Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Libertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedLibertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4344454647 350>
Author
Message
thellama73 View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:51
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Apparently, being libertarian implies a strong affinity towards beer... 



Beer is great. I've been on a bit of a gin kick lately though. I love me some gin.


I wrote my first two novels drunk on gin and beer.  I don't discriminate.  Cool


You've written two novels? So have I! My second one will be out in less than a week.

Are you so libertarian that it doesn't matter if these novels are only read by one individual? Tongue


I am self published and my first novel was read by more than ten individuals, thank you. Tongue

It seems the market wasn't quite ready for it... 

Tongue


You've got to start somewhere. I'm outlining my third one now and I will probably try to get it professionally published.
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:51
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Apparently, being libertarian implies a strong affinity towards beer... 



Beer is great. I've been on a bit of a gin kick lately though. I love me some gin.


I wrote my first two novels drunk on gin and beer.  I don't discriminate.  Cool


You've written two novels? So have I! My second one will be out in less than a week.

Are you so libertarian that it doesn't matter if these novels are only read by one individual? Tongue


I am self published and my first novel was read by more than ten individuals, thank you. Tongue


Neither of my books are published, but I don't mind.  I didn't really try to get them published.  My wife read them, and I wrote them mainly to impress her, so there.

One impressed her and one made her hate me, so there's that.

The first novel I wrote is called Tolerance.  It deals with an alien race among US people.   This alien race is inherently inept and stupid, yet the United States government requires that teachers and other federally-funded entities cater to them and help them thrive, despite the havoc that doing so causes.  Also, the book explores alcoholism.

My second novel is called Atropos Slipped.  It is a romance novel.  My wife loved it.  It was very fun to write.

I have about 5 novels in the works right now that I've started but not finished.

The first one sounds quite attractive. You should publish it or at least send a few copies out there... Tongue


Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32530
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:52
Llama, in the spirit of free trade, I will send you a copy of Refulgence (next Epignosis album) for a good book you wrote.  What say you?
Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:52
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


What's a libertarian nation to do without a proper army? And who does the army represent? In a libertarian country where absolute elimination of the state occurs, frontiers pretty much disappear (at least from our side), massive migration, and there we can have the much dreaded chaos that I think can be avoided with minimal government. Also, if a country where to reach a state of true zero-government, who's to stop foreign foes from coming and pretty much doing what they want? I don't think private forces would be able to manage anything in this case, not economically (they build the arsenal anyway) but from an organizational point of view. That's why I think an army is necessary, an army that represents everybody (not the king president, but the people, the president being just the commander in chief) and that is ready only for defensive purposes. Funded, sadly, by some form of taxation. If we are to enjoy the fruits of a free market, we better protect it or not? 



An anarchist society gains some protection from three relatively plausible things that I'll assume exist and thus serve as a deterrent:
1) The anarchist society will be wealthier than other societies.
2) Free of any trade restrictions, the anarchist society will trade with any and all countries
3) Without a central government, invading an anarchist society is difficult. (See the US in Afghanistan) 




#3 is where I take issue.

#3 implies a nation. I would bet that an anarchist society would have plenty of infighting.  Taking over a nation with infighting is relatively easy.

Invading Afghanistan wasn't hard.  Getting out seems to be the problem.


Overthrowing the weak government was easily done. Actually accomplishing anything in Afghanistan is hard because the government is meaningless. I

I don't see why an anarchist society would be prone to more infighting than say the USA as it is now. I would see less reasons for infighting. 


You're still operating your hypothetical scenarios within a paradigm of government, which is really funny and ironic.

Let's say Land X is an anarchist society.  They have no central government.  Land Y has a central government and is bigger than Land X- much bigger.  Land Y bombs the sh*t out of Land X.  They move in and take over the land, then enslave the former citizens of Land X.

This is the most likely scenario.  How do I know this?  Because the Mongols did it many times over.

Why has the US been completely unable to ever do this to a decentralized nation? 

That scenario also plays out for any country, whether it has a government or not. 


Unable?  Do you really think that if political pressures were off, the US couldn't completely take over Afghanistan? 

Yes I do.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32530
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:53
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


What's a libertarian nation to do without a proper army? And who does the army represent? In a libertarian country where absolute elimination of the state occurs, frontiers pretty much disappear (at least from our side), massive migration, and there we can have the much dreaded chaos that I think can be avoided with minimal government. Also, if a country where to reach a state of true zero-government, who's to stop foreign foes from coming and pretty much doing what they want? I don't think private forces would be able to manage anything in this case, not economically (they build the arsenal anyway) but from an organizational point of view. That's why I think an army is necessary, an army that represents everybody (not the king president, but the people, the president being just the commander in chief) and that is ready only for defensive purposes. Funded, sadly, by some form of taxation. If we are to enjoy the fruits of a free market, we better protect it or not? 



