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Topic ClosedLibertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!

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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 18:59
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Does that shows that for a few years in 2000's the US had a surplus? And that the smallest size government has had in the recent years was in the same year? 

How the hell do you get out of a situation like the one predicted for 2020 and up? Printing more money? (worse) Raising taxes to 90%? Wouldn't it be quite the more reasonable just cutting spending? Confused


We once ran budget surpluses even though it seems so foreign now.

Honestly, you probably don't. As Pat said below, revenues can't be indefinitely increased just by taxation. A corresponding growth in the economy would also have to occur. Even so, our economy is not growing even remotely close to the rate at which our debt is growing, as illustrated by the chart. You can print the money, but then you destroy your currency.

This is why spending has to be cut. You can't tax your way out of a deficit, it doesn't work. Spending must be cut.

EDIT: The last time we had a true surplus was in the 50s I think. Even Clinton's 'surplus' was not a true surplus. It's more of a manipulation of borrowing from non-budgetary sources so that it appears to be a surplus.


I'm an optimistic person, but I have lost all hope that America can pull itself out of this socialist whirlpool without a complete economic meltdown. No politicians (and few voters) have the stomach to cut spending in the ways it needs to be cut, even in the face of financial collapse. You are absolutely right that taxes and monetary policy will solve nothing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 19:18
Llama, you're back! How things have changed around here... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 19:32
I apologize for my repeated long absences. I am having a very busy semester. But I try to stop by every now and then!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:11
As much as I support our military, defense spending is more out of control than entitlement spending.  What a lot of folks don't realize is that "welfare" takes up so little of our budget, that if it were cut out completely, practically nothing would change in terms of government spending.

Our big bills are interest on current debt and defense.  The former you can't opt out of, and the latter most of us don't want to.

That leaves the department of education.  Evil Smile

And we could get rid of the useless FDA, EPA, and other alphabet soup leaches.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:21
Rob, I'm afraid that's not true at all.  Mandatory spending (SS, Medicare/Medicaid, etc.) is 56% of the federal budget for FY11.  The base defense budget (excluding war costs) is $550b, only slightly more than just Medicare taken by itself.

Defense used to take up a much larger percentage of the budget 50+ years ago - besides spikes for various foreign adventures such as Vietnam, that percentage has steadily shrunk over that time period.

That all said, I agree that there is far too much waste in the DoD budget, and it could be pared down considerably.  At the least, SecDef is trying to move in the right direction.  If "Tea Partiers" want to have an ounce of credibility, they'll include defense along with everything else in considering what cuts are to be made.


Edited by Padraic - February 07 2011 at 20:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:22
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

As much as I support our military, defense spending is more out of control than entitlement spending.  What a lot of folks don't realize is that "welfare" takes up so little of our budget, that if it were cut out completely, practically nothing would change in terms of government spending.

Our big bills are interest on current debt and defense.  The former you can't opt out of, and the latter most of us don't want to.

That leaves the department of education.  Evil Smile

And we could get rid of the useless FDA, EPA, and other alphabet soup leaches.

And don't leave out the BOAS...
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:27
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Rob, I'm afraid that's not true at all.  Mandatory spending (SS, Medicare/Medicaid, etc.) is 56% of the federal budget for FY11.  The base defense budget (excluding war costs) is $550b, only slightly more than just Medicare taken by itself.

Defense used to take up a much larger percentage of the budget 50+ years ago - besides spikes for various foreign adventures such as Vietnam, that percentage has steadily shrunk over that time period.

That all said, I agree that there is far too much waste in the DoD budget, and it could be pared down considerably.  At the least, SecDef is trying to move in the right direction.  If "Tea Partiers" want to have an ounce of credibility, they'll include defense along with everything else in considering what cuts are to be made.


The figures I referred to treat SS/Medicare as separate items because they are not "federal income tax," but "FICA."  I apologize if I used the term "entitlement" inappropriately.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:27

What's a libertarian nation to do without a proper army? And who does the army represent? In a libertarian country where absolute elimination of the state occurs, frontiers pretty much disappear (at least from our side), massive migration, and there we can have the much dreaded chaos that I think can be avoided with minimal government. Also, if a country where to reach a state of true zero-government, who's to stop foreign foes from coming and pretty much doing what they want? I don't think private forces would be able to manage anything in this case, not economically (they build the arsenal anyway) but from an organizational point of view. That's why I think an army is necessary, an army that represents everybody (not the king president, but the people, the president being just the commander in chief) and that is ready only for defensive purposes. Funded, sadly, by some form of taxation. If we are to enjoy the fruits of a free market, we better protect it or not? 




