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Topic ClosedLibertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!

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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2011 at 10:47
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Ok Shields and people (where the hell is Llama by the way?), I have been researching online and want to read some good books on liberty, freedom, capitalism, and all of this. I see well-regarded books by authors like Hoppe, Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, Browne, etc. Talk to me people, talk to me.


If you really want to read about serious, free-market economics, read Mises. He also wrote some scything attacks of socialism (book of the same name). Hayek continued on Mises work with monetary theory and specifically the theory of the business cycle. He was a bit less extreme than Mises, probably why he won a Nobel prize and Mises didn't. He might be your best place to start. He actually shows some sympathy for government welfare programs.

Rothbard is closest to my political philosophy. I'm a huge fan of everything he writes. He has a great style. In structure it's very clean and logical like a math paper (his BS was in Mathematics), but he keeps things informal with the language. He wrote a great book, The Ethics of Liberty: A Libertarian Manifesto, available for free here.

Hoppe was a student of Rothbard, and apparently introduced a moral structure from economic axioms. I don't know much about his writings. I can't stand the way he writes. He just seems to ramble and ramble. He's written some good articles critiquing the notion that police services and the military are a public good. Those are quite good.

One not on your list is Walter Block. I would call him the preeminent living Anarcho-Capitalist scholar. He's a converted socialist himself and has written many, many articles about libertarian law. He wrote a very good book, "Defending the Indefensible", where he makes free market cases for litterers, prostitutes, scalpers, etc.

If you go to http://www.mises.org, under the literature and media tabs you will find tons of articles, books, lectures, and seminars available for free. They also have some nice blog contributes. I would recommend you start there and look for some free material. Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom", or either of the two books I mentioned above might be a good place to start reading.



Excellent. This is what I was looking for. Yes, my decision was leaning to Hayek, though I hope he writes with no accent Tongue

I can't believe I'm right now in a political theory class and I'm making quite a few comments that would make some people here happy and that would horrify The T's 1998-2000 version... Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2011 at 10:47
THE BEER IS TOO DAMN HIGH
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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2011 at 10:49
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

THE BEER IS TOO DAMN HIGH

Use that line, and the presidential run is back on track... Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2011 at 11:51
Hey guys, I found a cute girl that loves Hayek:


Time always wins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2011 at 20:51
Oh wow, I've missed a lot. I spent the holidays with family and away from my computer and the sheer number of posts I would have to catch up on has deterred me from returning, but now I'm back! How's it going folks?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2011 at 22:04
Things are going well here. There have been interesting developments. Now with you, the thread is complete (JLocke seems to have disappeared forever). As you will notice, too much asking got my head jump started...

A question: what is the though about intellectual right laws and inheritance? The thing is, let's say guy X invents something or writes a book. I assume we agree he should benefit for life for it? Unless he gives away his rights. But what if he dies? Should his heirs continue to benefit? When could this work/invention be in the public domain (IF there's such a thing)?

I've been starting to read Hayek now. I was considering the famous PA question which made Rob turn me into a slaverer. I'm ready to say I see things how they are now. I'll talk about that later on.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 00:16
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Oh wow, I've missed a lot. I spent the holidays with family and away from my computer and the sheer number of posts I would have to catch up on has deterred me from returning, but now I'm back! How's it going folks?

I thought you was dead dog. Glad to see you back.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 00:19
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Things are going well here. There have been interesting developments. Now with you, the thread is complete (JLocke seems to have disappeared forever). As you will notice, too much asking got my head jump started...

A question: what is the though about intellectual right laws and inheritance? The thing is, let's say guy X invents something or writes a book. I assume we agree he should benefit for life for it? Unless he gives away his rights. But what if he dies? Should his heirs continue to benefit? When could this work/invention be in the public domain (IF there's such a thing)?

I've been starting to read Hayek now. I was considering the famous PA question which made Rob turn me into a slaverer. I'm ready to say I see things how they are now. I'll talk about that later on.

Yeah JLocke told me he was leaving the site. He won't be back according to what he told me.

I'm too drunk to comment fully, but I don't believe in IP as they stand, mostly because they require a government to enforce. There's quite a bit written in the libertarian area about IP, you can find some books for free on mises.org regarding anti-IP law.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 00:21
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Hey guys, I found a cute girl that loves Hayek:

Cute is a stretch. I'd say bang-able is more realistic. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 00:26
I'm new to the forums, but it's great to see that there are libertarians here.  Libertarians can be pretty marginalized...never expected to see so many in one place outside of an explicitly libertarian site.

Then again, this is the internet :P

I am not sure if I am ready to wholeheartedly embrace libertarianism and all it means, but I am a minarchist.  I probably fall somewhere between Goldwater conservative and pure libertarian, but I value libertarian justifications more than conservative ones (which make no sense to me, to be honest).  The trouble I have is when libertarians argue that we have no natural right to privacy or that government should not enforce laws regarding privacy.  I know Rothbard made arguments like this, and, like many of his other arguments, I doubt I'll ever agree.