An anarchist society gains some protection from three relatively plausible things that I'll assume exist and thus serve as a deterrent:
1) The anarchist society will be wealthier than other societies.
2) Free of any trade restrictions, the anarchist society will trade with any and all countries
3) Without a central government, invading an anarchist society is difficult. (See the US in Afghanistan) 




#3 is where I take issue.

#3 implies a nation. I would bet that an anarchist society would have plenty of infighting.  Taking over a nation with infighting is relatively easy.

Invading Afghanistan wasn't hard.  Getting out seems to be the problem.


Overthrowing the weak government was easily done. Actually accomplishing anything in Afghanistan is hard because the government is meaningless. I

I don't see why an anarchist society would be prone to more infighting than say the USA as it is now. I would see less reasons for infighting. 


You're still operating your hypothetical scenarios within a paradigm of government, which is really funny and ironic.

Let's say Land X is an anarchist society.  They have no central government.  Land Y has a central government and is bigger than Land X- much bigger.  Land Y bombs the sh*t out of Land X.  They move in and take over the land, then enslave the former citizens of Land X.

This is the most likely scenario.  How do I know this?  Because the Mongols did it many times over.

Why has the US been completely unable to ever do this to a decentralized nation? 

That scenario also plays out for any country, whether it has a government or not. 


Unable?  Do you really think that if political pressures were off, the US couldn't completely take over Afghanistan? 

Yes I do.


Okay
Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:55
What political pressures are there? Nobody in American even cares that a war is going on. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:01
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Llama, in the spirit of free trade, I will send you a copy of Refulgence (next Epignosis album) for a good book you wrote.  What say you?

This reeks of discrimination... 
Back to Top
JJLehto View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:02
Oh llama has missed much! Has he found yet that Teo is  hard core libertarian?
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:04
Calm down... I still don't drink beer... And I would be the first or at most the tenth hispanic-Libertarian... Tongue

EDIT: I just read some poll results that say that, of those hispanics that don't align with the democrats, an 8% said the libertarian party better understood them... So at least there's a few hundred... 


Edited by The T - February 07 2011 at 22:07
Back to Top
JJLehto View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:09
Just wanted to make sure his many many pages of work didn't go unnoticed in your conversion from freedom hater to libertarian! 
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32530
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:13
So T, when will you be converting to Christianity?  Wink
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:13
i still have ideological gaps... though they are mostly originated in my poorer knowledge of economics when compared to these guys here... 

Freedom hater LOL it is actually true... 

Everybody ignored the link to that article about drunk driving which agrees with Shields' radical idea... Cry
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:14
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

So T, when will you be converting to Christianity?  Wink

When they stop opposing freedom.... Wink
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32530
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:18
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

So T, when will you be converting to Christianity?  Wink

When they stop opposing freedom.... Wink


"The truth shall set you free."  Wink
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:20
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

So T, when will you be converting to Christianity?  Wink

When they stop opposing freedom.... Wink


"The truth shall set you free."  Wink

"Nothing shall set you free since you were born free." Wink
Back to Top
JJLehto View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:20
Fair enough Teo, though lack of economic knowledge has never stopped me from anything!

Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:22
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Fair enough Teo, though lack of economic knowledge has never stopped me from anything!


That's why you find a wall consistently proving socialism wrong... LOLTongue
Back to Top
JJLehto View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:23
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Fair enough Teo, though lack of economic knowledge has never stopped me from anything!


That's why you find a wall consistently proving socialism wrong... LOLTongue


Hehe yeah but have to tread lightly! While im no socialist I can't quash it too badly or it would look bad!
Those commies though...silly mofo's
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32530
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:27
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

So T, when will you be converting to Christianity?  Wink

When they stop opposing freedom.... Wink


"The truth shall set you free."  Wink

"Nothing shall set you free since you were born free." Wink


I was a "go-along" Christian until 16 or so.

Eventually I said things orthodox Christians didn't like, like how the doctrine of the Trinity is a fraud, "Satan" does not exist, and "hell" is a bullsh*t scare tactic people made up.  I also drink beer because Christ made wine!

Neal Morse is booed for his "preachiness," but ironically, he would be viewed with scorn in most churches in the US because he also is not a Trinitarian.
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 22:30
I used to love communism.. Oh the flags the parades, the missiles, the statues, the hammer and the sickle.. The POWER! 

I still believe the USSR's anthem is the best there has ever been though... 




Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4344454647 350>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.770 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.