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Topic ClosedLibertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!

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Padraic View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 13:49
Originally posted by Someone who is absolutely <b>not </b>The T Someone who is absolutely not The T wrote:

 

Modern American libertarianism is stupid because it is short sighted. It doesn’t comprehend what an uber-libertarian world would look like in the long run. The rich would simply get richer, and we would all be at the cold mercy of corporate behemoths whose only virtue and aim is in making a profit, the environment and general wellbeing of society be damned. Ultimately it is the enemy of Democracy as we know it in that the alternative it offers is a government of the fabulously wealthy and greedy, for the fabulously wealthy and greedy. Everywhere would be either Wall Street or Squalor Row.

The infantile selfishness of American libertarianism should be obvious to anyone with a brain. It is so much about the welfare of the individual that the collective is the baby thrown out with the bath water. Like all philosophies doomed to failure, American libertarianism doesn’t recognize the whole of which it is a part. Life is a balancing act and calls for checks and balances to keep it healthy. Some times call for a focus on the individual to effectuate the greatest good. Other times call for a bolstering of the health of the collective to keep things humming in the general direction toward progress. Make one the ultimate master of the other and disaster will follow.

American libertarianism is just plain mean. It is a philosophy of heartlessness at its core, and ruthlessly promotes division between the haves and have-nots. The only welfare offered by the quintessential American libertarian is that in times of need, pray harder and good luck. Economically it is survival of the fittest, and ignores the fact that humanity is endowed with more than a lizard’s brain. Love and compassion for humanity and our planet don’t fit into the libertarian rubric from what I can tell.


This is basically no argument at all.  There is zero substance here; you can always tell when writers resort to insulting language (stupid, mean, etc.)


Edited by Padraic - January 29 2011 at 15:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 14:01
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

What's bad is that these kind of things are quite easy to sell. I bought them myself just until a while ago. Painting libertarians is quite easy using this kind of speech (found in another website): 


Modern American libertarianism is stupid because it is short sighted. It doesn’t comprehend what an uber-libertarian world would look like in the long run. The rich would simply get richer, and we would all be at the cold mercy of corporate behemoths whose only virtue and aim is in making a profit, the environment and general wellbeing of society be damned. Ultimately it is the enemy of Democracy as we know it in that the alternative it offers is a government of the fabulously wealthy and greedy, for the fabulously wealthy and greedy. Everywhere would be either Wall Street or Squalor Row.

The infantile selfishness of American libertarianism should be obvious to anyone with a brain. It is so much about the welfare of the individual that the collective is the baby thrown out with the bath water. Like all philosophies doomed to failure, American libertarianism doesn’t recognize the whole of which it is a part. Life is a balancing act and calls for checks and balances to keep it healthy. Some times call for a focus on the individual to effectuate the greatest good. Other times call for a bolstering of the health of the collective to keep things humming in the general direction toward progress. Make one the ultimate master of the other and disaster will follow.

American libertarianism is just plain mean. It is a philosophy of heartlessness at its core, and ruthlessly promotes division between the haves and have-nots. The only welfare offered by the quintessential American libertarian is that in times of need, pray harder and good luck. Economically it is survival of the fittest, and ignores the fact that humanity is endowed with more than a lizard’s brain. Love and compassion for humanity and our planet don’t fit into the libertarian rubric from what I can tell.

Yes, it provides no arguments for what he's asseverating but it's quite catchy to the normal political person who has some kind of equality ideals. Or look at this condescendingly benevolent text asking questions about libertarians: 