So yeah.  I might be conservative, I might be libertarian, but I know I have deep respect for libertarian philosophy.  Agree with many of the premises, but not always the conclusions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 00:44
Welcome to the forum. I've read a lot of Rothbard and I'm not sure I know what you mean about his anti-privacy stance. Of course, in a fully free society, the right to privacy reduces to the right one has to their property, but I've never heard him argue against privacy in a state of where government exists.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 00:58
Quote It might, however, be charged that Smith does not have the right to print such a statement, because Jones has a “right to privacy” (his “human” right) which Smith does not have the right to violate. But is there really such a right to privacy? How can there be? How can there be a right to prevent Smith y force from disseminating knowledge which he possesses? Surely there can be no such right. Smith owns his own body and therefore has the property right to own the knowledge he has inside his head, including his knowledge about Jones. And therefore he has the corollary right to print and disseminate that knowledge. In short, as in the case of the “human right” to free speech, there is no such thing as a right to privacy except the right to protect one’s property from invasion. The only right “to privacy” is the right to protect one’s property from being invaded by someone else. In brief, no one has the right to burgle someone else’s home, or to wiretap someone’s phone lines. Wiretapping is properly a crime not because of some vague and woolly “invasion of a ‘right to privacy’,” but because it is an invasion of the property right of the person being wiretapped.

http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/sixteen.asp

It's hard to tell from this document alone exactly how far Rothbard's belief that there is no right to privacy stretches, but this isn't the only document addressing it (I'll have to seek a couple others out tomorrow).  I've gotten into arguments with libertarians before about whether, for example, a video of an act which involved the invasion of privacy of the victim should be illegal.  Most libertarians I've met say it shouldn't, since the video itself has no moral status and no one should be obligated to direct their eyes away from anything--they are, after all, simply utilizing their own property.  So distribution of a video documenting any illegal act, including a violation of privacy, should be legal by that logic.

I'll go into my arguments if necessary, but I'm curious as to whether some of the libertarians in this thread agree.  I hate jumping in on this topic, because it's extreme--it involves emotional issues, if you take it as far as it will go, and it leads to the assumption that those of us who advocate privacy rights advocate them simply for these emotional reasons.  That might play a part, but I believe privacy is a part of property, and not just in cases like the one Rothbard outlined.  An unlibertarian assumption?  Quite possibly.  But like I said, I'm curious to see what others think.

I know IP's a contentious question for libertarians, and it was addressed earlier.  This might fall into the same category.

Since I do believe limited government is acceptable, I'm obviously for enforcing what I believe to be natural privacy rights (and yes, yes, I KNOW it is not necessary to presume natural law in order to advocate libertarianism).  Anarchism is a different animal, but an anarcho-capitalist society wouldn't necessarily be lawless--I would still see justification for confiscation of property which depicted a violation of a victim's privacy rights.

Again, I admit this post is quick and not as good as it could be.  Just wanted to flesh out my major contention with libertarianism a bit.  I'm not expecting any answers, just explaining.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 01:05
I agree with Rothbard's assessment in that that quote. Like I said, you right to privacy derives solely from your right to your property. Anything outside of that I really see an an invalid application of rights.

I'm a little curious. Why is confiscation of property justified by government, but by no other institution in your mind?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 01:07
Ah, I never said confiscation of property was not justified by any other institution.  Indeed, government action can only be justifiable if the same action were justifiable for another institution/individual.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 01:10
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Hey guys, I found a cute girl that loves Hayek:

Cute is a stretch. I'd say bang-able is more realistic. 


Maybe if she cut the glasses and got a different hair cut. Now she's beyond bookish.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 02:01
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Hey guys, I found a cute girl that loves Hayek:

Cute is a stretch. I'd say bang-able is more realistic. 


Maybe if she cut the glasses and got a different hair cut. Now she's beyond bookish.
 
 
I like glasses on a chick


Time always wins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 07:12
Originally posted by Hanyou Hanyou wrote:

I'm new to the forums, but it's great to see that there are libertarians here.  Libertarians can be pretty marginalized...never expected to see so many in one place outside of an explicitly libertarian site.

Then again, this is the internet :P

I am not sure if I am ready to wholeheartedly embrace libertarianism and all it means, but I am a minarchist.  I probably fall somewhere between Goldwater conservative and pure libertarian, but I value libertarian justifications more than conservative ones (which make no sense to me, to be honest).  The trouble I have is when libertarians argue that we have no natural right to privacy or that government should not enforce laws regarding privacy.  I know Rothbard made arguments like this, and, like many of his other arguments, I doubt I'll ever agree.

So yeah.  I might be conservative, I might be libertarian, but I know I have deep respect for libertarian philosophy.  Agree with many of the premises, but not always the conclusions.


I'm a conservative libertarian.  Big smile

And welcome!  From where do you hail in NC?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 07:19
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Hanyou Hanyou wrote:

I'm new to the forums, but it's great to see that there are libertarians here.  Libertarians can be pretty marginalized...never expected to see so many in one place outside of an explicitly libertarian site.

Then again, this is the internet :P

I am not sure if I am ready to wholeheartedly embrace libertarianism and all it means, but I am a minarchist.  I probably fall somewhere between Goldwater conservative and pure libertarian, but I value libertarian justifications more than conservative ones (which make no sense to me, to be honest).  The trouble I have is when libertarians argue that we have no natural right to privacy or that government should not enforce laws regarding privacy.  I know Rothbard made arguments like this, and, like many of his other arguments, I doubt I'll ever agree.

So yeah.  I might be conservative, I might be libertarian, but I know I have deep respect for libertarian philosophy.  Agree with many of the premises, but not always the conclusions.


I'm a conservative libertarian.  Big smile

And welcome!  From where do you hail in NC?


Our number increases by the day!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 07:29
Happy new year, llama.  Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2011 at 20:10
Epiphany
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