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Theriver
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2010
Location: Lisbon Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 181
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 02:38 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
Loudness and aggression is the reason for some people, but you can't generalize at all. I just find metal cheesy and ridiculous, almost nothing is too loud and aggressive. |
I do find cheesy as well...weird....i don't know really why. and i do found it often demonstrative.
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Prog Geo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2010
Location: Athens (Greece)
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Points: 2555
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 04:14 |
Some people can't stand the heavy guitars.I don't understand it but it happens.Unfortunately!
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
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Points: 14258
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 04:53 |
Prog metal is awesome but I do not like screechy growly death METAL VOCALS.
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Atoms
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 12 2010
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 546
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 05:50 |
I don't like Prog metal because I havn't found anything interesting in it, when I listen to it, I just hear the same song all the time, but I do however like Post-Metal since I'm very hooked on the experimental part of bands like Tool. I'm always drawn to the more experimental and jazzy side of music, and I feel that Prog Metal doesn't really fill those needs for me.
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yanch
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 03 2010
Location: Lowell, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 3247
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 06:06 |
Atoms wrote:
I don't like Prog metal because I havn't found anything interesting in it, when I listen to it, I just hear the same song all the time, but I do however like Post-Metal since I'm very hooked on the experimental part of bands like Tool. I'm always drawn to the more experimental and jazzy side of music, and I feel that Prog Metal doesn't really fill those needs for me. |
This is about how I feel. There is also something about some of the singers too. Some, not all, remind me of 80's hair band vocalists and I never liked that style of singing.
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Formentera Lady
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 20 2010
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1795
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 06:28 |
Manuel wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
I know you are a musician. Cert1fied's Scenes from A Memory review is a good analysis of the problems in the prog metal approach. Anyway, this in a nutshell is my problem:
1. The accent in prog rock is heavily on melodic exploration along a clear melodic path. I don't mind the often slow pace of the music because it is developing all the time, moving forward. A lot of times, it is not clear in prog metal where the song is heading. Nor is there much melodic exploration. It is difficult to explore - once you bring in those crushing metal riffs, you have to find melodies that go along with the riffs and there's not all that broad a range of melodies that work with heavy riffs. In absolute terms, anything can be broad and exploratory, of course, but I am obviously comparing it to prog rock here. There's not much melodic adventure in prog metal. Essentially, once you get past the complications and technicalities, it's good ol' metal music.
2. But it ought to still work as metal music, right? No, because metal music is driven by riffs. When you listen to Metallica or Slayer's 80s songs, there is a sort of mathematical progression in the riffs each time the verses are played. That gives me something to focus on when there's not much happening melodically (especially Slayer). But prog metal, especially the melodic side of it, draws from heavy metal and particularly from 80s pop metal, which is essentially a heavier kind of hard rock. Not too highly engrossing riffs-wise. What prog metal bands do is to write complicated riffs instead. Again, complicated riffs only sound interesting in isolation and not in the context of a song as they don't by themselves propel movement. Essentially, prog metal could be described as having an idealistic approach of getting the best out of both prog rock and metal but rarely succeeding in practice. It comes across often as a pastiche of lots of interesting ideas that could not somehow be bound together as well they ought to be for my taste.
3. A big problem that comes with the metal sound is the base becomes rigid. You might play a minute or two of reggae over it, a minute of hip-hop later, whatever, but the base is undeniably metal. Prog rock bands were often able to develop their own unique base. In fact, superficial similarities like the use of organs or classical influence were all that Yes, Genesis and ELP had in common. Fundamentally, they were as different as three bands could be from each other. That is difficult to achieve for prog metal bands because they all share the same base: metal. You can add your own colour and twist to it but at the end of the day you are all playing metal. It would not do to say that likewise prog rock bands are all playing rock because it's rock in a loose sense to begin with and what is rock, further, is not so easily identifiable as metal. Particularly, modern metal is defined by 80s crunch, so the common base becomes swiftly evident.
4. Lastly, even after all these reasons are overlooked, remains the unfortunate preference for 80s pop metal cliches or 90s pop by prog metal bands. If I could at least find some originality in the dimension of emotional expression, which is ultimately the most important part of music, other considerations become easy to forgive. But I don't really want to hear LaBrie sing like those very pop metal singers I want to avoid, the same plastic and faceless approach to singing. The playing too is precise and calculated rather than expressive. This is something particularly surprising for me because metal playing in the 80s was raw and often sloppy, emphasising speed and aggression over precision. However, prog metal musicians seem to be influenced more by Malmsteen or technical metal like Megadeth.
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You are indeed on target, I could not say it better.
