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Topic ClosedLibertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!
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GaryB View Drop Down
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Points: 451 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2011 at 09:28
Regardless of how I feel about the present administration I have never doubted that Obama will have a second term.
First of all, it took a long time to elect a black president. If he fails, who knows how many more years it will take for another black man (or any other minority) to be elected president. I don't think that the powers that be will  let this happen.
Also, some form of amnesty between now and the next election will give him the Hispanic vote and that will give him a second term.
Add to that the fact that the Republicans can't seem to come up with an electable candidate.
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2011 at 12:25
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Good and Bad news from an early republican straw poll (NH).
Bad News:
Mitt Romney won with 35%, showing that the party insiders have him on track to become this election's "electable" John McCain,/Bob Dole moderate (comfortably authoritarian) party candidate. 
 
Good News:
a) The republican's can't possibly nominate Mitt Romney because of the health care issue, or so any sane person would think (this is the Republican Party we are talking about though).
b) Ron Paul finished second in the poll with 11%  (up from where he finished in 08', but not by much) 
 
Bad News:
I can already predict what will happen now.
Roomney will get the nomination because analysts hired by the party elite will convince voters that he's "safe" (what a warm cushy feeling the perception of safety is) candidate and that sacrificing principles to win is better than nominating someone who could never possibly win (despite it being proven over and over that a weakly principled republican can't win a national election).  The media will come to Obama's aid in making him appear to have moderated and the differences between moderate Roomney will shrink, in the voter's mind (the voters mind: "hey, American Idol's on" *drools while texting in Idol vote*).  Obama will win with well under 50% of the vote.


I'm nt even very hardcore libertarian, but Ron Paul is one of 3 people I would ever vote for president currently.

1) Ron Paul
2) Mitch Daniels (Governor, IN)
3) Richard Luger (Sen., IN)

Luger will never run, and Daniels probably won't, so...
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2011 at 12:32
Libertarians: with the exception of Ron Paul, voting republican is as incoherent for you as voting democrat. Yes, the latter want more government, but republicans want it anyway, just instead of making it uber-powerful they want to give it to their friends in corporations. Also, in personal freedoms, I'm not sure which side is worse.

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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2011 at 13:22
Ron Paul is the only person from either of the two parties that I would elect to any office.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2011 at 00:34
As you will probably not know, my country, once a peaceful place, is now ridden with crime. The other day the socialist president, when asked about the safety crisis, said, translated as good as I can: "well, people have to let criminals rob them, lest they kill them"

f**k socio-fascism is destroying my country. Now he wants to use a popular referendum (since he's popular with the poor ignorant masses) to start imposing his allmighty will. Socialism's ends need fascist means. And in the end, as evidenced there, Orwell's famous Animal Farm phrase is so true: "all are equal, but some are more equal than others".

I hate myself for ever having defended "free market socialism". I'm starting to see is the most manipulative oxymoron around. For, if at the start it might well be free, it tends to degenerate in the dictatorship of, not even the proletariat, but grey, dark, insidious, lying bureaucrats.

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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2011 at 07:33
Even if the best intentioned person is left to wield the power of the state for good, there is simply no fair way to use it. Power is force, and force itself is the problem. Not to mention how easily corruptible once can be when faced with such prestige, power, and good intentions.

You're on the good side now T. No worries. I think we have all pretty much come from there. It's such a easy position which doesn't require much thought to grasp, and it appeals to our sense of morality.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2011 at 11:32
True. Socialism decent ends attract easily. But there are no decent means to achieve socialism, 