At the same time, when viewed through a different set of eyes (that is to say, mine), libertarians raise questions about certain other qualities. Please note that I am not intending to traffic in stereotypes, but rather simply ask questions based on my experience with libertarians:
  • Are libertarians out of touch with reality? The principles to which they adhere are truly admirable and worthy of aspiration in a tidy utopian world. Yet, those tenets don't always seem realistic in the rather messy world in which we live -- one that is filled with financial crises, natural and man-made disasters, corruption, wars, and, well, the complexity of the human condition.
  • Are libertarians selfish? In my interactions with them, I am aware that they typically reference their views in terms of how government impacts them as individuals rather than as citizens of America. There is also no sense of how government influences other members of our society.
  • Do libertarians lack compassion? I don't sense a great deal of empathy for those less fortunate than they. This, I suppose, fits in with their view on personal responsibility. If people want to change, libertarians would argue, well, they just need to stop looking for help from our government and pull themselves up by their own boot straps.
  • Are libertarians rigid thinkers? I've noticed that some tend to see the world in black and white: all government is bad, the Constitution is immutable, people are with them or against them, and beliefs are either right or wrong. Nuance, shades of gray, or common ground don't seem to exist in their world-view.
  • Do libertarians believe they are the only free thinkers? I've been told by libertarians that I believe what I believe because I'm being politically correct, following the herd, spouting a set of talking points, or not thinking. And they believe what they believe out of deep conviction.

Then you paint each one as selfish, eliminating income tax as impossible, eliminating insurance-company monopolies in healthcare as murderous, and you get an unsurmountable wall. Few people can climb over this. Even I, in the process of climbing it as I am, still tend to look to the side I'm leaving... You have painted the people as selfish and crazy, you can easily paint their ideas as selfish and crazy. 


Yeah as Pat said, it means nothing. It's just a bunch of unsupported negative generalizations. Replace Libertarian with any other philosophy and the argument would make just as much (i.e. none) sense.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 17:05
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 Modern American libertarianism is stupid because it is short sighted. It doesn’t comprehend what an uber-libertarian world would look like in the long run. The rich would simply get richer, and we would all be at the cold mercy of corporate behemoths whose only virtue and aim is in making a profit, the environment and general wellbeing of society be damned. Ultimately it is the enemy of Democracy as we know it in that the alternative it offers is a government of the fabulously wealthy and greedy, for the fabulously wealthy and greedy. Everywhere would be either Wall Street or Squalor Row. 

Last I checked, this is EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW due to "democracy" in the U.S.

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 The infantile selfishness of American libertarianism should be obvious to anyone with a brain. It is so much about the welfare of the individual that the collective is the baby thrown out with the bath water. Like all philosophies doomed to failure, American libertarianism doesn’t recognize the whole of which it is a part. Life is a balancing act and calls for checks and balances to keep it healthy. Some times call for a focus on the individual to effectuate the greatest good. Other times call for a bolstering of the health of the collective to keep things humming in the general direction toward progress. Make one the ultimate master of the other and disaster will follow.

Again, they seem to be describing what we already have; if anyone is short sighted it would be the people who can't realize WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW. This argument is clearly using flawed reasoning, which is the opposite of a libertarian mindset. To me, the entire purpose of liberalism is to understand truth and liberty for all, with minimal interference from the government. I understand the utopian mindset is a pipe dream, but you could argue that's throwing the baby out with the bath water as well. The same people that complain about "survival of the fittest" don't even realize they compete for the jobs that the democrats/republicans persuade them to pursue, so the money cycle can keep feeding the control pyramid so the rich stay rich and the poor stay working pointless labor under the guise of "progress".

At it's core, all of politics is a power monopoly just like religion. Thinking and acting for yourself is the only true first step to freedom.






Edited by AllP0werToSlaves - January 28 2011 at 17:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 20:00
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I'm an anarchist. What's more idealistic than that?


Yeah, you and llama and anton are even more idealistic than me.

And you finally admit it eh?
I mean the only possible way you could be anymore libertarian is by saying there should be literally NO government in anyway.

So just embrace your anarchism.


Edited by JJLehto - January 28 2011 at 20:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 20:03
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 

One can be an idealist and not be socialist. That's actually possible.