One thing I could add is the fact that the 80s influence is quite predominant, forgetting about the legacy of the 70s hard rock or metal bands, like Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, etc. Their sound was original and distinct, not like the metal of today. I find it very hard to see a difference of style on today's bands, and most guitarist have the same sound (The Eddie Van Halen sound to be more specific). You could very easily tell Ritchie Blackmore from Tommy Iomi, or Jimmy Page for example, which is not really the case today. |
Completely agree.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 06:31 |
For me it's not a matter of like or dislike, but until I discovered this site, I always considered the two mutually exclusive, and since I have found so much other material on this site, I have no interest in exploring it at this moment. No disrespect to those who do like it. I did get an album by Altihea before they were added to this site due to the blurb on CD Baby, which didn't really say they were metal. I think it's alright.
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 06 2010 at 06:34
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13373
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 08:52 |
[/QUOTE]
I guess that's true if you're talking about mainstream stuff only, but the 2000s was a spectacular decade for metal if you knew where to look. [/QUOTE]
I hope you are right. I listen to prog metal from time to time, but have not found anything substantially good, maybe because, as you said, did not know where to look, and I truly hope that prog metal finds a way to a more versatile and innovative sound, so more people get into it.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 08:57 |
[/QUOTE]
You are indeed on target, I could not say it better.
One thing I could add is the fact that the 80s influence is quite predominant, forgetting about the legacy of the 70s hard rock or metal bands, like Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, etc. Their sound was original and distinct, not like the metal of today. I find it very hard to see a difference of style on today's bands, and most guitarist have the same sound (The Eddie Van Halen sound to be more specific). You could very easily tell Ritchie Blackmore from Tommy Iomi, or Jimmy Page for example, which is not really the case today. [/QUOTE] Completely agree. [/QUOTE]
It's interesting because I remember hearing Alan Holdsworth with Gong and noticed the same distortion levels and sustain of Van Halen. Of course Van Halen was deeply influenced by Holdsworth. The riffs, the technique, and the sound. To get that sound one would have to surely apply a full-lock sustaining sound. If you listen to Holdsworth's soloing on Soft Machine Bundles, you may pick it up.....again, you may not. When Holdsworth plays power chords with Gong, use an EQ or try to imagine the chords without the other instruments and it sounds like metal. Actually heavier than Steve Hillage. (Live Herald). and a bit more like Van Halen.
Van Halen was also infuenced by Jeff Beck. I'm going the distance for him and I hate his music. He can actually play decent but is thought of in the vain of a cartoon character. The reference you make which is based on the difference in players from the 70's is telling. Not just their sound was different but, their approach in what is defined as practices. They were diverse players but their methods of development were quite different from 80's guitarists. I felt putrid over the "Buzz Saw" sound. Tom Schlotz, Lonesome Dave Peverett, Randy Bachman, Mark Farner, and Leslie West. It's too easy to get away with cheating in the usage of this sound. Luther Grosvenor from Spooky Tooth had the Toni Iommi sound on "The Last Puff". His distortion level was comparable to the nightmares listed above however he had that British Blues Boom sound and it was very complimenting to the music. When you hear Blackmore solo in "Lazy" from Machine Head, Rory Gallagher on "Live In Europe" and Clapton on "Crossroads" you wonder why the sound had to change? Andy Powell or even Scott Gorham and Brian Robertson from Thin Lizzy had a more diverse approach to the usage of distortion.
Edited by TODDLER - December 06 2010 at 08:58
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SaltyJon
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 08 2008
Location: Location
Status: Offline
Points: 28772
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 09:03 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
it has nothing to do with whether or not it's prog metal, some people just don't like music that they don't like
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13373
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 09:11 |
TODDLER wrote:
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You are indeed on target, I could not say it better.
One thing I could add is the fact that the 80s influence is quite predominant, forgetting about the legacy of the 70s hard rock or metal bands, like Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, etc. Their sound was original and distinct, not like the metal of today. I find it very hard to see a difference of style on today's bands, and most guitarist have the same sound (The Eddie Van Halen sound to be more specific). You could very easily tell Ritchie Blackmore from Tommy Iomi, or Jimmy Page for example, which is not really the case today. [/QUOTE] Completely agree. [/QUOTE]
It's interesting because I remember hearing Alan Holdsworth with Gong and noticed the same distortion levels and sustain of Van Halen. Of course Van Halen was deeply influenced by Holdsworth. The riffs, the technique, and the sound. To get that sound one would have to surely apply a full-lock sustaining sound. If you listen to Holdsworth's soloing on Soft Machine Bundles, you may pick it up.....again, you may not. When Holdsworth plays power chords with Gong, use an EQ or try to imagine the chords without the other instruments and it sounds like metal. Actually heavier than Steve Hillage. (Live Herald). and a bit more like Van Halen.
