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Slartibartfast 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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 Posted: December 03 2010 at 19:32 |
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 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I believe Crossover shouldn't exist, it is almost another Prog Related.
Iván |
I would never attempt to write a sub genre definition/description for a
sub genre I don't like. I suspect someone may be a little bitter at
having his definition of a particular sub changed. But frankly the previous definition of Prog Related pretty much excluded all the artists that were already included. And if you don't like Crossover, Prog Related, or any other sub, don't get mad, just move on.
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 03 2010 at 19:34
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 19:37 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
Good post Dean, but people are just upset about NIN, Bjork and Tori Amos, they don't want to debate with you actual discussion points.
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Maybe because the other points don't deserve ridicule, unlike the inclusion of those artists on this site.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 20:02 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
]
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I believe Crossover shouldn't exist, it is almost another Prog Related.
Iván |
I would never attempt to write a sub genre definition/description for a
sub genre I don't like. I suspect someone may be a little bitter at
having his definition of a particular sub changed. But frankly the previous definition of Prog Related pretty much excluded all the artists that were already included. And if you don't like Crossover, Prog Related, or any other sub, don't get mad, just move on.
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Lets start from the beginning: - The first modification that excluded all the bands from Prog Related, was not made by me, my definition used the term "influential OR influenced OR recognized as important for Prog development" the two "OR" were changed for the word "AND" to exclude further silly suggestions, but not by me (even when I agreed).
- I don't care if a definition is replaced for another one, even if the modified is mine, because I'm not paid for having a definition here, so I loose nothing.
- I don't dislike Prog Related or Crossover, I believe that both shouldn't co-exist, because both are more or less the same, and IMO Prog Related should stay.
Just to end, I don't get mad, simply I give my opinion to which I'm entitled, and still believe that: - There should be only one Metal sub-genre
- Crossover shouldn't exist as long as we have Prog Related
- No territorial based sub genre should exist, including RPI and Indo Prog/Raga Prog
If you like my opinion, great, if you don't it's OK by me, but nobody can ask me not to give my opinions.
Iván .
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 03 2010 at 20:04
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 20:36 |
Actually, I've always enjoyed reading your opinions and reviews whether or not I agree with them. 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 20:59 |
It's mutual, you always make me smile from the moment I see your avatar.
Iván
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 21:05 |
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Yeah Ivan is always respectful regardless of the subject matter. I would be in the front line with him anyday. Traditionilist views with a grown up attitude. Crossover rules P/R all the way IMO..... P/R could potentially be removed, but I am not for that either,I respect the genre tag and the efforts people have put in too much....
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Lark the Starless
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 15 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 1902
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 21:11 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
It's mutual, you always make me smile from the moment I see your avatar.
Iván |
Get a room, you two 
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 03 2010 at 21:48 |
This is not the thread for it, but I agree with Ivan on two points. Having the distinction between Crossover and PR would make some sense if Kate Bush, Metallica or Muse are shifted to prog genre baskets. As it stands, the difference is rather semantic. Post-metal should ideally be lumped with post rock and tech-extreme and prog metal should be just one prog metal genre. But, knowing metalheads, we should be grateful there aren't a hundred prog metal genres already here like blackened prog metal, slam prog metal, power prog metal, whatever, just jk.  I think RPI bands too could be classified into appropriate genres like symph/eclectic, but if it's broken up, then there will be suggestions that Krautrock too is just a regional classification and reclassifying bands like Can or Faust could get messy.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 00:24 |
Not even trying to be funny... Neither  So no vote for me
Edited by JJLehto - December 04 2010 at 00:24
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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 01:26 |
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Crossover easily.
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Anderson III
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 25 2007
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 708
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 05:30 |
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Radiohead, Mike Oldfield, Björk, Talk Talk... We have a winner!
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"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and cannot remain silent" - Victor Hugo
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 05:55 |
Man With Hat wrote:
Not to sidetrack the thread but...are there really neo kraut and neo avant bands in crossover?? (I thought that avant-pop bands or poppy prog folk bands were kept in their respective subgenres...although admittedly don't know much about either) |
I can't name specific bands because they are even more obscure and unmemorable than "pure" ZART bands, but during my three year tenure doing Xover evaluations the ZART team passed a number of bands over to us for evaluation that they thought too poppy for Avant/RIO. Ones that do stand out are Deerhoof and Chrome Hoof (unrelated), with the latter even showing Zeuhl influences.
Neo Krautrock of course doesn't really exist, there was a minor renaissance in Krautrock during the turn of the century, but Krautrock influenced bands started appearing in the late 70s with the eclectic Art Pop bands like Japan and Ultravox! who adopted the austere synth-driven style of the more electronic Krautrock artists and that influence permeated many Post-punk bands at the time. It could be argued that Radiohead and Talk Talk are of that ilk.
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What?
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friso
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 24 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 06:24 |
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Well, I love some of the neo-prog albums. Arena is my first progressive rock band. Crossover is to poppy for me, but Kayak is a great example of a crossover band I really like (though their older albums are symphonic prog in my opinion).
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 06:28 |
JJLehto wrote:
Not even trying to be funny...
Neither
So no vote for me
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Really? Not even The Dear Hunter? 
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 06:44 |
stonebeard wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Good post Dean, but people are just upset about NIN, Bjork and Tori Amos, they don't want to debate with you actual discussion points.
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Maybe because the other points don't deserve ridicule, unlike the inclusion of those artists on this site.
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I think the occasional contentious addition does little long term harm - whether those artists were added or not wouldn't change the opinion of too many people to be honest - those that throw their arms up in horror at NIN, Amos and Bjork did so at Radiohead, Split Endz and Japan too. If we were to evalauate Pure Reasons Revolution now in light of their last two albums, would they have been granted an easy passage into Crossover on the strength of The Dark Third alone?
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What?
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Rune2000
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 23 2004
Location: STHLM, Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 1833
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 06:58 |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 07:09 |
It all boils down to whether or not you are big tenter or a small tenter. I prefer the big tent. I love the music of those most accepted as prog, but I'm just not particularly restrictive. Some things are obviously not, some things are borderline, some artist additions will be controversial. But in the end, everything is subject to debate.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34076
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 08:08 |
next: Symphonic prog vs Raga/indi prog 
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 10:06 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
It all boils down to whether or not you are big tenter or a small tenter. I prefer the big tent. I love the music of those most accepted as prog, but I'm just not particularly restrictive.
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The merits or otherwise of a band is an entirely different debate from that of whether it is prog so whether someone likes Tori Amos does not and should not have anything to do with whether she should be considered prog.
Edited by rogerthat - December 04 2010 at 10:15
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Anthony H.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 11 2010
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 6088
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Posted: December 04 2010 at 10:17 |
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Crossover Prog vs. Neo-Prog