There is a good phrase by a Cuban economic-political writer, in reference to the typical pseudo-intellectual-college Latin American love of socialism and despair of capitalism: "Lo grave no es haber sido idiota, sino seguir siendolo". Translated as well as I can, "Having been an idiot is not so bad; what's really bad is to continue being one". 
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2011 at 11:46
Why is socialism loved so much in that part of the world? 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2011 at 11:52
Poverty, the idea that the US has pretty much stolen everything from us (?!?), a little cultural elite (not economical) that has kidnapped public education, oligarchies that really exploit the poor and people still believing in one-man-solutions, like some kind of Messiah that will deliver them from poverty; It's very sociological and psychological; oppression from the Spain Crown when the territory was conquered, leaving all natives (we call them "indios") to brutal poverty and pseudo-slavery, which in turn creates hate for the white colour (there's a lot of racial tension down there, specially in Andean countries); the stupid idea that capitalism has ever really been in effect down there, when all we've had is some 40% free market with huge governments regulating and obstructing everything. "Neoliberalism" is akin to "baby killing" for many people in my country and alike. They are mind-slaves. They are easy to manipulate. And governments have always been rich people doing everything for themselves. In the end, is just natural that Che Guevara is some sort of deity for the left. 
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2011 at 12:45
I can only say that while I have considered the preservation of the constitutional party of the General Government to be the foundation of our peace and safety at home and abroad, I yet believe that the maintenance of the rights and authority reserved to the states and to the people, not only essential to the adjustment and balance of the general system, but the safeguard to the continuance of a free government. I consider it a chief source of stability to our political system, whereas the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it. I need not refer one so well acquainted as you are with American history, to the State papers of Washington and Jefferson, the representatives of the federal and democratic parties, denouncing consolidation and centralization of power, as tending to the subversion of State Governments, and to despotism.

-Robert E. Lee
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2011 at 14:59
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Poverty, the idea that the US has pretty much stolen everything from us (?!?), a little cultural elite (not economical) that has kidnapped public education, oligarchies that really exploit the poor and people still believing in one-man-solutions, like some kind of Messiah that will deliver them from poverty; It's very sociological and psychological; oppression from the Spain Crown when the territory was conquered, leaving all natives (we call them "indios") to brutal poverty and pseudo-slavery, which in turn creates hate for the white colour (there's a lot of racial tension down there, specially in Andean countries); the stupid idea that capitalism has ever really been in effect down there, when all we've had is some 40% free market with huge governments regulating and obstructing everything. "Neoliberalism" is akin to "baby killing" for many people in my country and alike. They are mind-slaves. They are easy to manipulate. And governments have always been rich people doing everything for themselves. In the end, is just natural that Che Guevara is some sort of deity for the left. 


It's a shame.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2011 at 10:08
Apparently New York and Arkansas want to ban the use of headphones while parallel or adjacent to a street by pedestrians.

You know to make us safer.

lol@free country.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2011 at 12:20
^lol@people saying state government is so much better than the federal one.

Will the entire world one day be ruled by a gigantic bureaucracy?
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2011 at 12:36
Yeah people annoy me when they just complain about the federal government having a power, but then think individual states doing it is magically fine. Federalism is a great way to limit power, but the same vigilance is needed at all levels for anything to be effective. That goes right down to local ordinances. The entire idea of keeping the States in control is to make anti-freedom measures easier to defeat since States are theoretically more responsive and less dangerous. The idea isn't to just accept whatever a state does.

I don't think it will. States need war to stay in power. But that of course is the end goal.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - January 25 2011 at 12:36
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2011 at 23:19
Well missed the State of the Union, huzzah work.

Not sure if I missed much though...guess I might as well watch it.

I was mainly looking forward to seeing the tea party reaction, since apparently the Rep one was not enough LOL
I can only hope this rift kills the party, since the alternative (tea party consuming the Reps) is too horrifying for me.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2011 at 23:31
It was quite a middle of the road speech. You can say anything about Obama, but he certainly can deliver a speech. It was quite more to the right than normal. In a way I liked it because it sounded like he doesn't want to (or just knows he can't) make government an all-intrusive powerful entity ruling our lives. Of course some things are still there (health care, with which I still can't manage to fully disagree) though even this was also delivered together with an appeal to the other side (trying to eliminate frivolous lawsuits that make costs of health care higher). All in all, a good speech, useless, full of dreams and empty words, but in some ways somewhat decent.