Van Halen was also infuenced by Jeff Beck. I'm going the distance for him and I hate his music. He can actually play decent but is thought of in the vain of a cartoon character. The reference you make which is based on the difference in players from the 70's is telling. Not just their sound was different but, their approach in what is defined as practices. They were diverse players but their methods of development were quite different from 80's guitarists. I felt putrid over the "Buzz Saw" sound. Tom Schlotz, Lonesome Dave Peverett, Randy Bachman, Mark Farner, and Leslie West. It's too easy to get away with cheating in the usage of this sound. Luther Grosvenor from Spooky Tooth had the Toni Iommi sound on "The Last Puff". His distortion level was comparable to the nightmares listed above however he had that British Blues Boom sound and it was very complimenting to the music. When you hear Blackmore solo in "Lazy" from Machine Head, Rory Gallagher on "Live In Europe" and Clapton on "Crossroads" you wonder why the sound had to change? Andy Powell or even Scott Gorham and Brian Robertson from Thin Lizzy had a more diverse approach to the usage of distortion. [/QUOTE]
Once I read an article on this subject, I think it was on progsheet.com. I just looked for it but could not find it, but stressed the evident difference between guitarists before and after Van Halen. As you mentioned, not just their sound, but their approach was quite different.
I think also the state of the music industry was different and quite influential, since the 60s and 70s were more of a "Be yourself" an allowed bands to be more unique and expressive, whereas in the 80s and 90s music in general was more mainstream, meaning you had to fit into the sound/trend dictated by the industry (You can find references to this in the film "Before the Music Dies"), and it has limited many artists in their output of creative music, not only in rock, but in every genre of music.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 10:58 |
Manuel wrote:
40footwolf wrote:
I guess that's true if you're talking about mainstream stuff only, but the 2000s was a spectacular decade for metal if you knew where to look. |
I hope you are right. I listen to prog metal from time to time, but have not found anything substantially good, maybe because, as you said, did not know where to look, and I truly hope that prog metal finds a way to a more versatile and innovative sound, so more people get into it. |
Indeed, I hope so too. I am generally on the lookout for something really interesting from the prog metal scene and I can't say I have found much. Riverside, Shadow Gallery, Circus Maximus, Adagio (don't know if they are on this site), Silent Force (ditto, very power metal-based, both bands), all decent bands but nothing all that great. When I did stumble upon a really interesting prog metal band ACT, they turned out to be eclectic prog according to this website. I also remember reading CCVP's review of their album The Last Epic, saying that they were like Andromeda but not a patch and based on Extension of the Wish, I neither found much common ground nor found ACT inferior, quite the opposite. So my way of looking at music must be very different from most prog metal fans.
Edited by rogerthat - December 06 2010 at 11:00
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The Monodrone
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2010
Location: Indiana, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4489
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 11:10 |
There is definitely some prog metal I do enjoy, though I find a lot of it to be bland and predictable.
That being said, I also find many bands in any other prog sub-genre to be bland and predictable... It's just a matter of what hits you musically and what doesn't.
Edited by ptkc123 - December 06 2010 at 13:04
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 12:14 |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
Prog metal is awesome but I do not like screechy growly death METAL VOCALS. |
death metal vocals aren't screechy
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bartosso
Forum Groupie
Joined: September 01 2010
Location: PL
Status: Offline
Points: 68
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 13:12 |
Prog metal is generally lousy but there are a few bands which are absolutely brilliant - Opeth, Meshuggah, Tool, Riverside are fantastic and I love them really. Decapitated, with their last album, was great too, but their drummer died in an accident so I don't know if they're going to continue. Fantastic drummer by the way.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13634
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 13:22 |
Owing to recommendations given to me on a thread I started a few weeks ago, I am exploring a bit of prog metal now. The jury is still out on what I think for the purposes of this thread.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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himtroy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1601
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 13:23 |
I like some prog metal, but that which I don't I dislike for the same reason as regular metal...screaming/growling. I've never been able to take any music seriously that has a grown man growling like a beast or screaming like a girl.
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Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell?
I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance.
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Xanatos
Forum Senior Member
Banned
Joined: February 01 2010
Location: Latin America
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Points: 305
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 13:36 |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
Prog metal is awesome but I do not like screechy growly death METAL VOCALS. |
This
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silverpot
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Joined: March 19 2008
Location: Sweden
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 14:16 |
Normally, I don't much appreciate any kind of metal. I find it boring and soulless and because it's got a prog prefix doesn't make it any more interesting. However; I like some Pain of Salvation now and then and was surprised to find that PA has classified them as prog metal. Conclusion; never say never.
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Languagegeek
Forum Newbie
Joined: June 18 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 38
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Posted: December 06 2010 at 15:08 |
I used to listen to a few bands like Tool, and enjoyed Metallica back in the pre-Justice for all days. I haven't given any of this a listen in 15 or more years. Why? I think it's because I'm a genuinely happy guy who blissfully ignores the idiocies of the world instead of getting righteously p.o.'ed about them like I used to. These days, I'm completely into Krautrock, Canterbury, Psychedelic, Zeuhl: more philosophical and imaginative than aggressive and raw. The musicianship in prog metal might be superb, but to my ears it's a very monotonous ride both emotionally and musically.
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