Castro, Chavez, Morales, etc, etc .) We demand the legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our national life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.(Do you know a communist Government where Press hasn't been the first victim?)

24. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, (Communist Governments also enforce mandatory atheism)

25. To put the whole of this programme into effect, we demand the creeation of a strong central state power for the Reich; the unconditional authority of the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and the formation of Corporations based on estate and occupation for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Reich in the various German states.

God!!! This is exact to what any extreme left Government would do

All extremist are cut with the same scissors, and each one is as bad as the other, the only difference is in the number of killed people

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 24 2011 at 12:48

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 12:55

The T wrote:

Dark Elf, why do you assume this Blue Effect is a psychopath? I'm quite sure you know what a psychopath is. Have you interviewed him? Have you had therapy with him? You're just as egomaniac as he is, trying to amaze everybody with your full psychological profile of a person you haven't met in your life. Can't you just say "he seemed to be an idiot"?

I would say the fallacies he wishes to propogate are idiotic, but I wouldn't refer to him personally as an idiot. On the contrary, he is probably very intelligent but mentally unstable -- and quite dangerous in both his stated beliefs and his deceptive manner of posting.

And I would not deign to "amaze everybody" on this enlightened forum. Just merely stating an opinion on a general discussions thread.

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 13:01

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

toroddfuglesteg wrote:

The T wrote:

What about the cambodian genocide?

Argh !!

Sorry, but these far leftist genocide excusers really gets my tail feathers badly twisted out of shape.

I know a member will jump to the ceiling and make a scandal (he already called me ignorant on another forum because I said this in Prog Archives).

Not to talk about Mao, who tried to destroy all traces of other cultures.

Now, reading Mein Kampf, specifically the NASDAP PROGRAMME, I don't know were Hitler ends and Marx starts:

We demand therefore:
11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts) (Nationalization is the second step)

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises. "Equality" "Wealth redistribution"

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age. "New rights"

22. We demand the abolition of the mercenary army and the foundation of a people's army. (People's Army...wow. this is a deja vu from the Communist manifesto)

23. (...)

24. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, (Communist Governments also enforce mandatory atheism)

God!!! This is exact to what any extreme left Government would do

All extremist are cut with the same scissors, and each one is as bad as the other, the only difference is in the number of killed people Not so much. If you add Hitler's, Mussolini's, and all the victims of fascist dictators in South and Central America, they will match pretty well with the numbers generated by Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Castro, Kim, and African dictators.

Iván

I don't know who could call you ignorant or fanatic for saying the truth. Fascism and communism are brother ideology, totally related. Both require an over-powerful omniscient central planner and both direct economics leaving no room for individual enterprise. Both have "goals" of their own, both have dogma-like characteristics, both have fanatic proponents who despise all middle ground. Both ideologies depend totally on a government that directs every little minor detail in a person's life. One does it for the sake of "the collective", the other one for the sake of "the nation". Both use the idea of the common enemy to incite hate and allegiance to their madness: a different race in fascism, the rich in communism, the ones "against the state" in one, "the bourgeoisie" in the other, AND BOTH HATE CAPITALISM AND THE FREE MARKET.

You have stated something that for any person who has actually read history and politics is a FACT. Both are cults of the State above all.

Edited by The T - February 24 2011 at 13:05

The T

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Posted: February 24 2011 at 13:08

The Dark Elf wrote:

I would say the fallacies he wishes to propogate are idiotic, but I wouldn't refer to him personally as an idiot. It's a manner of speaking. An "idiot" as in a "guy I can't stand". I know he's not mentally challenged. On the contrary, he is probably very intelligent but mentally unstable ??-- and quite dangerous in both his stated beliefs and his deceptive manner of posting.

And perhaps the use of the term "pyschopath" would be too harsh in this instance, as I have not interviewed him; however, he has exhibited psycopathic tendencies here in this thread such as manipulation, rationalization, and a lack of conscience or empathy. Is he suffering or causing other people suffering / distress with his deviances from the norm? If not, he doesn't fit in any realm of abnormal psychology. Perhaps even a bit of pathlogical lying to go with his manipulation. The subtle use of the term "Blue Effect" in almost a double-entendre manner (when all along denying the fact that he was a white supremacist and Holocaust denier -- perhaps even proponent) suggests psychosis. That's quite extreme. You're calling delusional a guy you've never met or talked with.

And I would not deign to "amaze everybody" on this enlightened forum. Just merely stating an opinion on a general discussions thread. Ok. But doing a full psychological profile of someone using a few words in a polemical thread seems to me a little.... overreaching.