Edited by The T - February 07 2011 at 20:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:29
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

As much as I support our military, defense spending is more out of control than entitlement spending.  What a lot of folks don't realize is that "welfare" takes up so little of our budget, that if it were cut out completely, practically nothing would change in terms of government spending.

Our big bills are interest on current debt and defense.  The former you can't opt out of, and the latter most of us don't want to.

That leaves the department of education.  Evil Smile

And we could get rid of the useless FDA, EPA, and other alphabet soup leaches.

And don't leave out the BOAS...

What's the BOAS, besides an awfully big snake? ConfusedTongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:33
Handy pie chart.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:36
I got that Pat.  I looked at several pie sharts before posting.  I deliberately left out SS & Med because those funds don't (at present) contribute to the public debt.

That makes the DoD #1.


Edited by Epignosis - February 07 2011 at 20:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:45
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I got that Pat.  I looked at several pie sharts before posting.  I deliberately left out SS & Med because those funds don't (at present) contribute to the public debt.

That makes the DoD #1.

I get what you're saying.  I just posted the pie chart for general reference, not to throw more spears at you.  Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:50
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I got that Pat.  I looked at several pie sharts before posting.  I deliberately left out SS & Med because those funds don't (at present) contribute to the public debt.

That makes the DoD #1.

I get what you're saying.  I just posted the pie chart for general reference, not to throw more spears at you.  Wink


Spears rhymes with beers...I'd have taken them!  Cry

LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 20:55
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I got that Pat.  I looked at several pie sharts before posting.  I deliberately left out SS & Med because those funds don't (at present) contribute to the public debt.

That makes the DoD #1.

I get what you're saying.  I just posted the pie chart for general reference, not to throw more spears at you.  Wink


Spears rhymes with beers...I'd have taken them!  Cry

LOL

LOL  Enjoying a nice Sam Adams as we speak.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:00
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I got that Pat.  I looked at several pie sharts before posting.  I deliberately left out SS & Med because those funds don't (at present) contribute to the public debt.

That makes the DoD #1.

I get what you're saying.  I just posted the pie chart for general reference, not to throw more spears at you.  Wink


Spears rhymes with beers...I'd have taken them!  Cry

LOL

LOL  Enjoying a nice Sam Adams as we speak.


My current stock consists of:

1 Sam Adams Revolutionary Rye Ale (too f**king good to drink)
1 Sam Adams Fezziwig (leftover from Christmas)
6 Milwaukee Best Ice
4 Milwaukee Best Premium (i.e., Regular)
1 Miller High Life

So yeah, after tomorrow, I'll be drinking tea until Tuesday next week.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:11
Apparently, being libertarian implies a strong affinity towards beer... 

In relation to this, I just read this article that makes a good point for something that Younger Pat argued in favor of a few months ago. I totally agree... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:14
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


What's a libertarian nation to do without a proper army? And who does the army represent? In a libertarian country where absolute elimination of the state occurs, frontiers pretty much disappear (at least from our side), massive migration, and there we can have the much dreaded chaos that I think can be avoided with minimal government. Also, if a country where to reach a state of true zero-government, who's to stop foreign foes from coming and pretty much doing what they want? I don't think private forces would be able to manage anything in this case, not economically (they build the arsenal anyway) but from an organizational point of view. That's why I think an army is necessary, an army that represents everybody (not the king president, but the people, the president being just the commander in chief) and that is ready only for defensive purposes. Funded, sadly, by some form of taxation. If we are to enjoy the fruits of a free market, we better protect it or not? 



An anarchist society gains some protection from three relatively plausible things that I'll assume exist and thus serve as a deterrent:
1) The anarchist society will be wealthier than other societies.
2) Free of any trade restrictions, the anarchist society will trade with any and all countries
3) Without a central government, invading an anarchist society is difficult. (See the US in Afghanistan) 


"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:15
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



Our big bills are interest on current debt and defense.  The former you can't opt out of, and the latter most of us don't want to.




I want to!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:20
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



Our big bills are interest on current debt and defense.  The former you can't opt out of, and the latter most of us don't want to.




I want to!

Get a haircut and a job you damn hippie
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 21:23
I like having a strong military as much as anyone, but honestly our defense budget could probably be cut in half without anyone noticing. I would really like to get rid of medicare/mediciad/SSI though
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