One thing is certain and even now I maintain it: the US, full of ridiculous regulations as it is, is still a beacon of freedom compared to other nations, so much that this self-congratulating government party that the state of the union is is still a call for the individual to show his best, pull himself out of misery, and politicians to help him. Unlike other places where speeches go about what all-powerful messiahs or goernments can do to solve all the problems of their people. Twisted as it is, freedom is still a higher value in the US than anywhere else. I have a good feeling this country just can't ever let government get too big.

In a way, those few guys who wrote the piece of paper about 200+ years ago really did their job well... That damn thing in a way has safeguarded liberty against tiranny... But it's always in the hands of the people to stop it, and a people willing to surrender will do it trampling over as many constitutions as they manage to...
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2011 at 23:37
I had a feeling he would take a more "middle of the road" speech.
Guess I really didn't miss much! LOL

And I know speeches are just for the surface, can't take much out of them at all...but I do like it. Great show.
Obama is indeed one great speech teller, even most hardcore haters I've seen grant him that much.

It was his speech back in '04 at the DNC that pretty much put him in the spotlight. I remember all my fellow 16 year olds on Xanga (oh gawd) talking about how awesome it was and we wanted him to be our man.

6 years later...not quite as high on him. LOL


Edited by JJLehto - January 25 2011 at 23:38
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2011 at 23:50
I'm really starting to think he'll do better now that he doesn't have congress fully in his pocket. Both parties are almost the same sh*t, but they love to argue, and that is only good for those who don't want too much power or too big a government.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2011 at 23:52
Yeah most people I know, politically saavy and "regular" are happy with the split Congress.
In a sick way, so am I. I'm always the one for compromise and bipartisanship if possible...but with the Tea Party I'd rather get nothing done than anything they want LOLCry

I don't know man. I WAS happy when Obama had all of Congress in his pocket. Turns out the Democrats were pretty full of fail though. So much for that progressive agenda I was praying for...
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2011 at 00:42
I see that JJ is still hopelessly lost politically despite contributing to this thread for about 200 pages now.
Didn't watch the SOTU because, well, why would I?  It's a pointless show event.
 
Anyway, wanted to post this short little piece that John Stossel wrote a few years ago on being a libertarian:

What It Feels Like to Be a Libertarian

I share the Founders’ vision of limited government and the ability of people to voluntarily join with others to help their communities and themselves.  I don’t agree with the conservatives who want government to play the role of morals policemen, and I don’t agree with the nanny state liberals. I’m a libertarian.
If you live and work in Manhattan like I do, it can be tough to be a libertarian.  It means I’m surrounded by people who vehemently disagree with me – especially in the mainstream media. My kids went to school with Senator Al Franken’s.  I went on his radio show thinking I could have a decent argument with him about economics, but no.  He wouldn’t entertain a fair debate.  He just yelled at me and called me a liar.

Georgetown University Professor John Hasnas has this take on what it feels like to be a libertarian these days:

It feels bad. Being a libertarian means living with an almost unendurable level of frustration. It means being subject to unending scorn and derision despite being inevitably proven correct by events.

Imagine spending two decades warning that government policy is leading to a major economic collapse, and then, when the collapse comes, watching the world conclude that markets do not work.

Imagine continually explaining that markets function because they have a built in corrective mechanism; that periodic contractions are necessary to weed out unproductive ventures; that continually loosening credit to avoid such corrections just puts off the day of reckoning and inevitably leads to a larger recession; that this is precisely what the government did during the 1920's that led to the great depression; and then, when the recession hits, seeing it offered as proof of the failure of laissez-faire capitalism.

Yup. It often feels bad. But so what? It’s our job to fight for freedom.



Read more: http://stossel.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2009/08/01/what-it-feels-like-to-be-a-libertarian/#ixzz1C7Y0zaFU


Time always wins.
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