Indeed, that is what I consider myself.
Sorry to ignore the rest of what you said LOL I need to run.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 20:07
Libertarianism is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabulous.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 20:10
Caio, go back to the SR Wink

....who took off your chains anyway? LOL


Edited by JJLehto - January 28 2011 at 20:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 20:14
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 

Modern American libertarianism is stupid because it is short sighted. It doesn’t comprehend what an uber-libertarian world would look like in the long run. The rich would simply get richer, and we would all be at the cold mercy of corporate behemoths whose only virtue and aim is in making a profit, the environment and general wellbeing of society be damned. Ultimately it is the enemy of Democracy as we know it in that the alternative it offers is a government of the fabulously wealthy and greedy, for the fabulously wealthy and greedy. Everywhere would be either Wall Street or Squalor Row.

The infantile selfishness of American libertarianism should be obvious to anyone with a brain. It is so much about the welfare of the individual that the collective is the baby thrown out with the bath water. Like all philosophies doomed to failure, American libertarianism doesn’t recognize the whole of which it is a part. Life is a balancing act and calls for checks and balances to keep it healthy. Some times call for a focus on the individual to effectuate the greatest good. Other times call for a bolstering of the health of the collective to keep things humming in the general direction toward progress. Make one the ultimate master of the other and disaster will follow.

American libertarianism is just plain mean. It is a philosophy of heartlessness at its core, and ruthlessly promotes division between the haves and have-nots. The only welfare offered by the quintessential American libertarian is that in times of need, pray harder and good luck. Economically it is survival of the fittest, and ignores the fact that humanity is endowed with more than a lizard’s brain. Love and compassion for humanity and our planet don’t fit into the libertarian rubric from what I can tell.


This is basically no argument at all.  There is zero substance here; you can always tell when writers resort to insulting language (stupid, mean, etc.)


Would it be far for me to say to you that what you wrote there is basically no argument at all and a bunch of crap?  Of course the insulting language isn't warranted, but T does make well worded points that I happen to agree with. 

Basically, there is no ism that may look good in theory, but when carried out by flawed humans doesn't work out as intended.

So I will be the first to propose the adoption of Capitolibertarsocialism. 


Edited by Slartibartfast - January 28 2011 at 20:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 20:33
^Isn't that what we have right now?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 20:35
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Isn't that what we have right now?

Maybe, but we haven't perfected it yet. LOL

Still a bit too much aristofacisreligofundamentic at the moment.


Edited by Slartibartfast - January 28 2011 at 20:39
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 20:47
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Caio, go back to the SR Wink

....who took off your chains anyway? LOL


Cry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 23:23
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I'm an anarchist. What's more idealistic than that?


Yeah, you and llama and anton are even more idealistic than me.

And you finally admit it eh?
I mean the only possible way you could be anymore libertarian is by saying there should be literally NO government in anyway.

So just embrace your anarchism.

I admitted my anarchism like 20 pages ago.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 23:25
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 

Modern American libertarianism is stupid because it is short sighted. It doesn’t comprehend what an uber-libertarian world would look like in the long run. The rich would simply get richer, and we would all be at the cold mercy of corporate behemoths whose only virtue and aim is in making a profit, the environment and general wellbeing of society be damned. Ultimately it is the enemy of Democracy as we know it in that the alternative it offers is a government of the fabulously wealthy and greedy, for the fabulously wealthy and greedy. Everywhere would be either Wall Street or Squalor Row.

The infantile selfishness of American libertarianism should be obvious to anyone with a brain. It is so much about the welfare of the individual that the collective is the baby thrown out with the bath water. Like all philosophies doomed to failure, American libertarianism doesn’t recognize the whole of which it is a part. Life is a balancing act and calls for checks and balances to keep it healthy. Some times call for a focus on the individual to effectuate the greatest good. Other times call for a bolstering of the health of the collective to keep things humming in the general direction toward progress. Make one the ultimate master of the other and disaster will follow.

American libertarianism is just plain mean. It is a philosophy of heartlessness at its core, and ruthlessly promotes division between the haves and have-nots. The only welfare offered by the quintessential American libertarian is that in times of need, pray harder and good luck. Economically it is survival of the fittest, and ignores the fact that humanity is endowed with more than a lizard’s brain. Love and compassion for humanity and our planet don’t fit into the libertarian rubric from what I can tell.


This is basically no argument at all.  There is zero substance here; you can always tell when writers resort to insulting language (stupid, mean, etc.)


Would it be far for me to say to you that what you wrote there is basically no argument at all and a bunch of crap?  Of course the insulting language isn't warranted, but T does make well worded points that I happen to agree with. 

Basically, there is no ism that may look good in theory, but when carried out by flawed humans doesn't work out as intended.

So I will be the first to propose the adoption of Capitolibertarsocialism.  

I was under the impression that T was quoting something. Am I wrong?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2011 at 23:58
Of course I was. It even was with a different font...

I had said those words it would've been the quickest turn-around-and-back in history (well, leaving aside professional politicians of course )
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2011 at 09:21
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 

Modern American libertarianism is stupid because it is short sighted. It doesn’t comprehend what an uber-libertarian world would look like in the long run. The rich would simply get richer, and we would all be at the cold mercy of corporate behemoths whose only virtue and aim is in making a profit, the environment and general wellbeing of society be damned. Ultimately it is the enemy of Democracy as we know it in that the alternative it offers is a government of the fabulously wealthy and greedy, for the fabulously wealthy and greedy. Everywhere would be either Wall Street or Squalor Row.

The infantile selfishness of American libertarianism should be obvious to anyone with a brain. It is so much about the welfare of the individual that the collective is the baby thrown out with the bath water. Like all philosophies doomed to failure, American libertarianism doesn’t recognize the whole of which it is a part. Life is a balancing act and calls for checks and balances to keep it healthy. Some times call for a focus on the individual to effectuate the greatest good. Other times call for a bolstering of the health of the collective to keep things humming in the general direction toward progress. Make one the ultimate master of the other and disaster will follow.

American libertarianism is just plain mean. It is a philosophy of heartlessness at its core, and ruthlessly promotes division between the haves and have-nots. The only welfare offered by the quintessential American libertarian is that in times of need, pray harder and good luck. Economically it is survival of the fittest, and ignores the fact that humanity is endowed with more than a lizard’s brain. Love and compassion for humanity and our planet don’t fit into the libertarian rubric from what I can tell.


This is basically no argument at all.  There is zero substance here; you can always tell when writers resort to insulting language (stupid, mean, etc.)


Would it be far for me to say to you that what you wrote there is basically no argument at all and a bunch of crap? 


Well, I wasn't trying to make an argument, so it would be fair to say that.  If you think my dismissal of the original text is a "bunch of crap", that's fine too - I'm long past the point of caring what random people on the internet think.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2011 at 09:51
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

  Of course the insulting language isn't warranted, but T does make well worded points that I happen to agree with. 



Wait, what? Where?

There's literally no point of that self-aggrandized rambling that comes close to a sensible critique of libertarianism. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2011 at 12:19
^And, again, that post was a quote from some fools in the internet which I used to clearly show the kind of things that are said of libertarians out there. Not one word of the quoted ones is mine. I hope I wasn't the subject of a FoxNews/MSNbc-out-of-context-type quoting....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2011 at 12:44
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


  Of course the insulting language isn't warranted, but T does make well worded points that I happen to agree with. 

Wait, what? Where?
There's literally no point of that self-aggrandized rambling that comes close to a sensible critique of libertarianism. 
T is not making any points there Brian. If you failed to see the different font and my words saying "I found this on the internet" it's too bad but don't make me look like I said that. It makes you look like a tabloid reporter Or an MSNBC editor.

How easy it is these days to put words in one's mouth... Bad Slarti bad...

Edited by The T - January 29 2011 at 12:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2011 at 13:53
he is the uber troll


Time always wins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2011 at 15:14
I fixed my post for enhanced clarity
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